Omaha theory: please contribute

ditpoker

99.418% of posts on this forum are for NLHE. Can people who play Omaha (regularly or not) please put something down in this thread.

Something on:
starting hand ranges
full ring vs 6 handed
playing AAxx, or KKxx.
bluffing
ANYTHING!

thanks!

BigCityBanker

im about to leave work but when i get home il have a *stab* at adding something under the above headings.

gerry87

any good advice for omaha MTT's/STT's/HU? The biggest winners on sharkscope seem to be HU omaha players.

Lafortezza

I haven't played much tournament omaha, but people play waaaay too tight when they reach 8-12 BB's. Once you're getting close to that point, you should be pushing any 4 cards that are double suited, and any reasonable holding otherwise. If you're shoving your chips in people assume that you have AAxx or similar monster.

People also really underestimate how close hand values preflop are in Omaha, esp in tournaments.

baker1

I can only really speak from a live experience but i do have plenty of that over the years.

Starting Hands

Position is the all important factor in plo in relation to hand selection. It can be argued that any omaha hand [bar trips or quads] is playable preflop in any position. I think, however that for newish players a strict regime for playing hand preflop is needed. For this reason you should probably only get involved in half the pots as you would in holdem when starting.

In relation to specific starting hands connection is the key. This means that big pairs should have some back up and rundowns should be fully connected. Of course danglers are a no no in omaha and should be mucked quickly.

Playing AA & KK

Position as in most parts of omaha is the most important factor in determining how you play your big pairs. In early position at an aggressive table a limp to reraise is often the way a lot of new players like to play the big pairs. I think open raising is a better option in agressive games where the stacks are shallowish, as there is a greater chance to get a greater % of your stack in preflop. In saying this i also dont like this approach in deep stack games as you get to play the rest of the hand out of position. In middle and late position i will always raise with the aces and kings as want to get as much in the pot while in position. Stack size and table dynamics are the main factors that determine the way you play your big pairs though.

Bluffing

Your 2 main bluffing oppurtunities in plo are with the straight blockers and the lone ace. In determing whether to set up these bluffs it is important to play the whole hand with the bluff in mind i.e you have the lone ace on a 2 suited board. If you are of the disposition to bluff on the river should the flush come you should adjust on the flop and play the hand as if you actually have th Flush draw. The same is true with blockers. Dont just wait until the Flush/Straight comes to bluff it play the whole hand with the bluff in mind.

Just a few thoughts have to run now.

ditpoker

Omaha MTT (Lower limits):
My (limited) experience in Omaha MTT's is that during the early levels people will limp into any pot... alot of flop will have 5+ players. Play the rebuy tourney's, be willing to rebuy, and when a hand comes along that you like... go for the double up or bust. dont try and win small pots early on in the $10 rebuys such as the $1500 GTD on ipoker.

As the tournament gets deeper, people start playing the tournaments as a holdem tournament. They will go broke on AK36rainbow, but will insta-muck 4578double suited.

Be raise happy, if you get re-raised an overwhelming amount of time you're up against AAxx, or KKxx. People play far too tight preflop as the blinds go up, and min raises or 2.5 big blind raises are getting through... its makes building your stack very comfortable.

Preflop the pot will be reasonably controlled in PLO and you can see a flop cheaply, unless it goes raise re-raise re-re-reraise... on the flop if you have a weak showdown hand like 2 pair or xxx7 on a 77K board try and keep the pots small. if you have a monster, such as top set and nut flush draw... dont try and trap, get the chips in.. the nuts often changes on the turn or the river in omaha, so get your chips in when you know you;re ahead. Small hand = small pot... big hand = big pot, Small hand = small pot... big hand = big pot, Small hand = small pot... big hand = big pot, Small hand = small pot... big hand = big pot etc!

I'm very sure alot of this cannot be applied to higher stakes omaha tourney's but at the $5-$10 range its seems true.

rag2gar

2 pairs in your hand will make a set on the flop 25% of the time

gerry87

PF with hands like 789T or 89TJ and suited aces are we looking to limp to get as many people in for when we hit the nuts or are we trying to raise to build the pot?

What sort of hands trap new players, are the likes of 66XX rubbish to play for a set?

What good books are there for beginners?

BigCityBanker

Im posting this more because id like to have my thought process picked apart by others rather then me propsing that the below is any way correct.

The two single most important factors for me in Omaha are Position and Hand Selection. Ultimately Position should determine your starting hands.

Im only playing premium hands from early, these are hands that I would be willing to call a reraise with. Im never limp folding or openraising/folding. The hand must be able to withstand a raise.

Playing from the blinds - dont complete the SB just for the sake of it, your gonna be playing a bag of bollix oop which will ultimately lead to problems. Dont call a standard raise from the BB cos "im already in for 2" - fold that sh1t.

Raising from the blinds - very premium hands only - ask yourself what the purpose of the raise is? and how well your hand plays an inflated pot oop on later streets. I almost never raise from the SB unless I have what I would consider a premium holding - double suited broadways, double suited connected big pairs.

Playing AAXX and KKXX. It does matter if they are suited or not - as it will often dictate your agression post flop and ability to take down the pot without showdown. Remember one key thing - you do not have to play a big pot just cos you have AAxx or KKxx. You can play small ones and lose them and small ones and win them. Dont be afraid to drop them post flop if the board does not have a favourable texture. These hands dont play well multiway so the objective of the raise is to thin the field. If OOP and I dont feel my raise will thin the field I often just call, especially if my AA/KK is unsuited and not well connected, in this case you are often just playing for set value - otherwise you are playing an inflated multiway pot OOP with what is essentially a bag of bollix which will prove difficult. In LP Im raising these almost everytime. If I can I will happily get it aipf with AAxx.

Bluffing. You really need to know your customers for this. I dont advise bluffing into 4 players oop. You need to have a plan for a bluff - dont just decide your gonna bluff. Why are you bluffing? Why do you think it will be successful? Betting scare cards can be profitable if done at the correct time. Id often call in position HU on the flop just to take it away on the turn against agressive players. For me your bluff frequency in Omaha should be less than holdem - that may just be cos i dont have a developed enough game yet. I think for succesful bluffing you need to be paying close attn to the game - if im 3 or 4 tabling I almost never bluff - im nut peddling mainly. If ive only one table open then my propensity to bluff is alot higher. Conversely I like to know how many tables my opponents are on cos I think this will effect their bluffing frequency.

Take notes - jaysus this is important. "closes down with flush if board pairs", "will bluff at scare cards", "will continuation bet alot", "will CR flop alot" - simple things count for alot. Its not a big job (well not on FTilt) to take notes - they are a valuable resource.

Bluff catching - with a made hand multiway oop on the river if you bet and your expectation of a call is minimal, then check and let somebody bluff. È($W) when betting with nuts is often < È($W) checking nuts multiway oop. Im not saying this is gospel - but be aware that you dont always have to bet to extract value - against the correct customers checking is the best option.

now - i would be greatful if Round Tower could come on here and show me the error of my ways.

ianmc38

baker1 wrote:

It can be argued that any omaha hand [bar trips or quads] is playable preflop in any position.

A similar argument can be made for holdem hands but both arguments have no basis in fact. Having such loose starting hand requirements is what makes most players so bad as they constantly leak money by limping with hands that have really low equity in multiway limped pots. People also get attached to garbage like K297ds simply because the hand looks attractive.

Hands like 4566 and 2255 are totally overvalued.

I'd raise nearly every AAxx hand from every position unless it's a junkie AA/KK hand such as AA29 rainbow.

If you do nothing but nut pedal online you're guaranteed to make money.

baker1

ianmc38 wrote:

A similar argument can be made for holdem hands but both arguments have no basis in fact. Having such loose starting hand requirements is what makes most players so bad as they constantly leak money by limping with hands that have really low equity in multiway limped pots. People also get attached to garbage like K297ds simply because the hand looks attractive."

"I dont adhere to this strategy myself but this is because the games i usually play are not conjuctive for this as they are usually short stacked with lunatics. A case can certainly be made in a deep stack game where the money decisions occur on the turn and river."

If you do nothing but nut pedal online you're guaranteed to make money.[
But where is the fun and degenercy?

RoundTower

this thread seems to come up every month or so, the OP is usually along the lines of "how do I play Omaha?" Think what answers you would get if the thread was "how do I play hold'em?", they really wouldn't help you very much.

Try playing tight and only drawing to the nuts, play more hands in position, read 2+2, etc, etc.

menoscemo

The best value tournaments and cash games are unboubtedly Omaha Hi/Lo split games. People seem to go crazy preflop with a Bare A2 when in reality they can only win half the pot and only 50% of the time will there even be a qualifying lo hand. Does anyone else play Omaha hi/lo? There is very little theory out there on it but applying common sense seems to give you a big edge.

The Tourist

Are there any good PLO books out there? I already have Slotbooms "Secrets of..." but it has not inspired me so far...

ianmc38

I only like raising AAxx/KKxx from the blinds if:

1. You can get about 40% of your stack in preflop or
2. You raise other hands such as 4567 or TT89 as well

Killme00

ianmc38 wrote:

I only like raising AAxx/KKxx from the blinds if:

1. You can get about 40% of your stack in preflop or
2. You raise other hands such as 4567 or TT89 as well

I think it is bad play to get 40% of your stack in from the blinds with AAxx and KKxx. You are still OOP and now pot commited. I think you should raise, yes to build a pot and yes because of your hand but not for the sake of getting in 40% of your stack and not so that you are now pot commited with crap OOP post flop. I will raise single or double suited aces and kings from the blinds to eliminate players. I generally prefer to play those hands against 1 or 2 villians.

ianmc38

Killme00 wrote:

I think it is bad play to get 40% of your stack in from the blinds with AAxx

How much of your stack do you need to be able to get in preflop before you're ok with it? I'm assuming 100xBB stacks here btw. Position becomes irrelavant as you're going to be shoving nearly every flop.

Killme00

ianmc38 wrote:

How much of your stack do you need to be able to get in preflop before you're ok with it? I'm assuming 100xBB stacks here btw. Position becomes irrelavant as you're going to be shoving nearly every flop.

40% of your stack preflop with AAxx against how many opponents. 1 or 2 maybe, depending on the opponents. More than 2, never!! It just contributes to a big leak of mine and many others i am sure. A large unplayable pot OOP with a poor flop.

And if you are deep stacked at all it is terrible (but you know this)

5starpool

It is very rare that you will get 40% of your stack in preflop against multiple opponents online, unless there are a couple of shortstacks. It is almost always a 2 or 3 way pot, and once you do get that much in preflop you are rarely going to fold anyways.

Killme00

5starpool wrote:

It is almost always a 2 or 3 way pot, and once you do get that much in preflop you are rarely going to fold anyways.

Thats my point, you are pot committed nearly all the time with so much in preflop. And most of the time with one pair.