Salary - undercutting

dellas1979

If a job ad says that it pays between say €30,000-€40,000, is it ok to say that you are looking for €28,000?

Trying to give myself the best start. Have all the qualifications, but little experience.

feylya

I wouldn't. Look for €32 if you feel that you have little experience. That way they have room for negotiation up and down.

pwd

no it makes you look desperate.

dellas1979

Ah well. I just shot an email off there with me €28,000.

It seemed right in my head at the time so I went for it......hope I havent shot myself in the foot as it is a good job - I fill all the spec expect for all the experience. Just thought leaving a grand or 2 off might get my foot in the door.

dellas1979

Not deperate - have a job.

I am trying to get my foot in the door of this particular area, as I was saying. I have all the qualifications, just little experience. Thought asking for 28K might make it more appealing.

I have applied for jobs before in this area, but have never been successful.
28K would do me grand. And saves them 2K.

Maybe my logic is flawed :-(

Vokes

dellas1979 wrote:

Ah well. I just shot an email off there with me €28,000

If they ask you why this is so low, say it was a typo - that it should be €38,000.

dellas1979

Good excuse Sofa King, but there is no way in hell Id get it for €38,000!!!with little experience.

Shur I guess, if I fecked it up, I fecked it up.

pwd

I'm not saying you are desperate. I am saying that offering to work for less than the minimum being offered makes you look desperate - it'll make them wonder what is wrong with you.

dellas1979

Well, I suppose, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Ive never tried that tactic before, so we shall see!!!

Why shouldnt I under cut, if I can afford it? It is virtually impossible to get a job in this area these days, unless you have buckets of experience. I dont have much experience and I want that job. No other place is going to take me on with high salary and low experience!!! Believe me, Ive tried!!

Timmy_d

dellas1979 wrote:

It is virtually impossible to get a job in this area these days, unless you have buckets of experience. !!

Hmmm that wouldnt be I.T would it,know the feeling

homah_7ft

pwd wrote:

I'm not saying you are desperate. I am saying that offering to work for less than the minimum being offered makes you look desperate - it'll make them wonder what is wrong with you.

Or they could think yeah he meets the requirements plus he will be costing us less. Hodgson... hire that man.

the_syco

dellas1979 wrote:

No other place is going to take me on with high salary and low experience!!! Believe me, Ive tried!!

Agreed. If they ask, say that as you don't have the required experience, you're putting a price that suits what experience you have.

themole

In my opinion undercutting the wage level like that will in no way help you get the job. Afaik, most employers will look for the best person for the job. When they have decided on the best from the applicants they will then decide what to offer as pay based on the persons experience etc. The amount being paid would rairly come into the selection process as they have already decided what they are willing to pay.

Newaglish

If they say 30k-40k, then they can afford to pay that. Going down to 28k would only save them 2k, which is not a whole lot spread over a whole year.

I think they might be a bit suspicious of why you are willing to undercut, because it suggests a lack of confidence in your abilities/experience.

Jumpy

Timmy_d wrote:

Hmmm that wouldnt be I.T would it,know the feeling

?

IT is super easy to get a job in these days.
The job market is way up compared to a few years ago.

rebel.ranter

I'd be interested in the outcome of this one. Let us know how it went...

Bulmers

well my take on this as someone who hires people sometimes is I wouldn't just bring in someone because they are cheap, reason is you will obviously be in a group where there are salary grades, it's easier to keep everyone in and around the same level as much as possible, i.e. everyone on the same playing field.

So if after a yr in the job, you are still on 28k, assuming 2-3% pay increase and also assuming the days of big 10-15% increases are gone, you will always be behind the others salary wise no matter what, which results in two scenarios

1) u get p*ssed off for doing same work as everyone else and not paid same, which will happen (has happened in my exp anyway)

2) you'll use the exp gained there and leave which puts manager back to square one.

I hired a guy for a role who didn't have the exact experience but based on interview and mtg the chap,was sure was not a major issue. The range was 30-40k too incidentally, avergae guy in group on 37k, gave him 34.5k, he is happy out and a great guy to have.

Just my two cents on it but I think undercutting is not really a good way to go, if you have the ability/potential, no reason not to pay someone, get a good employee who is happy ( relatively! ) and it's win win for everyone.

BostonB

I don't see the point of uncutting either. Either you can do the job or you can't.

dellas1979

The Mole: When they have decided on the best from the applicants they will then decide what to offer as pay based on the persons experience etc.

That is not true. Why then would they ask you what salary you expect? It is ALL part of the process. i.e all these things add up. While experience is probably no.1 on the list, Its not just that. Its salary, qualifications etc.

As I said, I will just have to wait and see. I have nothing to loose and no its not as easy to get a job in IT when experience is low (even though you have all the qualifications). I dont know what planet you live on.

Jumpy

The Mole: When they have decided on the best from the applicants they will then decide what to offer as pay based on the persons experience etc.

That is not true. Why then would they ask you what salary you expect? It is ALL part of the process. i.e all these things add up. While experience is probably no.1 on the list, Its not just that. Its salary, qualifications etc.

As I said, I will just have to wait and see. I have nothing to loose and no its not as easy to get a job in IT when experience is low (even though you have all the qualifications). I dont know what planet you live on.

Ah, no, IT is all about getting your foot in the door.
And your expected salary will have nothing to do with it unless it comes down to two of you with the same experience asking for different salaries.
You have to start as the lowest of the low.
For support, qualifications mean absolutely nothing. Experience is what counts. So go for low level jobs to start, do not go for higher level positions and offer to do it for less salary. You will have to start in the gutter.

dellas1979

I am in a low ended IT job at the moment. Experience is limited though. I just wanted to see what the reaction would be if I undercut. So far, they came back to me and said basically "thanks for the information, we are processing your application".

Good enough for me at the moment. No questions etc at the moment.

Jumpy

dellas1979 wrote:

I am in a low ended IT job at the moment. Experience is limited though. I just wanted to see what the reaction would be if I undercut. So far, they came back to me and said basically "thanks for the information, we are processing your application".

Good enough for me at the moment. No questions etc at the moment.

I personally am annoyed you undercut. Damn newbies bringing down the overall salary. Boooo

calsatron

Been involved in a good few large multinational recruitment processe's and it works something like this:

Position identified, departmental manager in discussion with senior management sets salary level etc, HR advertises positions and filters CV's into relevance, departmental manager and line supervisor view relevant CV's and choose interview candidates, Interviews take place (HR,Department Manger,Line Manager), Offer made to candidate and if accepted references and quals checked by HR, Contract sent out.

Pitching yourself below the advertised rate in the situation above is more likely to get you filtered out by HR at the first stage due to a percieved lack of experience/responsiblity/qualificiations than put in because your cheap.

Generally the cost of the position has been accounted for when the position is concieved and doesn't come into the interview stage. Interviews are based on experience, qualifications, personality, background etc etc. Managers are more than aware that more experienced and qualified people cost more. The reason they ask you at the interview what salary you expect is to ensure its in line with the scale for the position and making you an offer wouldn't be a waste of time.

The largest companies actually have little checklists you go through at the interview stage ranking everybody you see as you go, this is mainly to ensure equality in the process, and I've never seen a box for "Relative Asda Price of Candidate"

dellas1979

Come on people.........it is not as straight forward as that. If it was, shur wouldnt everything be that much easier and that much more boring?

Look, there is another post in this work forum about a guy who was offered a job, got to the point of reference, and they came back and said that they had changed their minds!!!

So, who knows what is going on in these places!!! I certainly dont calsatron, and 99.9% of people are not as assured as you when it comes to what goes on in these processes.

This is the first time that I have done this. How can a person with little experience get a job then? Something has to give.

information

I thinks undercuting is a bad idea.

In a large company, you will not get far in the process as you don't tick the boxes correctly.

In a small company they will grill you extra hard to see why you don't think you are worth the money they are prepared.

Also some people might think that you were just stupid and didn't read the job spec correctly and did yourself out of money.

If you are going to undercut you should include a explaination in the cover letter explaining why.

calsatron

If its an "entry level" position then theres no need to lowball yourself. You'll go in at the bottom of the scale and thats it.

Do you think Dunnes would give you preference if you walked in and said you'd stack shelves for 2 euro's an hour less than the lads who are doing it at the moment, no, the manager would just think your a headcase and potential grief. Although I'd be surprised if it wasn't a common enough occurance.

If, however, Dunnes senior management decided (and if they could) to pay everyone stacking shelves 2 euros less an hour then that'd be whats on offer take it or leave it.

Junior position salaries are decided "en masse" and negotiation room is limited.

fobster

This is something I'm curious about. I applied for a trainee risk analyst position at a bank not too long ago and it asked for salary expectations on the application form. I put down €26000, got the figure from the Brightwater salary survey for the banking sector.

I've seen the position advertised by the employer themselves and several agencies. The employer doesn't disclose any salary level while salaries quoted by the agencies fall into the 20-30k, 25-35k and 30-40k ranges, I have no relevant experience so I wouldn't really be undercutting if my expectations fall into two of the above ranges, would I?

The Hill Billy

OP - As someone who has hired IT staff over the years I must tell you that TheMole & Calsatron have a better understanding of recruitment than you do.

Pitching below the offered rate in nonsense. If I was reviewing an application in which the candidate asked for less than what was being offered I would assume that they did not consider that they were up to the minimum requirements of the role to start with.

That said I'd be very interested to hear how you get on. Best of luck regardless.

dellas1979

I understand completely what ye are saying - thats why I posted - looking for feedback on this.....

But what I am trying to say is that it is never as simple as Step 1, Step 2, Step 3.

There are many sub-steps, if you will, in between.

As I said, this is the first time that I have done this, in an effort to get into the job that I want to.

I have tried time and time again for positions like this, and its always the same "little experience", so in a revert way, why not pay someone with little experience, with qualifications, who is happy to work away on €28,000?

It doesnt say anything about my confidence in myself.

The only thing I can say is, ok, maybe I should have put it in a better way/explanation so they can see why I am doing this.

calsatron

If your desperate for experience then your best bet is to try and find some way you can gain it through voluntary work or internship. I know through experience that certain semi-state bodies take on unpaid clerical interns periodically, although that was in conjunction with the University they were studying with.

If you need to work, and who doesn't, to pay bills etc and can't go down that road then try and find something you can do in the evenings or weekends. If it's IT you want to get into then how about volunteering for a charity helping pensioners access the web or somesuch, there's got to be one out there and gauranteed they'll be looking for volunteers.

This'll have the double benefit of giving you something interesting to put in the "Other Interests" section of your CV that'll help you stand out.

The Hill Billy

dellas1979 wrote:

I have tried time and time again for positions like this, and its always the same "little experience"

I feel for you. It must be a bitch. And more power to you for trying an alternative approach. Thinking "outside the box" is a bloody good start.

dellas1979 wrote:

Why not pay someone with little experience, with qualifications, who is happy to work away on €28,000?

Because for €2,000 more you'll get someone that you'll feel confident can do the job.

dellas1979 wrote:

It doesnt say anything about my confidence in myself.

But the person hiring may think otherwise. I would.

What line of IT are you interested in getting into? Maybe I can help or offer advice. Send me a PM if you'd like.

calsatron

Another good point is to play them at their own game.

If you only have a little exeperience then don't say

"I have a little experience of....."
say
"I have experience of....."
or (personal favourite of mine)
" I have strong experience in........"
which is wonderfully ambiguous and could potentially mean anything, if anyone pushes you on the details then you could respond that although the time you spent working on it was limited its was a highly demanding project that exposed you to a wide variety....blah..blah etc etc.

Don't be afraid to tailor your CV, as long as you don't tell any out and out lies you'll be fine. A level of gamesmanship is expected and no company is 100% about anybody they hire, thats why there's always a trial period.

I'm sure most interviewers wouldn't tell you, if asked, that the company currently had a wage freeze, atmosphere was awful and the coffee machine was always empty so they don't expect you to protray yourself in anything but the most beneficial light.

mickoneill30

It makes no difference.

For most jobs I've gotten, wages didn't come up until they wanted to hire me.

And for any job I've ever interviewed for, money was not part of my criteria. Generally I was handed 4 or 5 CVs and told to pick a couple. Normally it'd be one techie and one manager doing the interview. If the techie said no way, I can't see a HR guy going "Oh but he's 2 grand less than someone better".