Nature of angels

JoeB-

Hi

I'm wondering what the Catholics / Christians believe as to the nature of angels and demons.

as in

Are they immortal or timeless beings? or did they come into existence 'after' God? Did God create them? (And if not who did?)(What I mean is, if God didn't create the angels then they must exist on a par with God, i.e before creation there was simply God.. and the angels?)

Can they be 'killed' or otherwise cease to exist?

Does God's omniscience extend to angels, demons and the devil? Or can they 'surprise' God with their actions?

The devil is simply a fallen angel, this is correct isn't it? How did he fall? Surely if God is as described then the devil could never have been so silly as to disobey him, the devil would be aware of Gods all powerful nature and his all encompassing love... or did God deliberately hide his nature from the devil in order that the devil would disobey him?)

Does Gods omnipotence extend to the devil, angels and demons?


I'd be very interested in the replies... I'm sure these questions will provoke discussion which is my intention.

Cheers
Joe

PDN

JoeBallantine wrote:

Hi

I'm wondering what the Catholics / Christians believe as to the nature of angels and demons.

as in

Are they immortal or timeless beings? or did they come into existence 'after' God? Did God create them? (And if not who did?)(What I mean is, if God didn't create the angels then they must exist on a par with God, i.e before creation there was simply God.. and the angels?)

Can they be 'killed' or otherwise cease to exist?

Does God's omniscience extend to angels, demons and the devil? Or can they 'surprise' God with their actions?

The devil is simply a fallen angel, this is correct isn't it? How did he fall? Surely if God is as described then the devil could never have been so silly as to disobey him, the devil would be aware of Gods all powerful nature and his all encompassing love... or did God deliberately hide his nature from the devil in order that the devil would disobey him?)

Does Gods omnipotence extend to the devil, angels and demons?


I'd be very interested in the replies... I'm sure these questions will provoke discussion which is my intention.

Cheers
Joe

Hi Joe.

Yes, Christians believe that the angels, including Satan, were created by God. We also believe that God's omniscience extends to the activities of angels and demons. If Satan was not created then he would be a god.

There is a religion, Zoroastrianiasm, that believes in dualism - where there is a good god and a evil god in a perpetual struggle.

You may wonder how the devil could be so silly as to rebel against an all-powerful and all-loving God - but that is what people choose to do every day of their own free will. Once we decide to follow our selfish desires we do stuff even though we know it's all going to end in tears.

JoeB-

PDN wrote:

Hi Joe.
Yes, Christians believe that the angels, including Satan, were created by God. We also believe that God's omniscience extends to the activities of angels and demons. If Satan was not created then he would be a god.

Ok, interesting stuff. Something I have wondered about is Gods motivation to continue to exist, after all an immortal omniscient being has 'been there, done that' and so surely life would become monotonous and boring... maybe this is why God chooses to create angels, universes and humans, simply for amusement. Of course this is flawed because of Gods omniscience, his creations have no power to spice up his life...
This is a real question, how does an immortal omniscient being amuse himself and keep from coming depressed and bored? He could only do this by giving his creations the power to surprise him, something he hasn't done apparently. As soon as God conceives of creating something he instantaneously and simultaneously knows the outcomes, and so the actual act of creating becomes a moot point, there is simply no point for him to do it.

There is a good discussion on Wikipedia about immortality and how many people believe it to be a curse rather that a blessing... because of the eventual boredom. (Instantaneous boredom in God's case because of omniscience)

This has provoked another thought in my head... does Gods omniscience extend to himself??? Because if it does then surely his life is not worth having... his thoughts must be filled with an infinite existence of predictability... even infinite love would become normal and boring after a while. (Instantaneously in God's case because of omniscience)

PDN wrote:

There is a religion, Zoroastrianiasm, that believes in dualism - where there is a good god and a evil god in a perpetual struggle.

Again, very interesting... and much more intriguing to me than a single God. I am a big fan of a series of books by Stephen R. Donaldson called The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and that is the way it works, there are two immortal Gods, or rather the good God has a bad side which is hidden inside himself... when the good God creates a world the despite inside himself does unseen work and thus becomes trapped in the creation, trapped by time... and the good God cannot intervene as doing so would release the 'bad' God back into the timeless universe outside the created world. An excellent series of books which has much to say...
I will now check out Zoroastrianiasm and see if it appeals to me.

PDN wrote:

You may wonder how the devil could be so silly as to rebel against an all-powerful and all-loving God - but that is what people choose to do every day of their own free will. Once we decide to follow our selfish desires we do stuff even though we know it's all going to end in tears.

The difference here (and it is a huge difference) is that the devil has what humans are hoping to achieve, i.e the devil has seen God in all his glory and yet that is not enough.
In other words I don't know for sure that there is an all loving God and that is why I choose non belief, if I had once shared in God's glory and it is as good as described I presumabily would never leave.

Again I find a strange situation... God created the devil and his omniscience allowed him to see what would happen, this means that God must take responsibility for the actions of his creations, including the actions of the devil he created.
What I mean is God can't say.. 'The devil had a choice, it's not my problem'... God knew what the outcome would be and so by creating the devil he also created the evil the devil would cause... in other words, when creating the devil he knew he was also creating the evil the devil would cause, it simply has to follow from this that God must take the responsibility.

Cheers so
Joe

Spyral

Might I reccomend "interview with an Exorcist" by Fr José Antonio Fortea.

ISBN -10: 1-932645-96-9

ISBN -13: 978-1-932645-96-5

Ascention Press 2006

Its really good, answers all the questions on the nature of angels / demons the difference what they are and so on and so forth in an easy to understand yet sufficiently deep format.

JoeB-

Spyral

Interesting stuff about exorcists... I didn't realize they still existed. So I checked on Google and found some interesting stuff...

In particular I found the following interview with a Fr Amorth on this URL. (published in a Catholic magazine)
http://www.fisheaters.com/amorth.html

I have suggested previously that the Catholic Church may have been infiltrated by the devil... this suggestion seems to have been ignored. But how else can the willingness of the Church to promote and faciliate child abuse be explained? And Fr Amorth agrees.. (quoted below from the interview on the above link)

Fr. Amorth: The smoke of Satan has entered everywhere. Everywhere! Perhaps we were excluded from the audience with the Pope because they were afraid that such a large number of exorcists might succeed in chasing out the legions of demons that have installed themselves in the Vatican.

(The interviewers) 30 Days: You are joking, aren't you?

Fr. Amorth: It may seem like a joke, but I do not believe it is. I have no doubt about the fact that the demon tempts the authorities of the Church especially, just as he tempts every authority, those of politics and industry.

So my suggestion that Catholics may have to go it alone and refuse to accept the powers in the Vatican as speaking for God seems to have some merit, after all, if the devil has infilitrated the Vatican how will Catholics explain their continued support for the Vatican to God? Will Catholics blindly follow where the Vatican leads? Or do Catholics believe that following mere men is more important than following the word of god?

I would be very interested in what people think about this.

Cheers
Joe

JoeB-

Hi

No response as yet to my previous post above, I feel that's quite telling.

I'm not a Catholic and so don't believe anything Fr Amorth says including the rather fantastic claims made below... (from the same interview)

Fr. Amorth: I recall an illiterate peasant who, during an exorcism, spoke to me only in English and I had to have an interpreter. There are people who manifest a superhuman strength, others who completely levitate from the ground and whom it is impossible even for several men to keep seated in their armchair.

(The 'illiterate peasant' was presumabily Italian and so spoke only Italian)

Do any Catholics believe in this? Apparently it is a Catholics duty to believe in that type of stuff...

Or do Catholics believe that they can 'take it or leave it'... i.e believe some things and not others... in other words, what is the point in remaining a Roman Catholic if you don't believe everything they say (as you must).... you should simply do what I do in that case, which is to live a moral life that I can defend... if the benevolent God chooses to place me in Hell for all eternity for this, well, then my point is proven... the Catholics were wrong to describe him as 'all forgiving'... (he is unprepared to forgive 'rational' people for their rationality)

Cheers
Joe

BrianCalgary

JoeBallantine wrote:

Hi

No response as yet to my previous post above, I feel that's quite telling.

Written whilst I sleep my friend.

JoeBallantine wrote:

I'm not a Catholic and so don't believe anything Fr Amorth says including the rather fantastic claims made below... (from the same interview)


(The 'illiterate peasant' was presumabily Italian and so spoke only Italian)

Do any Catholics believe in this? Apparently it is a Catholics duty to believe in that type of stuff...

Or do Catholics believe that they can 'take it or leave it'... i.e believe some things and not others... in other words, what is the point in remaining a Roman Catholic if you don't believe everything they say (as you must).... you should simply do what I do in that case, which is to live a moral life that I can defend... if the benevolent God chooses to place me in Hell for all eternity for this, well, then my point is proven... the Catholics were wrong to describe him as 'all forgiving'... (he is unprepared to forgive 'rational' people for their rationality)

Cheers
Joe

Don't quite know where to start. The exorcism bit, I think happens. There is enough smoke about to say that there is a fir esomewhere.

I certainly wouldn't take what any denomination says without first testing it against scripture. I threfore don't follow any denomination, I follow the Bible and attend a church that is on a road of spiritual growth and discovery that uses the Bible as it's source for that growth.

BrianCalgary

JoeBallantine wrote:

Spyral

Interesting stuff about exorcists... I didn't realize they still existed. So I checked on Google and found some interesting stuff...

In particular I found the following interview with a Fr Amorth on this URL. (published in a Catholic magazine)
http://www.fisheaters.com/amorth.html

I have suggested previously that the Catholic Church may have been infiltrated by the devil... this suggestion seems to have been ignored. But how else can the willingness of the Church to promote and faciliate child abuse be explained? And Fr Amorth agrees.. (quoted below from the interview on the above link)



So my suggestion that Catholics may have to go it alone and refuse to accept the powers in the Vatican as speaking for God seems to have some merit, after all, if the devil has infilitrated the Vatican how will Catholics explain their continued support for the Vatican to God? Will Catholics blindly follow where the Vatican leads? Or do Catholics believe that following mere men is more important than following the word of god?

I would be very interested in what people think about this.

Cheers
Joe

I think that Satan attempts to infiltrate and skew all that is God's and good.

That is why it is imperative to test everything against scripture. All the kids in my Sunday School class have a responsibility to question all my teaching and to test it against scripture.

Satan is alive and well and doing his work in the Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, C & MA, Presbyteria, and other churches to corrupt their teachings and their leadership.

robindch

Brian -- out of interest, you mention that Satan is alive and causing trouble for some churches. Does he succeed in causing trouble, for example, in your church? ie, could any of the "teachings" promulgated by your church, or any of the people that you acquire religious information from, actually be faulty through being carefully and quietly mislead by Satan?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Brian -- out of interest, you mention that Satan is alive and causing trouble for some churches. Does he succeed in causing trouble, for example, in your church? ie, could any of the "teachings" promulgated by your church, or any of the people that you acquire religious information from, actually be faulty through being carefully and quietly mislead by Satan?

NOT IN MY CHURCH, FOR WE ARE PERFECT!!!!!!!

Seriously though, at this point in time we are OK at my church. We are growing, people are growing and using their God given gifts to glorify God and bring others to Christ. Our board and pastoral staff spend time in prayer to seek God's guidance for our church body and what God would have us do.

All of that doesn't mean that Satan isn't trying. Dissension does creep into the equation now and again and it gets dealt with in a positive manner (I've been involved in this myself).

As for your last comment, yes that possibility does exist and that is why all teachings are tested to God's word, to make sure that nothing being taught contradicts or alters what God has said.

Shellie13

interesting topic!
recomend a book anne rice "memoch the devil"- work of fiction and fantasy but really good info about angels in it and really good take on it!