Interesting Hand

BigCityBanker

Effective Stacks 7500, level one of an MTT

Folded to you on the button with K6 and you open to 225, SB makes it 675, you call. (Pot 1400)

Flop AK4, SB bets 1050, you call (pot 3,850)

Turn 7, check check

River brick SB shoves for c.5,400..... call or fold

Villian is a Bad LAG, you feel his range from 3 betting from the SB is very big, his continuation bet frequency is very high.

(this hand happened about 6 weeks ago so certain details are up for correction)

Flushdraw

I fold when the action gets to me preflop, i fold when he raises me preflop, i fold when he bets the flop and i fold when he pushes the river

You dont need to be in this hand with K6 in the 1st level of a deepstack MTT

phantom_lord

ugh. fold pf, fold to the raise. you really shouldn't be in this spot.

robinlacey

i'd fold when he reraises preflop

Katooey

pawned

Ste05

I would also have folded to the original raise. Kxo is such a bad hand here, it's complete garbage.

I'd also have just folded to the flop lead, if I was calling that though I'd also probably be calling the River.

Jayminator

I think a fold pre flop. Is your position really any use to try out play him after the flop. I think he is playing minimum raggy Ace

Ste05

It's basically impossible to outplay someone with these stacks and the size of the pot without risking all our chips on what will usually be a stone cold bluff.

HeeHawsCantona

why do you not 4 bet preflop if you think that? - personally I would almost never play K6o against that sort of player at this stage.
why do you not reraise the flop?
betting is very much about gleaning information, if I was the villian I'm putting you on KQ, KJ or something like that - he either has jack**** or he's hit the river for 2 pair or a set - I dont think you can call - it's a poor situation to have got yourself in

Ste05

HeeHawsCantona wrote:

betting is very much about gleaning information

It really isn't, and before you get berated by others, because you're new here I'll just explain that there are a few reasons to bet, none of which include to gain information: (1) for value when you think you have the best hand; and (2) to bluff and to try and make a better hand then yours fold (this includes semi-bluffing); (3) to build a pot (basically this can also be part of the Value bet in (1) and also incorporates the semi-bluff part of (2); betting for information is terrible as often times the information you think you get is wrong, and you'll usually make a weaker hand fold or bluff you and a better hand call or raise, (I presume you are folding to a raise) overall it's just bad, let a weaker hand bluff at you and don't inflate the pot for a stronger hand.

Obviously there's loads more to this, but just to let you know why people will be telling you why betting for information is terrible.

HeeHawsCantona

While betting for all of the reason that you have mentioned we are still primarily gleaning information about the strenght of our hand and our opponents especially in live games. Poker is in a massive way about information gathering and betting (and sometimes not betting) especially in a deep stack tournament is the best way to gather and to give information about your hand - otherwise you will never fold a set, get away from a big hand that is behind etc etc. I could go on but if a load of muppets come on and start berating me for making that statement then I really am in the wrong place.

bops

there are many reasons to bet, like you've said Ste, but to gather information is and will always be the primary reason to bet in my opinion

phantom_lord

you bet primarily for value. gaining info is an added benefit. betting to "see where you are" is stupid.

Katooey

phantom_lord wrote:

you bet primarily for value. gaining info is an added benefit. betting to "see where you are" is stupid.

Do you aim to repeat this once a week?

Difficult to put the sb on a hand. Our earlier play aside, I'd call the river.

phantom_lord

only if people keep saying it's a good idea!

HeeHawsCantona

who said to bet to see where you are? i certainly didn't. i told noel that betting is very much about gleaning information and it is. if you disagree well thats just bad for you - i dont really care to be honest.

AKQJ10

check pm buchan

as played call river

BigCityBanker

Villian in this hand is me.

Hero is a poster on this forum who will hopefully give his view on the hand.

Hero called and K6 was good.

Mr.Plough

ugh.

i think your good on the river though afgter he checks the turn so i call.


id probably just bet the turn and take it down there.

BigCityBanker

Mr.Plough wrote:

id probably just bet the turn and take it down there.

Interesting, my plan for the turn was to CRAI on the turn as I expected villian to try and take it down there. When he checked behind i felt my last remaining option to win the hand was to stuff it.

Can hero call if I CRAI on turn?

Mr.Plough

no. but you described the villain as a bad player and i wouldnt expect a bad player to think like that at all. Usually when he checks on the turn, hes giving up the hand.

Hectorjelly

I was watching this thread with interest. Unfortunately it fizzled out a bit.

First of all If I have position and the stacks are deep enough I very rarely fold to three bets any more from aggressive players. BCB had already 3 bet someone about 2 hands previously, so i didnt think his range was that tight. Also I felt like I could win a big pot here if I played it right. My edge for this hand was going to be the fact that I felt Noel was going to play this hand super aggressively, I was going to try and induce a bluff.

The flop isn't a bad one for me. Ive outflopped everything that isnt an ace. I decide to call the 1k and see what happens on the turn.

The turn comes and Noel checks. Betting here would be absolute madness, (as would raising the flop or 4betting preflop(allthough this last one isnt so bad)).
I have a king, and Noel either has an ace or he doesnt. There are almost no hands in between that will fold to a bet. So all betting does is let noel fold the hands im beating, and crai with an ace. If he has QQ here he is going to fold. By checking I keep the pot small and induce a bluff on the river, which was the whole point of the hand.

I think Noels check here gives the game away, I probably would of folded to a big turn bet; but once the check came I felt like noel was giving up and would fold if I bet. So I checked. If I bet here my hand looks like I have at least an ace, and I dont think Noel is going to try and push me off that. If I check my hand looks exactly like it is, really crap.

The river comes and Im autocalling any bet, until Noel pushs! I was a bit shocked at first and considered folding, it would be a sick value push with something like AQ. I hadnt gone this far to give up though, so I called and won.

There was some interesting decisions on either side. A turn bet would of won it but he would of had no idea that my hand was acually quite weak. Most of the time I will have an ace there. When I call the flop, and check the turn I probably only have one pair so the push on the river is quite good. Most players are folding a king there given its the very early stages of a tournament.

BigCityBanker

Mr.Plough wrote:

no. but you described the villain as a bad player and i wouldnt expect a bad player to think like that at all. Usually when he checks on the turn, hes giving up the hand.

I described myself as my opponent would view me! (I think )

sikes

Im sure you could have gone after easier chips and to do it when in position!

BigCityBanker

sikes wrote:

Im sure you could have gone after easier chips and to do it when in position!

This was online, i didnt recognise that is was HJ until a few hours later.

sikes

oh right.

Tar.Aldarion

'Ugh'

You are the value. :P
Interesting, but always fold it preflop.

Lazare

BigCityBanker wrote:

This was online, i didnt recognise that is was HJ until a few hours later.

BB sticky?

BigCityBanker

Lazare wrote:

BB sticky?

If nothing else I think this thread proves my long held opinion that HJ is a fish.

strewelpeter

BigCityBanker wrote:

This was online, i didnt recognise that is was HJ until a few hours later.

How would you play it if You know its HJ?

BigCityBanker

strewelpeter wrote:

How would you play it if You know its HJ?

I still 3bet preflop cos I know his range for opening from the button is any two cards.

I still lead the flop

I deffo lead the turn strongly cos after 3 acts of agression oop to him I reckon he folds even weak aces despite my image. If I lead turn and he calls I stuff river - nothing like firing 4 barrells every now and again.

The turn play was the key to the hand, I reckoned he was calling any flop bet given my image and I would expect most players to try and take it away on the turn once Ive checked. HJ isnt most players and he understands why a check behind with his holding is optimal on the turn. Had he bet I CRAI and he folds out.

I must point out that he timed right down to the last second before he called. I felt straight away it was an excellent call although im sure some people with only half an eye on the hand must have thought it was a little crazy.