Will clones kill innovation in airsoft?

o1s1n

All the innovation and new designs we see coming out in airsoft come from high end companies who put all the research and development in. Hence some of the cost of the high prices. Chinese clones take this design and ream off copies at a knock down price.

If the quality of clones is constantly getting better, will there be a point where they will be close to or on par with higher brands? Is this starting to happen already?

Will this damage higher brands business to the point where they are no longer viable? Which then means the Chinese won't have any more designs to copy.

ED E

Isnt the RS Type 97 Original, never saw a TM ect one of them. I think it will force them others to reloacte production/ put them out of buisness BUT then i think the Chinese are well capable of filling the demand for new guns!:)

Mark_Sc

I'v thought about this too and i think that when they have nothing new to copy they will start reasearching new guns which will bring up the prices untill they are just as expensive as the real ones which will no longer be in existance. Then "JG" will be just like classic army so someone else will start making clones of JG guns calling themselvs MP and the whole cycle will start over again

Shiva

I'm about to go home, so I can't go into a lot of detail, but I briefly thought about this a few weeks ago.

What I thought might happen in the near-ish future is that the amount of cloning will drastically reduce as China's market expands, and they to sign up to global trade agreements and copyright treaties.

The larger manufacturers who have patented their designs for gearboxes etc will be under less pressure, because the Chinese companies will have to respect copyright.

Thats what I came up with anyway, but I'm far from being an expert on the global economy, I did no research, and I certainly didnt think too long or hard about it

ED E

?I beleive there is no Copyright in china?

CrazyRabbit

Shiva wrote:

I'm about to go home, so I can't go into a lot of detail, but I briefly thought about this a few weeks ago.

What I thought might happen in the near-ish future is that the amount of cloning will drastically reduce as China's market expands, and they to sign up to global trade agreements and copyright treaties.

The larger manufacturers who have patented their designs for gearboxes etc will be under less pressure, because the Chinese companies will have to respect copyright.

Thats what I came up with anyway, but I'm far from being an expert on the global economy, I did no research, and I certainly didnt think too long or hard about it

China...copyright ...yeah right :rolleyes:

ED E

As I said!

Shiva

CrazyRabbit wrote:

China...copyright ...yeah right :rolleyes:

Not now, no....of course not. But I did say in the future

But they'll have to sign up to world trade and copyright agreements, and begin to enforce and respect copyright if they want to fully embrace world markets.

Do you really think the music, software, movie and all other industry lobbyists in the US and Europe will stand idly by and allow their respective governments let China away without WTO sanctions if they don't start respecting copyright ???

Of course they won't....eventually, China will have to start respecting copyright if it wants to capitalise on its huge economic growth of recent times.

Fallschirmjager

well i think there is a risk for this. its also i suspect one of the reasons we dont see a lot of new stuff, a bit like the drug companies and i am sure TM are thinking the same...why would we spend millions designing a new gearbox or aeg so some git in china will copy it and dump on the market, weeks after our launch. if TM are not taking into account the cost of chinese competition, they wont be around long. i would love to see figures for the mp7 sales versus the bell and BE copies. this is a classic example. for the most part the mp7 is a backup, so a lot of people who would normally invest heavily in aeg's, like snipers for example, may say, screw it i will plough my money into a better scope and get a bell as i will only be using it as a last ditch weapon anyways. just a guess, mind. one thing is for certain, no matter what TM charge we will always have a percentage of people who will want them for the excellence of them...but that is a niche market and nowhere near the money TM is currently earning.

i really do like the main companies a lot. they have invested heavily in a sport that is very VERY touchy about accuracy in the model, and in classic japanese they delivered exact duplicates- logos and all. i would bet however some of the taiwanese and japanese smaller players are looking over their shoulder. i suspect they will have to look into outsourcing production to china and that goes for TM as well. if the likes of dell and ibm and over to industries like fashion are doing it, i cant see how airsoft will be any different.

i am sure we will see a whitteling down of the chinese market as well. there seem to be dozens of them, and although there are several rumours that some of them are the same manafacturer with different logos, i dont think we (the royal we that is) could support them all.

it is good for airsoft to have choice, hell, its good for everything. it will provide people with an easy route into airsoft as a try it scenario, and i know what u mean o1s1n when u say it is not a good idea to buy cheap for the first one, but like all things you get what you pay for, so the first time they go to a game, they will see the risks of just a cheapo.

only time will tell, i suppose, but i will risk a few of their items. for instance if they did a decent shotty or gas m203, i would try it as i dont (well i hope at least) intend to use it a lot. but like a lot of people here, i want accuracy, not something i spot welded in my back yard.

china has its positives and its negatives, volume, price is its advantage...but we do have risks....particularly in the medium term on new choice..

i sometimes forget TM is a business, and like all businesses, when china moves in a direction...you have to sit up and react...how they react, i certainly will find very very interesting....

thats just my tuppence worth...

ps one other thing...i am wondering where india is in all this....now there is a fight that will be nothing short of stunning......sit back and oil your aeg...the business wars could only be starting..

Fallschirmjager

just spent the last 2 hours looking on wgc and uncompany. now u cant really make a judgement on this as it maybe to do with low stock levels but it is interesting

the limited selection on uncompany of chinese clones are all out of stock as far as i can see and the vast majority of stuff from china on wgc is also out of stock and thats despite a half page of a warning on each aeg.

HarryHirsch

Don't forget Classic Army is one of the first TM clones from Hong Kong, China. They tried to improve. Now they have their own series. JLS is one of these clones, know for a good clone of the SCAR. Now they sell they first own AEG the FN2000 (the original gun comes from Belgium). I don't know if this is really bad. Dboys/Boyi, they started their own M4A1 series with 7mm ball bearing gearboxes, like CA. So lets eait and see. Why not buy airsoft guns with a good quality price relation. And some guns don't have clones. I've neve seen a good clone of the PSG1.:cool: (Konkurrenz belebt das Geschäft - competition stimulates the business)

ambro25

If TM has any sense, they will buy out two or three CN clone manufacturers, and will become the Ford or GM of airsoft.

When considering this issue for two secs, the economical trick for TM to adapt and survive stares you loud and clear and in the face:

buy out Systema or ICS or SRC or whomever to cater for the luxury "smallest distribution/huge margin" end,

keep the 'standard' ABS TM in the middle,

buy out DBoys or JG (or both - please, Mr TM - they only need good QA to take over the world!) to cater for the volume "sell'em lots and sell'em cheap" end

Sorted - TM can compete on every level and trickle down it's in-house R&D across the range.

As for the copying in China, things are already happening - fast. Just not into the niche that is airsoft yet. But it won't be long. Oh, yeah - "Copyright" has nothing to do with it, but patent and design rights do - lots.

CrazyRabbit

Shiva wrote:

Do you really think the music, software, movie and all other industry lobbyists in the US and Europe will stand idly by and allow their respective governments let China away without WTO sanctions if they don't start respecting copyright ???

...cough, last 20+ years, cough.

Shiva

CrazyRabbit wrote:

...cough, last 20+ years, cough.

/shakes head

They're starting to pile on pressure now.
20 years ago, China wasn't an economic monster.

Mark my words, trademarks, patents and copyright law in China will start to come in line with the West. It might take a few years, but it will happen.

nonex

every one is mising the point,
clones wont kill the innovation in airsoft? ,because it you want a copy of the real deal you are just paying for the trademarks,and the copyright to have name and make of that model gun,
the gun makers of real deal guns, are being payed for ther trademarks by airsoft companys and so the cost is added on the price of the airsoft gun ,it's all to do with looks.

now if what an airsoft gun without the trademarks you can buy a clone
of a real deal gun in airsoft with no markings for a lot less,thats why it is called a clone and not a copy, it 's to do with copyright law.

and if anyone whats to see the inside of one i would be happy to show you
a trademark or hi'end clone, see if you can spot the dif:
and no i am not pushing clones,thats up to you

Mark_Sc

Fallschirmjager wrote:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah blah blah Blah blah blah blah blah blah etc.

thats just my tuppence worth...

That must be at least 20 quid worth

ambro25

nonex wrote:

it you want a copy of the real deal you are just paying for the trademarks <snip>and the copyright</snip> to have name and make of that model gun, the gun makers of real deal guns, are being payed for ther trademarks by airsoft companys and so the cost is added on the price of the airsoft gun ,it's all to do with looks.

now if what an airsoft gun without the trademarks you can buy a clone
of a real deal gun in airsoft with no markings for a lot less,thats why it is called a clone and not a copy, it 's to do with <snip>copyright</snip> trademark law.

Fixed - sorry for being supercilious.

Fiach Dubh

nonex wrote:

every one is mising the point,
clones wont kill the innovation in airsoft? ,because it you want a copy of the real deal you are just paying for the trademarks,and the copyright to have name and make of that model gun,
the gun makers of real deal guns, are being payed for ther trademarks by airsoft companys and so the cost is added on the price of the airsoft gun ,it's all to do with looks.

now if what an airsoft gun without the trademarks you can buy a clone
of a real deal gun in airsoft with no markings for a lot less,thats why it is called a clone and not a copy, it 's to do with copyright law.

and if anyone whats to see the inside of one i would be happy to show you
a trademark or hi'end clone, see if you can spot the dif:
and no i am not pushing clones,thats up to you

Very true. I own a number of clones as well as a TM and VFC. The TM Beta didn't fail once in all the skirmishing I brought it to, just had bad power. However both my brothers clone G36c's have had at least 10000 BB's put through them so far and they're still operating 100%. The CYMA 031 AK74 has apparently got a few Classic Army parts in the gearbox and on the other hand my $480 VFC had a bad motor. CYMA 028's have been used for a year plus without failing and that's with no work being done on them at all.

If you want a high quality body with real trades go for VFC, Inokatsu, etc. If you just want to Airsoft without breaking the bank then get a clone.

Fallschirmjager

ambro25 wrote:

If TM has any sense, they will buy out two or three CN clone manufacturers, and will become the Ford or GM of airsoft.

When considering this issue for two secs, the economical trick for TM to adapt and survive stares you loud and clear and in the face:

buy out Systema or ICS or SRC or whomever to cater for the luxury "smallest distribution/huge margin" end,

keep the 'standard' ABS TM in the middle,

buy out DBoys or JG (or both - please, Mr TM - they only need good QA to take over the world!) to cater for the volume "sell'em lots and sell'em cheap" end

Sorted - TM can compete on every level and trickle down it's
in-house R&D across the range.

As for the copying in China, things are already happening - fast. Just not into the niche that is airsoft yet. But it won't be long. Oh, yeah - "Copyright" has nothing to do with it, but patent and design rights do - lots.

good point on systema...never thought of that....