Newly found site at Tara to be destroyed.

Archeron

I'm not a campaigner about this or anything, but this news story still depresses me. How significant a loss to our heritage will this be? Every book I have on Irish heritage stresses the importance of this site, and now we just seem to be bulldozing it.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfojkfeyau/

Former Minister for Environment Dick Roche has defended his decision to approve the destruction of a Stone Age henge recently discovered in Co Meath.

The monument was uncovered at Lismullen, near the Hill of Tara, during preparatory work on the route of the M3 motorway.

In one of his final acts as minister, Mr Roche signed an order allowing for the site to be documented and destroyed to make way for the road.

The new Environment Minister, John Gormley, is apparently planning to review the decision, but reports this morning say he will be unable to reverse it.

Mr Roche says there was nothing underhand about the decision and he believes it was actually discussed during the recent coalition negotiations between Fianna Fáil and the Greens.

Mr. Presentable

Tough one. There has to be a balance between heritage and progress - we cannot be held hostage by the past. However, and this is my opinion on it, we should do everything to preserve our history, and only when we are satisfied we have done all we can, proceed with our progress.

TBH, for me, if this "Henge" is no more than a darkening/lightening of the soil with posthole impressions, as I suspect it must be, then it should be recorded and consigned to the record books.

In Rome, one of the reasons the Metro is a waste of time, and the traffic is so bad, is every time they dig a hole they hit archaeology. I'm not sure how they address the problems posed, but we might learn from them?

luckat

If you fly over Tara, you'll see the marks of a huge prehistoric centre, with forts and homesteads clearly marked in the soil. (Freudian slip: I originally typed 'soul'.)

There must be money at the root of the lunatic decision to route the motorway through this central place in our heritage.

ScottishDanny

I don't understand why they cant build the road around it? But then look what happened when the original Viking settlement of Dublin was discovered when excavating the foundations for the corporation building. 1 million signatures on the petition and it went ahead anyway.

Mick86

The motorway should not have been allowed within miles of Tara since the whole area is probably one big archaeological site.

But never fear, this is an opportunity for John Gormley to show what the Greens are made of. With a stroke of the pen he can reverse the decision of Dick Roche. It's what his constituents voted him in to do after all.

poker_face

Apparently I've heard that the straightest most logical route for the new M3 motorway wouldn't pass through tara. Apparently "friends" of some politicians own land near the proposed route and hence the property value of their land would shoot up if a motorway was near by.
I'm all for progress but I cant stand corruption. Corruption with regard to planning is the reason why ireland is in such a mess to begin with. Anyway alot of the above is just hear say and I've no solid information on any of it.

ejmaztec

I'm sure that all the tourists will be flocking here in their thousands to see this new road - 8th Wonder of The World!

katarin

ScottishDanny wrote:

I don't understand why they cant build the road around it? But then look what happened when the original Viking settlement of Dublin was discovered when excavating the foundations for the corporation building. 1 million signatures on the petition and it went ahead anyway.

has anyone actually been out to this new wonder-site?
I have. The first thing that struck me is that the road runs a surprising distance from Tara. It's a good deal further away from the existing road and will have little to no effect on Tara at all. I'm at a loss to see why this ''Save Tara'' project has gained any momentum whatsoever considering Tara won't be affected. In fact, the only problem I see is that the place won't have a pitch black view to Skryne at night time anymore.

im delighted they've decided to move on with this road, as a [brand new] archaeology graduate, i see it as progress - all sites (of which there have been surprisingly few of note, excluding lismullin on this routeway) will be excavated thoroughly and funded by the NRA. everything will be recorded meticulously. if the road was rerouted, the lismullin site would be reburied and not excavated again until some unspecified point in the future when a bored philanthropist decides to fund an expensive investigation for their own leisure. just like what happened at Woodstown in Waterford. That site had ALOT of potential to be essential to Viking archaeology and now it's sitting idle under an overgrown field near a re-routed motorway. the lismullin site needs excavation NOW due to the shallow remains and the fact that if this site is left for only a short while more, it'll be completely destroyed.

Archaeology is destruction. Excavation requires digging away every inch of dirt on a site and taking anything of value away. What's left is either a shell or a stretch of disturbed soil. I don't see why people see excavation as a good thing but excavation-then-destruction as a bad thing. It's all the same!

bring on the M3!

ejmaztec

katarin wrote:

has anyone actually been out to this new wonder-site?
I have. The first thing that struck me is that the road runs a surprising distance from Tara. It's a good deal further away from the existing road and will have little to no effect on Tara at all. I'm at a loss to see why this ''Save Tara'' project has gained any momentum whatsoever considering Tara won't be affected. In fact, the only problem I see is that the place won't have a pitch black view to Skryne at night time anymore.

im delighted they've decided to move on with this road, as a [brand new] archaeology graduate, i see it as progress - all sites (of which there have been surprisingly few of note, excluding lismullin on this routeway) will be excavated thoroughly and funded by the NRA. everything will be recorded meticulously. if the road was rerouted, the lismullin site would be reburied and not excavated again until some unspecified point in the future when a bored philanthropist decides to fund an expensive investigation for their own leisure. just like what happened at Woodstown in Waterford. That site had ALOT of potential to be essential to Viking archaeology and now it's sitting idle under an overgrown field near a re-routed motorway. the lismullin site needs excavation NOW due to the shallow remains and the fact that if this site is left for only a short while more, it'll be completely destroyed.

Archaeology is destruction. Excavation requires digging away every inch of dirt on a site and taking anything of value away. What's left is either a shell or a stretch of disturbed soil. I don't see why people see excavation as a good thing but excavation-then-destruction as a bad thing. It's all the same!

bring on the M3!

Stuffing a few old remnants into a glass case doesn't do it for me,I'm afraid. I assumed that archaeology was archaeology, but it has obviously changed somewhat over the years. Most odd.

Riamfada

ejmaztec wrote:

Stuffing a few old remnants into a glass case doesn't do it for me,I'm afraid. I assumed that archaeology was archaeology, but it has obviously changed somewhat over the years. Most odd.

changed how? As in it hasnt become treasure hunting anymore? Your state ment is ... most odd

katarin

how has it changed? when was it anything other than destruction? the only difference is that its no longer bored rich people funding excavations and taking part in them for their leisure - it's now professional and funded for a purpose.

Hagar

We all know at the most basic level that Tara is an integral part of our heritage.
Why do our politicians deny this?
Is the lure of 30 piecies of silver too much for them?
Shame on them.
Shame on us for electing them.

Riamfada

Hagar,

what exactly is you standpoint on construction in Meath? No one is going over Tara. The road is going close to Tara and not even within visiblitiy of the site and at the end of the day, road have to be built as most people are not as close to our heritage as some others , and the majority dont even care.

katarin

and its not ''the politicians'' who ''deny'' any of this.
in fact, most of the politicians dont know where to stand.
the road needs to be built.
the site needs to be excavated. theres bearly anything left anyway!
and tara won't be harmed in the slightest.

Riamfada

plus the politicians act on the advice of the Director of the National Museum of Ireland. I trust the judgement of this man over the tarawatch anto-establisment brigade anyday.

katarin

Grimes wrote:

anto-establisment brigade

if that was intentional, it's hilarious.

Hagar

Grimes wrote:

Hagar,

what exactly is you standpoint on construction in Meath? No one is going over Tara. The road is going close to Tara and not even within visiblitiy of the site and at the end of the day, road have to be built as most people are not as close to our heritage as some others , and the majority dont even care.

I don't really have a standpoint on construction for any county, I just have a view that Local and National Government should take every possible step to ensure that we don't destroy remnants of our heritage that we can't replace. I question the basis on which they make their decisions. I question their integrity. I question their right to do some of the things they do in our name. Profit and expedience seem to be the order of the day. Coupled with arrogance and a dogged determination never to back down from a decision once made. Wood Quay is a prime example. Building on that site was a crime against the Nation. Building what they actually did, the Bunker, was... I can't even think of a word to describe how awful that kip is on the skyline of Dublin. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Archeron

katarin wrote:

Archaeology is destruction. Excavation requires digging away every inch of dirt on a site and taking anything of value away. What's left is either a shell or a stretch of disturbed soil. I don't see why people see excavation as a good thing but excavation-then-destruction as a bad thing. It's all the same!

bring on the M3!

Interesting post katarin, especially as you are qualified in archeaology. I've found with this whole thing (complete layman comment here) that the whole thing seems to be getting kept quite quiet, and no-one seems to really know exactly what it is thats just been found. I personally would be concerned with the destruciton of our heritage, but I would also agree that if its just a shadow in the ground of where a wooden henge once stood, then it should be just recorded, and if nessecary, destroyed for the sake of progress. (I live in Meath, and that motorway is sorely needed).

Having spoken to members of Tara watch before (and another similar group, who's name escapes me), I cant say I was overly convinced of their standpoint at all, but as someone above mentions, with Wood Quays's destruction in our recent history, I am not comfortable trusting the government decision either.
Whats the best place to find out accurate information about what is being found on these sites without any hidden agendas being behind distorting the facts?
I dont know of any group who will give information on whats being discovered and its importance to our heritage. I feel many people are getting up in arms over the destruciton of Tara, but many dont know quite what is being destroyed to begin with, me included.

Riamfada

If you wish to look examine the official NRA site I find it quite helpful http://www.m3motorway.ie/. It lists all the finds and arcaheological reports, especially with regards to Lismullen.

Yes Woodquay was a disaster but since then legislation has been placed to protect these sites coupled with the fact that the remains at Woodquay were much more significant and well preserved than the cropmarks at Lismullen.

G

katarin

not crazy bout the website but heres a site report:
http://www.savetara.com/Download/File,7286,en.pdf

I just have a view that Local and National Government should take every possible step to ensure that we don't destroy remnants of our heritage that we can't replace.

the m3 wont harm tara and the lismullin site will be gone anyway in a few years if it isnt excavated.

Hagar

Grimes wrote:

Yes Woodquay was a disaster but since then legislation has been placed to protect these sites

Excellent, so Carrickmines Castle wasn't touched then as it was adequately protected by the legislation...

katarin

it was thoroughly excavated and recorded.

WindSock

Forgive my if I seem a little naive and unlearned, but if Tara has been around for donkeys years and has been a well known place of historic signifigance, then how come it hasn't been excavated sooner?

Riamfada

exactly bored. You have listened to the tarawatch brigade. The M3 isnt going through or close to tara. It passes between Tara and Skryne and is not even visible from the hill of tara itself. In fact its the far side of the current N3 which runs down the hill from Tara and serves the main Dublin to Cavan road.

Carrickmines was a site which presented very little of historical significance and its remains were merly a few clumps of overgown walls. Ill set up a link but im sure you get the picture, so I dont see the use of Carrickmines as an appropriate analogy.

Again, The Hill of Tara, one of the four Royal sites in Ireland is perfectly protected. Down the hill, past the houses and across one of the busiest roads in Ireland lies a few very fragile oddly coloured pieces of dirt which are almost gone naturally. They represent a once off henge which has presented very little archaeological remains and was never reused durin its lifetime. The director of the national museum has advised the minister to sign an order for the excavation of the site and continuation of the road.

I would have liked to have seen Minister Roache not sign the order and instead leaving it to John Gormely to be forced to sign merly days into office. Humor to the highest degree imo.

What gets me is that people who have no understanding of archaeology or the archaeological process seem to think that they are informed as to the ins and outs of the M3.

Hagar. Woodstown, im sure you are aware of it. Would it have been better as a fully excavated roadway or a rotting forgotten unexcavated swamp?

katarin

boreds wrote:

Forgive my if I seem a little naive and unlearned, but if Tara has been around for donkeys years and has been a well known place of historic signifigance, then how come it hasn't been excavated sooner?

tara has been excavated. Sean T.O'Riordain and Ruadhri DeValera in the 1940s/50s. Thoroughly excavated. Tara won't be touched by new M3. The M3 runs a mile and a half away from it. it hits the side of a decently discovered woodhenge structure that needs excavation or it'll be destroyed. it'll only be excavated if work on the m3 continues. its not visible at ground level.

Riamfada

katarin wrote:

needs excavation or it'll be destroyed

Not destroyed by the motorway but by natural erosion and ploughing. If it wasnt for the m3 we would never have discovered this site and had a chance to examine it.