Gardai unaware of signs and wasting their time

Kipperhell

Iwas cycling on my way to work on one of the combined cycle/foot paths when I saw 3 garadi. One of the stops me and tells me to get off the path and cycle on the road. I pointed out there was a sign less than 5 feet away that said it was a combined foot/cycle path all he had to do was look at the front. He told me he didn't have to do anything.
He preceeded to tell me it was an offense to cycle on the path and I was to cycle on the road. As this is a dangerous road where traffic merges, there a bus lane and 5 axle trucks can go on it leaving the city I thought it too dangerous. I said I wouldn't go on the road. So I hoped on my bike and cycled off telling him h ewas wrong.
I cycled up the path and came to where it joined a cycle track. I was unable to get onto the track as it was full of parked cars. I proceeed untill I could get on the road. THe cop mentined earlier manaes to catch up on me and pulls me over. He then takes my details and says I'll get a summons. I laughed and said he would hear from his superier first.
I rang the station spoke to a sergant and explained the sign and the attitude. THe sergant said he never heard or saw these signs before! Now they are up well over a year. Hhe then says he will talk to the officer to find out the story.
He rang back and told me that these were REAL signs and complained DCC never told them about them .(well over a year old) He said there was just a misunderstanding but I did cycle on the path. Now that was because gardai are unable to keep the cycle tracks free while harrasing people cycling. He claimed these new signs were riddiculious and that the majoprity of complaints the traffic corp deal with are cyclists on the paths. Never heard such sh*t in my life!

Victor

If it is the circular combined cycle and pedestrian sign - that has no legal standing. :eek:

_Kaiser_

Hang on. If DCC are putting up signs then it's their and the Gardai's responsibility to ensure they're legal, not the average person who's only abiding by them.

Bottom line here: Another incompetent, arrogant ("He told me he didn't have to do anything.") clown with a badge (by the sound of it his Sargent isn't any better either) that tries to cover this up by intimidating the public when they're shown to be in the wrong.

OP: well done. I'd suggest following up with the local Superintendent, but with the Gardai investigating the Gardai that's a bit pointless. Maybe fire off an email to the new Ombudsman tho.

cyclopath2001

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Bottom line here: Another incompetent, arrogant ("He told me he didn't have to do anything.") clown with a badge (by the sound of it his Sargent isn't any better either) that tries to cover this up by intimidating the public when they're shown to be in the wrong.

The Garda merely directed the cyclist not to follow the unlawful direction given by Dublin City Council. He was doing his job and correctly informed the cyclist that he should not ride on the path. He could have fined him at that point but did not as the DCC sign was plainly misleading.

The law does provide for shared cycleway/footways but they must be preceded by road sign RUS009 (White bike/blue background) or RUS009a (black bike/white background/red circle) and the cycling and walking areas clearly separated by marking RRM022. While there is no legal minimum width for a footway, a cycleway must be at least 1 metre wide for each direction with the two cycleways clearly marked. Very few off-road cycleways conform to the legal requirements.

Dublin City Council has been using incorrect cycle track signs and surface markings for a number of years, I thought it was common knowledge by now. (Except that is, to their own inspectors).

Part of this confusion stems from the illegitimate signs (pedestrians/bike on blue background) appearing in the now-suppressed DTO cycle track guidelines. These signs are used (presumably legally) in the UK.

Correct course of action is to complain to the Gardai about the unlawful road signs, who I think, have the power to direct the City Council to take them down.

Why they don't take it up with the City Council in the first place, I don't know.

Of course, this being Ireland, the powers that be, might just sneak in an amendment to the regulations making them legal.

John R

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The Garda merely directed the cyclist not to follow the unlawful direction given by Dublin City Council. He was doing his job and correctly informed the cyclist that he should not ride on the path. He could have fined him at that point but did not as the DCC sign was plainly misleading.

No he did not. He was ignorant of the presence of the sign and when informed of it both the gardai in question and his superior showed no sign of being aware of the illegality of the sign either.

If he had told the OP the points you have made I'm sure the OP would not have had an issue with it but that is not what happened.

AlekSmart

Jesu Christo...How much more of this type of Garda Vs Public interaction are we going to have to read about before SOMEBODY realizes that An Garda Siochana have one M A J O R problem with their training and ongoing developmental structures.

Were I to succeed Noel Conroy I would immediately seek to set up clinics,similar to the "Blind Tasting" sessions used by most major consumer related entities.

The current Garda ethos revolves around the force believing itself to be under attack from ALL sides of the Public Fence.
This is NOT true,however the force appears to require its members to fully subscribe to this notion if they are to make any progress in career terms.

The Gardai really DO need to get involved with both communities and individuals in a meaningful manner rather than the tokenist approach presently favoured.

If Garda management don`t wake up and smell the coffee they riusk the force being sidelined rapidly and thats NOT a desirable thing :mad:

cyclopath2001

John R wrote:

No he did not. He was ignorant of the presence of the sign and when informed of it both the gardai in question and his superior showed no sign of being aware of the illegality of the sign either.

Gardai can have a funny way of expressing themselves. The Garda did not 'see' the cyclepath sign because it was an unlawful sign, but could not tell the OP that it was unlawful because that would be expressing a legal opinion about someone else's actions. What he did tell the OP was not to ride on the footpath, which is what he was doing.

The new 'Rules of the Road' contains no reference to the sign in question, neither do the 1997 regulations.

It would be more productive to get something done about Dublin City Council's sloppy attitude towards the law than to complain about a Garda with poor communications skills.

dodgyme

Hang on a second here. should the OP have to train in some kinda of signage skills legal course for government body interfacing perhaps for three years in UCD before cycling to work? If the answer is no the cyclist was obeying the signage in front of him and the gardai was being an a**hole. Now when the gardai started being an a**hole the cyclists reacted similarly and the Gardai wanted to show the cyclist who was boss. The cyclist probably being like alot of cyclists had his principals (& a fine perhap) rang the cop shop and then had to hear a loada of crap about DCC etc which really was none of his business. The gardai should have been spending his/her time doing more productive work then hassling a cyclist especially when the cyclist was doing what he thought was legal.

Slow Motion

Kipperhell wrote:

Iwas cycling on my way to work on one of the combined cycle/foot paths when I saw 3 garadi. One of the stops me and tells me to get off the path and cycle on the road. I pointed out there was a sign less than 5 feet away that said it was a combined foot/cycle path all he had to do was look at the front. He told me he didn't have to do anything.
He preceeded to tell me it was an offense to cycle on the path and I was to cycle on the road. As this is a dangerous road where traffic merges, there a bus lane and 5 axle trucks can go on it leaving the city I thought it too dangerous. I said I wouldn't go on the road. So I hoped on my bike and cycled off telling him h ewas wrong.
I cycled up the path and came to where it joined a cycle track. I was unable to get onto the track as it was full of parked cars. I proceeed untill I could get on the road. THe cop mentined earlier manaes to catch up on me and pulls me over. He then takes my details and says I'll get a summons. I laughed and said he would hear from his superier first.
I rang the station spoke to a sergant and explained the sign and the attitude. THe sergant said he never heard or saw these signs before! Now they are up well over a year. Hhe then says he will talk to the officer to find out the story.
He rang back and told me that these were REAL signs and complained DCC never told them about them .(well over a year old) He said there was just a misunderstanding but I did cycle on the path. Now that was because gardai are unable to keep the cycle tracks free while harrasing people cycling. He claimed these new signs were riddiculious and that the majoprity of complaints the traffic corp deal with are cyclists on the paths. Never heard such sh*t in my life!

Heard a very similar story on the radio yesterday, was that yourself ?

John R

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Gardai can have a funny way of expressing themselves.

LMFAO.

There's a new way to excuse the disgusting attitude displayed by the ignorant little hitlers that the force is littered with.

I suppose the Garda shoving the Shell-to-sea campaigner over a ledge was just his funny way of informing the man that thewre was a dangerous drop nearby. :rolleyes:

cyclopath2001 wrote:

It would be more productive to get something done about Dublin City Council's sloppy attitude towards the law than to complain about a Garda with poor communications skills.

Perhaps the Gardai that you are so sure are aware of this illegal action by DCC should be the ones doing it seeing as upholding the law is what they are (over)paid for.

BrianD3

No he did not. He was ignorant of the presence of the sign and when informed of it both the gardai in question and his superior showed no sign of being aware of the illegality of the sign either

Exactly. It is highly doubtful that the Garda saw the sign, knew it had no legal standing and used this as the basis for pulling the cyclist over.

I bet if you ask the vast majority of Gardai about regulations and signs for cyclepaths, most will have patchy knowledge at best.

What has happened here is the Garda just didn't see the sign and when the cyclist pointed it out to him he was annoyed, instead of backtracking he decided to hide behind his "power".

I would love to see what would happen if this went to court based on the sign having no legal standing. A cyclist brought to court after obeying an (unoffical) sign put up by the authority with responsibility for roads and signage. Result: case thrown out, Gardai and the City Council come out looking like eejits.

daymobrew

Kipperhell wrote:

He rang back and told me that these were REAL signs and complained DCC never told them about them .(well over a year old) He said there was just a misunderstanding but I did cycle on the path. Now that was because gardai are unable to keep the cycle tracks free while harrasing people cycling. He claimed these new signs were riddiculious and that the majoprity of complaints the traffic corp deal with are cyclists on the paths. Never heard such sh*t in my life!

I recommend arranging a meeting with the Sergeant and maybe even the station Super to discuss the (lack of) knowledge of the Gardai and the legality of the signs.

I met my local Sergeant and Super recently with the residents association. It was quite informative, productive and cordial.

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

I would love to see what would happen if this went to court based on the sign having no legal standing. A cyclist brought to court after obeying an (unoffical) sign put up by the authority with responsibility for roads and signage. Result: case thrown out, Gardai and the City Council come out looking like eejits.

Was thinking the same thing there. Front page headline for the tabloids!

SeanW

>_< talk about the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. If this Garda had business removing the cyclist from the footpath, he should have explained why. If not he should have just STFU.

And FFS, even these signs don't have any legal standing, then what the hell are they doing there?

Wishbone Ash

Sometimes the Gardaí are not aware of perfectly legal and official signs. I was pulled over last year by a motorcycle Garda, while travelling southbound on the bus lane in Drumcondra at 10.30am. I explained that the bus lane was operational from 07.00 to 10.00 and from 12.00 to 19.00. He walked back to check the sign himself and then gestured at me to continue - no apology or acknowledgement that it was his mistake which caused the build up of buses behind me.

(While I was pulled up, a few motorists sounded their horns in apparent glee that someone was 'caught'. Typical of many muppets who cannot read signage. :rolleyes:)

corktina

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Sometimes the Gardaí are not aware of perfectly legal and official signs. I was pulled over last year by a motorcycle Garda, while travelling southbound on the bus lane in Drumcondra at 10.30am. I explained that the bus lane was operational from 07.00 to 10.00 and from 12.00 to 19.00. He walked back to check the sign himself and then gestured at me to continue - no apology or acknowledgement that it was his mistake which caused the build up of buses behind me.

(While I was pulled up, a few motorists sounded their horns in apparent glee that someone was 'caught'. Typical of many muppets who cannot read signage. :rolleyes:)

very few people seem to realise that most bus lanes only operate in the peak hours...(dont tell them.... :-) ) Word of caution though, dont they have a solid line outside them? that means you have to travel the full length of them before changing lanes I guess...( i dont)

Wishbone Ash

corktina wrote:

very few people seem to realise that most bus lanes only operate in the peak hours.

In fairness many are 24hour or 7am to 7pm.

corktina wrote:

Word of caution though, dont they have a solid line outside them? that means you have to travel the full length of them before changing lanes I guess...( i dont)

That has been debated here a few times. I think it's acceptable. It's a different continuous line from the standard and it's perfectly acceptable to cross that line to enter an active bus lane (if safe) to pass a vehicle which has stopped to turn right.

cyclopath2001

dodgyme wrote:

Hang on a second here. should the OP have to train in some kinda of signage skills legal course for government body interfacing perhaps for three years in UCD before cycling to work?.

Not at all, the sign is not in the 'Rules of the Road'. For most people that should be all the study that's needed. A vehicle driver must obey any legally valid instruction given by a Garda.

I'm not very interested in trying to defend the Garda's manners, I'm just pointing out how best the OP might apply his time.

John R

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Not at all, the sign is not in the 'Rules of the Road'. For most people that should be all the study that's needed. A vehicle driver must obey any legally valid instruction given by a Garda.

Except that the "Rules of the Road" booklet is not a complete or concise reference of the various applicable laws and if the new version is anything like the old one it will have a disclaimer to this effect.

Just because a particular sign is absent from the book it does mean the sign is not legal and anyone who ignored a sign on this basis would be on very dodgy ground.


The idea that every road user should be expected to know the minutiae of law enough to distinguish which signs manufactured and errected by the authorities are illegal is ridiculous. If the people that create the laws and those that are supposed to enforce them cannot get it right it is a bit much for you to be lecturing anyone else for not being 100% correct either.

Kipperhell

Let's be 100% clear here
1) THe garda in question didn't question the legality of the sign
2) He didn't believe any such sign existed
3) He refused to look at said sign
4) He he followed me and as there were more signs on the route he ignored them
5) His superior didn't question the legality of the sign
6) The sign was up for well over a year and the traffic corp claim to be unaware of the signs

In saying all of that no judge would have fined me

cyclopath2001

Kipperhell wrote:

Let's be 100% clear here
...
In saying all of that no judge would have fined me

While I've every sympathy for you, and would take some delight in Dublin City Council being embarrassed by having the dubious legality of its actions exposed in court, much depends on what you will be summonsed for. If it is that you failed to obey a lawful instruction from a Garda, you're on shaky ground.

Kipperhell

cyclopath2001 wrote:

While I've every sympathy for you, and would take some delight in Dublin City Council being embarrassed by having the dubious legality of its actions exposed in court, much depends on what you will be summonsed for. If it is that you failed to obey a lawful instruction from a Garda, you're on shaky ground.

I certainly did disobey a direct garda instruction as it would have put me in danger! I have also been told I will not be summoned and recived an apology.
While I understand your complaint about poor signage and cycle path design I am quite surprised you would think I should be fined. If the facilities provided are actually safer I think they should be used even if they are poorly indicated.
Unreasobale reaction from the garda and myself but to refuse to look at a sign and deny they exist was certainly nothing about the problems with DCC and legality of signs.
Do you actually beleive that more people complain about cyclists on paths than anthing else? That gardi traffic corp are unaware of these signs existig?

cyclopath2001

Kipperhell wrote:

I am quite surprised you would think I should be fined.

Of course not and I didn't say that.

Kipperhell wrote:

Do you actually beleive that more people complain about cyclists on paths than anthing else?

No, I don't.

Wishbone Ash

John R wrote:

Except that the "Rules of the Road" booklet is not a complete or concise reference of the various applicable laws and if the new version is anything like the old one it will have a disclaimer to this effect

The disclaimer in the new edition is a bit more watered down describing it as an interpretation of the law from a "road safety point of view".

cyclopath2001 wrote:

If it is that you failed to obey a lawful instruction from a Garda, you're on shaky ground.

I agree. Many of the road traffic regulations and general bye-laws are followed by "unless otherwise instructed by a Garda".

godtabh

cyclopath2001 wrote:

If it is that you failed to obey a lawful instruction from a Garda, you're on shaky ground.

As far as I know a Garda cant issue an instruction that is likely to casue harm to yourself or others.

Would that apply here?

cyclopath2001

It would appear that the Garda did not see any extraordinary risk when he gave the instruction.

monument

Kipperhell wrote:

Let's be 100% clear here
1) THe garda in question didn't question the legality of the sign
2) He didn't believe any such sign existed
3) He refused to look at said sign
4) He he followed me and as there were more signs on the route he ignored them
5) His superior didn't question the legality of the sign
6) The sign was up for well over a year and the traffic corp claim to be unaware of the signs

In saying all of that no judge would have fined me

Let's be 100% clear, did you continue to do something the police office told you not to?

{EDIT: Well I should have read the full thread!}

dowlingm

Kipperhell

you were both wrong and your second wrong didn't make his first one right. The Garda should have looked at the sign as a matter of common decency and radioed his base for clarification but having told you not to cycle you disobeyed an instruction from an officer in the course of his duty. It's not up to you to decide whether of not to follow it because in order to do their jobs Gardai have to have those powers. Now the decisions they make during the exercise of those powers is something they have to answer for when citizens makes representation to their superiors.

As for what you could have done. Whether you felt the road was unsafe to ride on was a matter for you to take. It wasn't a motorway or other place cyclists are prohibited. Instead you could have dismounted and walked or even just walked out of sight but by getting on your bike you gave the Garda the two fingers and obviously he wasn't going to let that go.

Fair play to the Sergeant at least for doing as he is supposed to and investigating your complaint and discovering that DCC were once again going on solo runs. DCC can't expect Gardai to help enforce traffic flow if they won't inform the local stations as to changes in the local conditions - in fact aren't they supposed to consult the Gardai *before* making these kinds of changes?