the frayed ends of sanity

phantom_lord

my image is top notch at this point. first guy is 20/12 tag, second guy is 19/15, and 3-bets a bit too much imo.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($125.06)
MP ($259.90)
Hero ($109.90)
SB ($105.10)
BB ($149.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8, 7.
UTG raises to $4, MP raises to $12, Hero raises to $32

bops

hear them callin...

hear them calling ME!!!!!

that's fking freaky - i'm listening to ...and justice for all for the first time in ages!!

wp

bops

btw i like the move - if only you had a lot more behind to make it pay

bops

furthermore i believe having the button, whilst good for you, takes away from the apparent strenght of your move

robinlacey

a little too risky in my opinion-the cold 4bet can be done occassionally from the blinds when its a cutoff v button situation,but in this situation its not worth it,if UTG is 20/12 then he's probably raising like 4 or 5 % of the time from utg,he rarely has less than a premium hand here,and at .50/1 i don't think there's really a need for this type of preflop agression.

cardshark202

I don't like this. And what do you mean by your image being to notch?

BigCityBanker

phantom_lord wrote:

aggghhh. start off the session really well, then drop 3 buyins in 20mins on one table.

any correlation. You also commented last week on a thread that you were on the bottom end of a 15buyin downswing! Doing sh1t like this its hardly surprising.

-Did you 4 bet like this cos you saw somebody write about it on 2+2?
-Did you 4 bet like this so that you could put it up on an internet forum/blog if you got away with it and write comments like "pwnd" and "balla"?
-Do you consider that any of the opponents at your table were good enough to realise that you had a top notch image?

conclusion - leak.

Worst of all if you did happen to get away with it on this occasion you are likely to try and repeat it numerous times and it will certainly be a leak by then.

jbravado

your not deep enough to try this surely?

BuChan

pretty adventureous with 110BB. if the MP player is 3betting too much shouldn't you should probably take him on when an utg tag wasn't the original raiser, if utg pushes you're getting over 2.1 to call and so probably should (i think...) potentially getting allin preflop with 87s is kind of unnessacary.

bops

jbravado wrote:

your not deep enough to try this surely?

agreed - but i think the trick to this move is that you are not deep enough - ie. it looks like you've committed yourself - which shows obv strenght

i take it that you still fold to a push?

bops

BigCityBanker wrote:

-Did you 4 bet like this cos you saw somebody write about it on 2+2?
-Did you 4 bet like this so that you could put it up on an internet forum/blog if you got away with it and write comments like "pwnd" and "balla"?

That's a tad harsh imo

in fairness to PL, he's one of the few posters here who's got a bit of game in them - i guess for the most part he grinds away, but i believe his edge is that he has the ability to make such plays

also it's a bit rich comming from you KJ boy

BigCityBanker

bops wrote:

That's a tad harsh imo

Perhaps, but im curious as to why he does this move? Surely not cos he thinks its good poker? I consider myself to be a very limited player but I do know for a number of reasons that this is rancid in the extreme.

bops wrote:

also it's a bit rich comming from you KJ boy

very fair.

RoundTower

phantom_lord wrote:

my image is top notch at this point.

for me this means this would be a good time to pick up AA.

Lafortezza

BS deleted.

Back on topic. ty.

ianmc38

I dont like it with an UTG raiser. If it was cutoff/button and you one of the blinds or button/SB vs you BB then I'd like it.

BCB your fist 2 comments are ridiculous. Light 4 betting is an essential component of any successful 6-max strategy albeit when used sparingly. I doubt Shane was posting it to big himself up in anyway.

El Stuntman

what's with the thread title?

BigCityBanker

ianmc38 wrote:

BCB your fist 2 comments are ridiculous. Light 4 betting is an essential component of any successful 6-max strategy albeit when used sparingly. I doubt Shane was posting it to big himself up in anyway.

I never said it wasnt, I do it myself. But I dont think it is best applied in the situation above.

In the above example you are *hoping* that 2 players fold (1 of which is an UTG raiser with stats that put him as a TAG) rather than having anything to base it on that they might actually fold.

I would much rather 4 bet from the CO/button against 1 villian who is in the blinds who you have reason to believe is 3 betting equally as light as you are 4 betting.

cold 4 betting against two villians is hardly a good strategy - hence my opening comments? For what other reason would one logically 4 bet in this situation? I will stand corrected to a compelling argument in favour of the OP's move - I think it will be very hard to costruct such an argument though.

El Stuntman

BigCityBanker wrote:

cold 4 betting against two villians is hardly a good strategy - hence my opening comments? For what other reason would one logically 4 bet in this situation?

boredom/action junkie move imo

Hectorjelly

It actually essential to do it at higher stakes. In fact anywhere your opponents will think a cold 4 bet is nearly always aces, and will fold QQ or less I would do it from time to time. For PLs play to be good both raisers before him have to have slightly wide ranges, in that they arent just opening AA or KK, and both tight enough to fold QQ or worse.

robinlacey

its not essential to cold 4bet at higher stakes at all,at least not at 5/10 to 25/50,maybe higher than that but i seriously doubt it.

Hectorjelly

Well when I say essential, I mean I personally believe that its bad to cold 4 bet with a range of just AA KK against tight opponents.

robinlacey

BCB i think your comments are fairly harsh,phantom lord posts a lot of hands here and takes part in a lot of discussions,he encountered a situation in which he tried something out and then posted about it,surely that's what the boards are for?

with all the talk of 3 and 4betting on twoplustwo its hard for people to figure out when it is necessary/appropriate,if at all,and i don't think phantom lord's motives should be questioned like that when he tries something new,even if its not a great play.

robinlacey

Hectorjelly wrote:

Well when I say essential, I mean I personally believe that its bad to cold 4 bet with a range of just AA KK against tight opponents.

fair enough yeah,i do too but there's loads of winners at mid-high stakes who never do it,and i don't think its a leak.

anyway,from what i've read on twoplustwo the cold 4bet is passe and cold calling the 3bet then check raising all in on the flop is all the rage now!

BuChan

robinlacey wrote:

fair enough yeah,i do too but there's loads of winners at mid-high stakes who never do it,and i don't think its a leak.

anyway,from what i've read on twoplustwo the cold 4bet is passe and cold calling the 3bet then check raising all in on the flop is all the rage now!

lol! that's quite a move allright. hard to do when you're on the button though

semibluff

i like the move, just against the wrong players, and each player would have to have well over the initial max buy in for this to work IMO

Harsh comments unneccesary. Different styles of play make learning and improving fun

robinlacey

can all the people who think this sort of move should be done while deeper explain why?

BuChan

robinlacey wrote:

can all the people who think this sort of move should be done while deeper explain why?

if the stack are very deep flops and turn cards can be played.

Hectorjelly

I assume its because people are more likely to stack off with 100bbs and queens than 200bb. I actually think 100-150 is perfect, any more and people may call to hit a set or similar and I usually just check fold if they call me, as they should always have AA or KK.

robinlacey

only if they're insanely deep,i doubt there's been more than a handful of turns played in 4bet pots in the history of .50/1

(crosspost-i was responding to buchan)

BuChan

robinlacey wrote:

only if they're insanely deep,i doubt there's been more than a handful of turns played in 4bet pots in the history of .50/1

yeah that's true, i usually play live without the capped buyin. it's somewhat rare for 3 or more players to have 300bb+ at .50/1 online.

BigCityBanker

robinlacey wrote:

BCB i think your comments are fairly harsh,phantom lord posts a lot of hands here and takes part in a lot of discussions,he encountered a situation in which he tried something out and then posted about it,surely that's what the boards are for?.

with all the talk of 3 and 4betting on twoplustwo its hard for people to figure out when it is necessary/appropriate,if at all,and i don't think phantom lord's motives should be questioned like that when he tries something new,even if its not a great play.

fair points and noted.

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

any correlation. You also commented last week on a thread that you were on the bottom end of a 15buyin downswing! Doing sh1t like this its hardly surprising.

-Did you 4 bet like this cos you saw somebody write about it on 2+2?
-Did you 4 bet like this so that you could put it up on an internet forum/blog if you got away with it and write comments like "pwnd" and "balla"?
-Do you consider that any of the opponents at your table were good enough to realise that you had a top notch image?

conclusion - leak.

Worst of all if you did happen to get away with it on this occasion you are likely to try and repeat it numerous times and it will certainly be a leak by then.

??

I did this once in 30k hands. I just felt at the time it was a really good spot to try this out.

The three buyins were kk vs aa, qq vs aa on a low board against an agro opponent, and a hand where i tried to rep a set against a guy but he called me down with ak, that was a bit dubious! but i actually think i should get away with it. I did this move once in 30k hands so my downswing has nothing to do with this, it's more to do with the amount of sick coolers I'm getting.

no, I 4bet cause I thought it was a good spot.

eh, no.

yes.

um, that's why I posted it here. I tried something out, it worked, but I wasn't sure if it was a viable thing to be doing.

phantom_lord

we're 5 handed, so he's utg+1 btw, 12%pfr is still a wide enough range I think, and I really can't see either of them calling without kk or aa.

I don't see why being deeper would be any advantage, if they call I'm just gonna check fold without some sort of miracle flop.

but everything robin said makes sense.

jbravado

My thoughts are similar to Buchans.I dont particularly like the idea of having a third of my tank in with the intention of folding to a rrai-(which is highly probable considering the villians image) or
b) pretty much giving up on the hand if we get a cold call from behind as it should be aa or kk.Any further action will be an allin.

At least if were deeper theres a little play left in the hand and we may get to see the turn and play the hand out.

Again this is from the perspective of playing almost exclusivly live where 400-500 bb deep is pretty common.

phantom_lord

jbravado wrote:

My thoughts are similar to Buchans.I dont particularly like the idea of having a third of my tank in with the intention of folding to a rrai-(which is highly probable considering the villians image) or
b) pretty much giving up on the hand if we get a cold call from behind as it should be aa or kk.Any further action will be an allin.

At least if were deeper theres a little play left in the hand and we may get to see the turn and play the hand out.

Again this is from the perspective of playing almost exclusivly live where 400-500 bb deep is pretty common.

I think it's highly improbable he's going to shove considering his image. I think he has thrash here a lot.

and i think doing this really deep would be pretty bad as I'm far more likely to be called.

BuChan

phantom_lord wrote:

I think it's highly improbable he's going to shove considering his image. I think he has thrash here a lot.

and i think doing this really deep would be pretty bad as I'm far more likely to be called.

if you're deep you'll get called by a pretty wide range and you don't have to just giveup when called and you haven't risked more than 1/3 of you stack to increase only 1/7. why do you think he has trash here a lot? early position raise and middle position reraise, there's no stong reason to think either of these two players are weak. even if the mp player 3bets too much he will have a hand sometimes. i like the move when the raises have come from different positions but in this spot it seems a bit gamble gamble.

sidenote, i think jbravado and i have a sick desire to play big pots with 87 sooted

phantom_lord

i was curious so i posted this

could be an interesting thread. assuming bcb doesn't go and troll it!

Goodluck2me

i actually liked your line here as a change, your simply picking a spot to manipulate, i dont like it with AA considering your image they should fold most hands here. You cant wait for hands every session it should do your image/metagame no harm long term if called anyway.

P.S. BCB stop trolling, that post provided nothing constructive, it`s simply unhelpful, and makes you sound like a twat TBH.

phantom_lord

i posted this hand on ftr, and gabe said go figure out what % the second dude 3bets light, and what % he shoves over my 4bet to see if this was ok so i did!


thanks to redjoker for looking over this and fixing it up a bit.


The first raisers range is something like:

AA,KK,QQ,JJ,1010,99,88,77,66,55,44,33,22 13x6=78 -6 combos, as i have 87s

ak,aq,aj,a10,,kq,kj,qj 7x12=84

aks,aqs,ajs,a10s,kqs, kjs,kts,qjs 8x4=32




188

12 of kk/aa


188/12=15.66


6.38%

so he shoves everytime he has aa/kk, which is 6.38% of the time he raises.


co's 3betting range I put together as:

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010 = 30

Aks, aqs, = 8

ako, aqo, = 24

87s, 67s, = 7


69/12


17%

so he shoves everytime he has aa/kk, which is 17% of the time he 3bets.

6.28% of 17%=15.98

16+6.38=22.98%

this is the % of the time either one shoves.

so...

77.02% of the time I win 17.5, and 22.98% of the time I lose 32?


.7702(17.5)-.2298(32)=

13.47-7.35=$6.12

ok?

RedJoker

Just one small correction which trickles down. I didn't go through it in detail as I thought you were just doing it out of curiosity. Your point still stands though.

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010 = 30

Aks, aqs, = 8

ako, aqo, = 24

87s, 67s, = 7


69/12


17.39%

so he shoves everytime he has aa/kk, which is 17% of the time he 3bets.

6.28% of 17%=15.98

16+6.38=22.98%

17.39% + 6.38% - (17.39% x 6.38%) = 23.76%

this is the % of the time either one shoves.

so...

76.24% of the time I win 17.5, and 23.78% of the time I lose 32?


.7624(17.5)-.23.78(32)=

13.24 - 7.61 = $5.63

Chucky the tree

BCB you have an uncanny knack to make yourself about as appealling as a dose of syphilis.

Jesus Wept

phantom_lord wrote:

i was curious so i posted this

could be an interesting thread. assuming bcb doesn't go and troll it!

heh, that thread was like an M Night Shyamalan movie (except, it wasn't sh1t), nice twist at the end.

robinlacey wrote:

fair enough yeah,i do too but there's loads of winners at mid-high stakes who never do it,and i don't think its a leak.

anyway,from what i've read on twoplustwo the cold 4bet is passe and cold calling the 3bet then check raising all in on the flop is all the rage now!

Is it possible the poker world could get someone to update us every month on what's in fashion and what's not (preferably an incredibly camp guy, for comedy value, though this may wear thin, quickly), I can't be arsed trawling 2+2 to find out.

HiCloy

I don't like this - as others have said, UTG's range will be tight enough and the other guy's 3bet should be tighter than usual too seeing as he's reraising an UTG raiser

phantom_lord

HiCloy wrote:

I don't like this - as others have said, UTG's range will be tight enough and the other guy's 3bet should be tighter than usual too seeing as he's reraising an UTG raiser

but it's +ev...

phantom_lord

even if i add in QQ for both of them it's still +ev, albeit not by very much.

188/18=10.44


9.58%

69/18


26.32%

90.42% of 26.32%=23.79%

23.79%+9.58%= 33.37%

this is the % of the time either one shoves.

so...

66.63% of the time I win 17.5, and 33.37% of the time I lose 32


.6663(17.5)-.3337(32)=

11.66-10.68=$.98