Diamond Sutra

maitri

Hi!

I have been re-reading the Diamond Cutter Sutra and would very much like to know how other people understand this text which seems to be about generosity and shunyata, if anyone here would like to discuss it?

To start on the beginning, I’d be interested in knowing how you understand the statement no bodhisattva who is a real bodhisattva cherishes the idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated individuality.?

Here in context:

Section III. The real teaching of the great way
Buddha said: Subhuti, all the bodhisattva-heroes should discipline their thoughts as follows: All living creatures of whatever class, born from eggs, from wombs, from moisture, or by transformation, whether with form or without form, whether in a state of thinking or exempt from thought-necessity, or wholly beyond all thought realms-all these are caused by me to attain unbounded liberation nirvana. Yet when vast, uncountable, immeasurable numbers of beings have thus been liberated, verily no being has been liberated. Why is this, Subhuti? It is because no bodhisattva who is a real bodhisattva cherishes the idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated individuality.

(Also section XXXII and XXXII seem to contain similar statements).

According to a Buddhist saying the highest form of generosity is to “give without a notion of a giver, a gift or a receiver”, and I think perhaps it is based on this Sutra.
I have heard different interpretations of this statement and I would very much like to know how you understand this or if you have some thoughts about it.

Also I wonder if anyone could recommend a good translation? I have used this:

http://www.tantra.co.nz/tantrahome/spirituallibrary/diamondsutra.htm

And here's a slightly different one:

http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-1

Regards,

M-

18AD

I'd interpret this along the lines of there being one universal process or Tao or what-have-you. As everything is the one process there is no need to differentiate between a giver and a receiver and even a gift. Therefore there is no idea of an ego or an individual as they are only ideas.
Maybe a more practical explanation would be to stop confusing reality with language. And maybe adopt a more all-inclusive interpretation of things
When one has been liberated they realise that there was no one to liberate, hence nobody is liberated at all.

I always find language a limitation when talking about these things. It's always fun though

Take care.

maitri

18AD wrote:

I'd interpret this along the lines of there being one universal process or Tao or what-have-you. As everything is the one process there is no need to differentiate between a giver and a receiver and even a gift.
Therefore there is no idea of an ego or an individual as they are only ideas.

Thanks for your answer. I like the idea of one universal process (or Tao).

18AD wrote:

Maybe a more practical explanation would be to stop confusing reality with language.

Or ideas.

18AD wrote:

I always find language a limitation when talking about these things. It's always fun though

Yeah. I see what you mean...

BTW, I found another interpretation of "giving without a notion of a giver or receiver". It's kind of on another - more everyday - level. The main point was that when we give from our heart - that is freely and not out of guilt, shame, fear, obligation, duty or ideology - it fills us with so much happiness that in a way giving = receiving.
The person who came with that interpretatien also thinks that enriching other peoples lives is actually one of our basic human needs (like freedom, acceptance, contact, clarity...etc...).:)

MeditationMom

by 18AD - When one has been liberated they realise that there was no one to liberate, hence nobody is liberated at all.

by 18AD - I always find language a limitation when talking about these things. It's always fun though

Blackhorse Slim

maitri wrote:

The person who came with that interpretatien also thinks that enriching other peoples lives is actually one of our basic human needs (like freedom, acceptance, contact, clarity...etc...).:)

There are no other peoples lives to enrich. There is only life.

MeditationMom

by Blackhorse Slim -There are no other peoples lives to enrich. There is only life.

Everybody making me smile in this thread. This truth above is of course a much misunderstood one - as all truths

Let's look at "there is only life". What does that mean? Biological life? All of us following our biological programming - some of us "enriching" other people's lives, some of us "destroying" other people's lives? Is it all on automatic and we are just thinking of I-s and You-s relating and interacting, when it is nothing but an overall life-process open to endless interpretations? Kind of like the yeast in our bread just bubbling over - until it is done - but all the little yeasties thinking they are good or bad, enriching or destroying "life"?

The question is can we go beyond what is called life, or ultimately, death and be that?

To say "there is only life" may be wrong even. All things - even life and light - have limitations, beginnings and endings - so they cannot be ALL, or "the only" thing there is.

The only thing is exactly that. The only thing. No-thing.

Blackhorse Slim

MeditationMom wrote:

To say "there is only life" may be wrong even. All things - even life and light - have limitations, beginnings and endings - so they cannot be ALL, or "the only" thing there is.

Whether there is only life, whether or not all life is one, is to me unimportant. For me, whether the 'truths' of Buddhism are true or not is less important than whether they are good.

And they are good.

spruced

To start on the beginning, I’d be interested in knowing how you understand the statement no bodhisattva who is a real bodhisattva cherishes the idea of an ego-entity, a personality, a being, or a separated individuality.?

Due to the Sutra's recommendation of learning even one line, I memorized this section and often recite it to myself. It's like installing and running anti-virus software.