conversion

After seeing people in the A&A forum posting on a thread about faith saying "pick mine pick mine" I was wondering what you all thought of the idea of buddhists trying to convert people to buddhism
I mean, I wouldn't suggest it at all unless someone was already heading in that direction... it would just seem to be against the whole point to me, since it involves a lot of critical thinking rather than faith
anyway! Opinions?

Asiaprod

Ooops, sorry bluewolf I thought I had replied to this, my post went missing. I do approve of opening a persons eyes to Buddhism; I don't like to use the term convert to buddhism. The Buddha expounded this Buddhism to enable people to be happy, I feel it is only right for me as a Buddhist to continue on his work. However, this should be on a Heart-to-Heart level, i.e. no mass convertion movements. I would need to feel a conection, as I have, with any I would try to explain Buddhism to. I have myself convinced three people to follow this path, I married one of them and the other is my daughter:)
We also have an intereting term here in Japan called Kaiyu, this is a person who supports our ideals, but has not taken refuge i.e committed to becoming a Buddhist

hairyheretic

So would you apply that term to someone who holds buddhist type values without claiming to be a buddhist, or indeed professing another belief?

Dagon

I've been with my girlfriend for a year now. I had thought that when you fall in love with somebody, it would be unconditional and that you wouldn't need them to be spiritually inclined in order to find happiness in the relationship.

However, sometimes when I think of marriage or kids I feel a little bit unsure about going ahead, unless there is the sanity of spiritual guidance for both of us in life, in marriage, in child rearing... it is one thing to persue this path for yourself, and find great relief and happiness through it...but questions arise when you enter into a long term relationship, and you want to be able to share the peace and the happiness of the spiritual teaching that you practice with your partner. You do not want to keep this to yourself.... you will want this healing to permeate throughout your potential family and to heal deeply every step of the way. If two people practice, then the power is even greater.

I suppose I had this idea that if I was in a relationship with someone, they would magically start to share my meditation practice after they had seen how much it benefits me. But when this dream doesn't come true, what is the best way to proceed?

By the way, I practise Vipassana meditation, and have done courses in ireland and abroad.

maitri

When people try to convert me into their belief system (no matter what religion or philosophy they belong to) I usually get sad (or even angry), because it feels like my autonomy is not respected and also that I am somehow not really accepted the way I am.

Also when I am with people who very much want me to change my belief system (into their way of thinking) I also feel bad because it's like they have an agenda other than just having a good time being together.

Yet I do not doubt that most missionaries have very good intentions.

I don't see explaining a religion or a philosophy - or experiences connected to this - when asked as the same as converting people.
Discussing one's different beliefs can be delightful, IMO - if done with respect (and without the idea of changing eachother).

I don't think Buddhism has a tradition of agressive mission. The Dalai Lama even says:

"Don't try to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist;
use it to be a better whatever-you-already-are."

MeditationMom

Great idea for a thread, Bluewolf!

The first thing I started to think about is "what is conversion?" and I didn't have any religion in mind. In general conversion would mean to me to "turn" - away from a life focused on material success and all that that includes, to a life that has spiritual growth as it's priority and is willing to sacrifice material success, status, social advantages etc. for that, rather than the other way around, where we sacrifice spiritual values in order to gain more in the world, be that money, power, status, mates, and success in general. The two do not mutually exclude each other, but deep in our hearts we need to inquire which one is truely our priority. All through life and its various circumstances we may fluctuate, course correct etc. Here is a story to make this point -

Two monks meet on the path. One of them is smoking. The other one asks him: "Did you check with Master about smoking?" "Yes", the smoking monk answers.

The non-smoking monk is confused and says: "So did I, but he told me it was not OK for me to smoke." After a long moment of silence - and a few more puffs :-) - the first monk looks at him and asks: "What did you ask?"

The other monk answers: "I asked:" Master, may I smoke while meditating?" "Ah", says the smoking monk, "That explains it. I asked him: "Can I meditate while smoking?"

As far as religions go, to want to convert anyone to one's own religion, or to keep people from converting to other religions, can have many motivations, all the way up and down the spiritual/material scale. Buddhists may be the least likely to get involved in conversion efforts as they may see this as interference in someones life, in other words, a small act of violence. But to welcome, explain and invite - like Asia has done with his wife and daughter - seems acceptable unless "influencing" is considered too much even. It is more and more the from of conversion effort that happens in Christianity these days, and ceratinly better thna the old days. Much to do about nothing anyway as all religions ultimately are about kindness and compassion. By sword - or suicide bombs - is a bit Middle Ages, and a big misunderstanding of any true teachings.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

So would you apply that term to someone who holds buddhist type values without claiming to be a buddhist, or indeed professing another belief?

I would indeed. Matter of fact, I would call most I have conversed with on Boards IE Kaiyu. Kaiyu can be translated as Friend. This is one of the major aspects of Buddhism that attracted me in the first place. These three points were drummed into me.
1. A Buddhist accepts each person as they find them.
2. A Buddhist's focus is for every one to be able to achieve happiness.
3. A Buddhist's drive is to help, in a no-invasive and respectful manner, all people to find happiness.

This is an interesting quote that sums it all up easily for me at least:

"Buddhism is a teaching conveyed through the mentor-disciple relationship.
The oneness, or shared commitment, of mentor and disciple forms the essence
of Buddhist practise. If we forget the mentor-disciple relationship, we
cannot attain Buddhahood.

I think Maitri hit the nail on the head when she said

"I don't see explaining a religion or a philosophy - or experiences connected to this - when asked as the same as converting people.

Thats it for me in a nut shell

meditationmom wrote:

like Asia has done with his wife and daughter - seems acceptable unless "influencing" is considered too much even.

This is funny in that my greatest "influencing" comes from my wife. I can't tell you the number of times I have said to myself I should never have influenced her in the first place:D She always seems to be right, and corrects me accordingly with many small act of violence. Lucky I love her:D
Our kid on the other hand is left to do her own thing with the minimum harassment from us, but it is clear to see she naturally follows her parents values.

Asiaprod

Hi Dagon, I have taken the liberty of combining your thread (see post #4 above) with this one as I believe your wonderful question is very closely associated with the content of this thread and has a great bearing on the idea/method of conversion to Buddhism. I will have a lot more to say on this later as I also had to deal with the same issue when I first married. My wife was not a Buddhist, and had no intention of becoming one initially. She is one now, and would never change (added by way of a smack on the ear from the said boss).
Hope this is OK with you.
Asia

Asiaprod

Sorry for this guys, three posts in a row must be a record, but I don't want to mix up the topics to much.

Dagon wrote:

I suppose I had this idea that if I was in a relationship with someone, they would magically start to share my meditation practice after they had seen how much it benefits me. But when this dream doesn't come true, what is the best way to proceed?

Step one would be to re-visit what you wrote "I've been with my girlfriend for a year now. I had thought that when you fall in love with somebody, it would be unconditional and that you wouldn't need them to be spiritually inclined in order to find happiness in the relationship."

This for me would be the right approach to adopt. Just because you practice Vipassana meditation is no reason for any partner to do the same. This holds true for any belief system. First and foremost, your practice should be centered on your good self. You are responsible for your own life before anyone's. This was the approach I took with my girlfriend, later my wife. In my case, the organization that represents my school had a very bad public image and she had experienced their negative side. It would have been suicide to push the issue. I felt the same as you, I wanted to pass on this great system to my wife, believing that this would create some kind of magical relationship. It was quickly pointed out to me by individual Buddhists I respected that this was not the case. I was taught that the best way to achieve my goal was to just be myself, but be much better at it than before. If I was going to succeed to persuade my wife to join me it should be because she admired what I was and what I stood for. In addition, the peace and the spiritual happiness of the teaching that I practiced would form an umbrella of protection and enlightenment over my loved ones and it would just be a matter of time before my other half's eyes were opened. This rang true, I don't even remember when it happened it was that natural. I believe that the same will happen for you. You do not need to push or worry about it, just continue on developing your relationship, and more important, yourself. Everything is just a matter of time and respect.

MeditationMom

by Asiaprod - ...and corrects me accordingly with many small act of violence. Lucky I love her

Sweet Those small acts of violence are custom designed directly for our enlightenment.

I had an interesting experience a few years ago where I was giving a meditation/talk. The silence in the room became so deep that I experienced having to say something after half an hour as an act of violence. To the air and to the silence, if you will. I had to actually overcome it, since the people where there for the talk as much as for the meditation.

Later on it turned out that this particular meeting had a 35-year-old woman attending who had been raped at age 12 by a man breaking into her room while she was quitely sitting in it and enjoying her peace. She couldn't go to meditations because of this and suffered anytime it became peaceful around her. A friend of hers had urged her to come. She made it through the whole hour, in terror that finally disolved into peace. She later told me that it broke her horrible conditioning. I am not quite sure how it worked, but my guess is that because I was a woman, and she trusted her friend as well as me, she allowed me - my voice - to "come at her" during a deep silence. Somehow I must have been aware of "the danger" since I was ultra careful about how I entered "the room of silence" with the sound of my voice.

So there is a scale to violence. In deepest meditation even a thought would be considered violence we do to ourselves Talking my husband's head off - when I do - is great violence Trying to convert someone could be seen as pretty extreme as Maitri describes, even making her angry - but, nothing in comparison to rape. So there are two things to look at: What is violence?
and, What does violence mean to an individual? The levels of violence in realation to a person's understanding and sensitivity. We also need to consider our own resistance as an amplifier to violence coming at us.

Ultimately - there is no violence - or all can be considered violence. The golden middle path - many small acts of violence

maitri

MeditationMom wrote:

I had an interesting experience a few years ago where I was giving a meditation/talk. The silence in the room became so deep that I experienced having to say something after half an hour as an act of violence. To the air and to the silence, if you will. I had to actually overcome it, since the people where there for the talk as much as for the meditation.

Later on it turned out that this particular meeting had a 35-year-old woman attending who had been raped at age 12 by a man breaking into her room while she was quitely sitting in it and enjoying her peace. She couldn't go to meditations because of this and suffered anytime it became peaceful around her. A friend of hers had urged her to come. She made it through the whole hour, in terror that finally disolved into peace. She later told me that it broke her horrible conditioning. I am not quite sure how it worked, but my guess is that because I was a woman, and she trusted her friend as well as me, she allowed me - my voice - to "come at her" during a deep silence.

Poor girl!
Glad to hear that she eventually was helped.
It seems like you - without knowing it - led a very successful "exposure therapy session". Exposure to silence.