Guinness, Murphy's Petition/Campaign

kraggy

Hi folks,

As we have seen from the Mars situation, it is clearly evident that consumer voice can be heard loud and clear by big companies.

I was wondering, what are your thoughts on starting a petition or campaign of some sorts to lobby Guinness and Murphy's to stop using isinglass in the brewing process.

As far as i can make out, this part of the process could indeed be changed to a vegetarian/vegan friendly one without changing the end product whatsoever.

Discuss.:)

r3nu4l

Tell me more about isinglass. I have heard something about it. If it can be removed without affecting the taste then fair enough but honestly, coming between a man and his stout could be dangerous!:)

kraggy

It's used in the brewing process as a filter but removed before the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass

Peanut

I think the Mars campaign worked because it was UK based. I don't think the numbers are big enough here for a successful campaign.

Also, the Mars story had the advantage of being a reaction to a retrograde step that the company made (in the eyes of the campaigners at least).

With Guinness, they seem to have been using Isinglass for a long time, so there's not much of a story for the media to pick up on.

However it was mentioned in the Herald (maybe others) about two years ago or so. The standard company line is that isinglass is the only suitable agent for clarifying the product - this does seem like pure BS though given that there are other vegetarian stouts, and the (now sadly defunct) Dublin Brewing Company's stout (and their other beers) were all clarified using Irish moss.

But still, it could be worth trying. Guinness are surely vulnerable to a public perception that their beer is made using fish extract, even though they will say there is hardly any left in the final product (which does sound reasonable).

Tar.Aldarion

Aren't guinness sales suffering in the last while too? MAybe we can hit them when they are down.

Also, they just made 100's and 1000's vegetarian. Stopped using cochineal (carmine). Missus went in to get some a couple of days ago, they weren't veggie but it said line discontinued or something. In another shop they suddenly had a suitable for vegetarians line and no more carmine.

sweet-rasmus

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Also, they just made 100's and 1000's vegetarian. Stopped using cochineal (carmine). Missus went in to get some a couple of days ago, they weren't veggie but it said line discontinued or something. In another shop they suddenly had a suitable for vegetarians line and no more carmine.

i can't talk for myself, can i?! :P

i emailed Supercook to thank them for the change in ingredients.


EDIT: if you want to get a petition started, i suggest you email the irish vegetarian society. ask them what's been done and how we go about giving it another shot. having their backing in the petition would be a start. though, i'm sure they've tried to talk to guinness before.

tony 2 tone

kraggy wrote:

Hi folks,
As far as i can make out, this part of the process could indeed be changed to a vegetarian/vegan friendly one without changing the end product whatsoever.

How?

JacobM

Worse is not better but is the converse true?

It seems like it could be very small amount that effect texture and foam in the end product. But not flavor or nutritional content. Would have know if it is indeed in the final product. From the name alone I would conclude that it is. Or it is not.

How many fish have to die already?

Tar.Aldarion

don't know how many fish atall, anybody know?
It does not affect flavour etc Jacob.

zielarz

Are other brands of beer vegatarian?

Peanut

Depends on the beer. I believe the UK veg. soc or somewhere similar had a list up.

edit: There's one here but it may not be up to date.

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah, most are.

zielarz

i cannot find Bulmers (Magners in UK) on the list :mad: i hope they are vegetarian..

Nature Boy

Try emailing them...

Mentalmiss

zielarz wrote:

i cannot find Bulmers (Magners in UK) on the list :mad: i hope they are vegetarian..

I think that someone has checked this out for you already and you seem to be out of luck
Shortcut to: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7361

fragrantdog

I know this thread is super old but it's one of the first results for 'Guinness Vegetarian Petition' so it's worth mentioning that there's now a petition for exactly that!

https://www.change.org/petitions/make-guinness-vegetarian-vegan-friendly

Staff Infection

The Extra Stout Guinness brewed in Canada is vegan friendly according to this website so it can be made vegan friendly.

Back in Ireland Trouble Brewing are a Craft Brewer in Kildare and make a porter called Dark Arts. I know it's not a stout, it's a porter which is a lighter stout but it will give you the black beer with a white head look and seeing as it's not filtered there should be no need to worry about Isinglass but I'm open to correction.

Benny_Cake

Dungarvan Brewing Company produce some excellent beers, including stout, which are completely unfiltered so they should be vegetarian and vegan friendly.

Another is Eight Degrees Brewing in Cork who produce a stout, a red ale, and a golden ale using Irish Moss to filter (I can't find where I read that right now but I'm almost certain that's the case!).

So there are alternatives, but it would be nice to be able to get something on tap on a night out. No pubs offering craft beer where I am unfortunately.

Edit: Almost forgot, all bottled Porterhouse beer, with the exception of TSB and Oyster Stout is veggie-friendly.

henryporter

Youngs Chocolate Stout is vegetarian and delicious too

the beer revolu

Staff Infection wrote: »

Back in Ireland Trouble Brewing are a Craft Brewer in Kildare and make a porter called Dark Arts. I know it's not a stout, it's a porter which is a lighter stout but it will give you the black beer with a white head look and seeing as it's not filtered there should be no need to worry about Isinglass but I'm open to correction.

What one brewer calls stout, another brewer might call porter.
The words have been used and misused so much that they are now, in my opinion and that of many others, interchangeable. Dark Arts is no lighter than most of the black beers sold as stout in Ireland.
Very nice it is, too.

I would urge anyone worried about isinglass in beer to seek out beers (lots of good Irish micros widely available now) without it and not bother with Guinness or Murphy's .

Staff Infection

the beer revolu wrote: »

What one brewer calls stout, another brewer might call porter.
The words have been used and misused so much that they are now, in my opinion and that of many others, interchangeable. Dark Arts is no lighter than most of the black beers sold as stout in Ireland.
Very nice it is, too.

I would urge anyone worried about isinglass in beer to seek out beers (lots of good Irish micros widely available now) without it and not bother with Guinness or Murphy's .

Grand, to be honest I read the line about a porter being a lighter stout on the Porterhouse's website so took their word on it but I wasn't too sure of any difference to be honest myself. Glad to know the terms are now pretty much interchangeable.

I agree, I've had Dark Arts a number of times both on draft and in bottles and think it's lovely. I've also tried a number of the other Irish Craft beers and they are by and large very nice indeed and I'd personally prefer any of them flavor wise to Guinness or Murphy's regardless of the isinglass issue.

However, I think the issue here is that Guinness, Murphy's and some other big brewers are unnecessarily using an additive (isinglass) which prevents vegetarians and vegans from trying their product (beer/stout etc.) while there are vegetarian and vegan alternative additives out there.

So while there are other drinks made (most of which I would prefer), the issue here is why do Guinness, Murphy's etc. stubbornly continue to use an additive which prevents vegetarians and vegans from enjoying their product when there is an alternative.

Peanut

Staff Infection wrote: »

So while there are other drinks made (most of which I would prefer), the issue here is why do Guinness, Murphy's etc. stubbornly continue to use an additive which prevents vegetarians and vegans from enjoying their product when there is an alternative.

At a guess, some combination of cost of raw material, reliability of supply chain, having some contractual obligations which would be too much hassle to change, or perhaps some modifications that would need to made to the manufacturing process to accommodate an isinglass alternative that would incur an additional cost.

Whatever it is, I don't buy their "but Guiness is special" argument!

Benny_Cake

Peanut wrote: »

At a guess, some combination of cost of raw material, reliability of supply chain, having some contractual obligations which would be too much hassle to change, or perhaps some modifications that would need to made to the manufacturing process to accommodate an isinglass alternative that would incur an additional cost.

Whatever it is, I don't buy their "but Guiness is special" argument!

Yeah of research have gone into making Guinness as bland and inoffensive as possible, maybe they are afraid that dicking around with the filtration process will jeopardise that!

In all seriousness, before I went veggie Smithwicks or Guinness would have been my drink of choice when I went out. None of the pubs in my town are doing craft beer, yet. So I've had to settle for Heineken, which doesn't really satisfy. It'd be nice to have options.

Peanut

Yeah in a moment of over-zealous proselytization for the church of Dublin Brewing Company, I surreptitiously bought a hardcore Guinness drinker a pint of D'arcys Dublin stout back in the day when it was still being made and you could get it on draught in some pubs.

Needless to say he wasn't impressed. "What is this sh*te, it's all sweet?!" I think was the response.

Ah well you can't please all the people all of the time...

fragrantdog

It's very hard to find non-Guinness stouts in pubs in England. Maybe the occasional Murphy's but there's no alternatives really. So it'd be a big thing outside of Ireland for them to switch.

BMJD

+1 for Dungarvan and Dark Arts

perhaps petitioning your local to stock them would be the way forward!