minimum requirements to shove UTG + 1 in a 10-handed game

luckylucky

Following from the last poll, I'd also like to see what people think the minimum requirements to shove UTG + 1 in a 10-handed game are, both blinds having you covered, and say all factors being neutral as in the other post.

jimmii

You have to put it in before you go through the blinds so UTG+1 any hand that is more than likely going to be better than you will get UTG.

RoundTower

wtf does "neutral" mean, the players are "averagely" loose/tight? Give an example of a tournament. This is why the other thread is bad too.

luckylucky

RoundTower wrote:

wtf does "neutral" mean, the players are "averagely" loose/tight? Give an example of a tournament. This is why the other thread is bad too.

I wanted to keep the post short and sweet, that's why I said neutral I thought the meaning was reasonably clear that I meant all factors were equal, which I explained in the last post.

Ok if I have to spell it out.

A. Your table image is average, you are neither viewed as a LAG or a Rock.
B. Other Players and particularly the two blinds would be average in terms of looseness and tightness.
C. You have not played significantly different than your normal play over the last 20 to 40 hands. i.e. you have neither called or raised unusually more or less than your average.

Take it as being well into a MTT with a standard online pay structure. If you want exactness say you have 500 starters, 50 get paid and it's down to about the last 100, so you've still got a bit to go to the bubble.

Lastly I had already gathered by your response 'it depends' in the last thread that you thought the last thread was bad or pointless. I guess I could have explained it better but personally I didn't think I had explained it that bad either. For one thing I didn't want to go to the nth degree in explaining, it was meant to be just a generic type question as I realise the set of circumstances you find yourself in will never be quite the same as the average. Anyway sorry if you don't like both posts, but I think you're not shall we say a 'neutral' poster i.e. you are probably harder to please than your typical poker poster.

CaptainNemo

The answer to this and all other similar questions is usually "a pair of 2s".

peeko

RoundTower wrote:

wtf does "neutral" mean, the players are "averagely" loose/tight? Give an example of a tournament. This is why the other thread is bad too.

Why all the bad vibes around this forum lately? Is poker going to everyones heads? Seeing a lot of this lately from regulars, best of luck in life lads. This forum use to have a great little community, now it's donk this, wtf that. Don't go to far up your own arses.

TacT

CaptainNemo wrote:

The answer to this and all other similar questions is usually "a pair of 2s".

.

luckylucky

peeko wrote:

Why all the bad vibes around this forum lately? Is poker going to everyones heads? Seeing a lot of this lately from regulars, best of luck in life lads. This forum use to have a great little community, now it's donk this, wtf that. Don't go to far up your own arses.

well peeko looks like you and me are the only two who thinks RT's reply was a sh1tty arrogant reply then, looks like they are a certain few here regarded as beyond reproach alright. Such comments seem to be acceptable from some players because they have proven themselves as poker players, tbh if that's the case I could be as big an arrogant sh1thead as anybody else here but I don't think it's ok to do so. Anyway I'm really p1ssed off about this as you can tell and I'm kind annoyed with myself for being so. :mad: I've decided the best thing to do is to take a more selfish approach and not get too involved here or in any other poker forum anymore. So it's lurker status with maybe the occasional rare post from me from now on.

Jam-Fly

Assuming your <10BB, I shove with AQ/AK and any pair. Don't like shoving with AT or KQ and AT is very marginal at best.
I used be a hyper aggressive player, but busting out a few times just before the FT on marginal pushes really made me have another look at my game.

NickyOD

Jam-Fly wrote:

Assuming your <10BB, I shove with AQ/AK and any pair. Don't like shoving with AT or KQ and AT is very marginal at best.
I used be a hyper aggressive player, but busting out a few times just before the FT on marginal pushes really made me have another look at my game.

you don't like shoving with KQ and but prefer 22 in this spot. That's completely cuckoo.

With 10 BBs my range would basically be the same as the range of hands I'd open raise from from UTG with. AQ/AK and 99+

Jam-Fly

NickyOD wrote:

you don't like shoving with KQ and but prefer 22 in this spot. That's completely cuckoo.

With 10 BBs my range would basically be the same as the range of hands I'd open raise from from UTG with. AQ/AK and 99+

If you feel your opponent is only capable of calling with AT+ and 88+ then I prefer 22 than KQ. With 22, many worse hands will call (albeit, only slightly worse) but KQ, what worse hand calls you? With 22, your gona 50-50 most of the time and 80-20 maybe 30% of the time (not sure of odds about other pairs being dealt etc), also, you will usually get 33-77 to fold with a push too. With KQ, you will 50-50 (include hands like JJ and AT here) maybe half the time and dominated the other half

NickyOD

Jam-Fly wrote:

If you feel your opponent is only capable of calling with AT+ and 88+ then I prefer 22 than KQ. With 22, many worse hands will call (albeit, only slightly worse) but KQ, what worse hand calls you? With 22, your gona 50-50 most of the time and 80-20 maybe 30% of the time (not sure of odds about other pairs being dealt etc), also, you will usually get 33-77 to fold with a push too. With KQ, you will 50-50 (include hands like JJ and AT here) maybe half the time and dominated the other half

I'm sorry, but you haven't put any real thought into this argument at all. Against the range of hands you're likely to get called by KQ and 22 both fair really badly but 22 fairs slightly worse.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.935% 33.55% 00.38% 351622152 3991842.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 66.065% 65.68% 00.38% 688324212 3991842.00 { 66+, AJs+, AJo+ }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.639% 35.30% 00.34% 851025612 8199062.00 { KQs, KQo }
Hand 1: 64.361% 64.02% 00.34% 1543500296 8199062.00 { 66+, AJs+, AJo+ }

NickyOD

Actually just looking at the equity. AQ and 88 fair just about the same so folding Aq isn't so terrible either.

however this is of course ignores a lot of other factors you need to take into account, like the stage of the tournament and the size of the stacks in the blinds

Jam-Fly

Alright, maybe I was being my aggressive self when saying I'd push with 22. If you change it to 55, does that make much difference if the calling ranges are still the same.
From experience though, I much rather push with a pair than KQ, although I would say they are fairly close.