Very 1st hand in recent GJP festival. Opinions please

Jayminator

Ok I sit down with 5 sitting at our table. blinds 25/50. Starting stack 15K. I have KK in the BB and raise to 150. 1 Caller. Flop comes

10c Js 4x...

I bet 300 into a 300 pot. Villian throws in 1,500 in chips. Dealer announces raise to which Villian declares that he meant just to call. Dealer over rules and says its a raise. I immediately re pump the pot to 3K and get flat called.

Turn card 10s

I check. Villian checks.... River card a blank. I check villian immediately announces all in for another 12K into a 6K pot.....

What do ya do?????

BigCityBanker

sure its a simple call really, esp against that villian.

valor

fold

Ste05

I raise more Pre-Flop, how many limpers were in the pot?

I also don't min-re-raise the flop, I dunno what I'd do on the River, but could fold or call depending on how I felt at the time, but I'd never have got to this spot in the first place so it's hard to say what I'd do now.

Gus Ivey

you might be ahead a good bit of the time, but i still definitely fold under the circumstances

5starpool

Against Sylvester I call here every time. I don't know how he managed to win in the Macau, every time I have played with him in either holdem or Omaha he has been the value at the table. He is aggressive though, I will give him that.

jhegarty

fold , you can't win on the first hand of a tourney (would call on a cash game though).....


I would have put in a bigish bet when the second 10 came, to see where I was....

Jayminator

1 limper i.e Villian... and I want some action with my KK... Opinions more than just ''fold'' would be greatly received.. LOL to BCB(Noel you know him much better than I did) LOL

Any thought as to why i should fold or call

BigCityBanker

Jayminator wrote:

Any thought as to why i should call

because of the villian in question.

sikes

is he a unknown, if so its an easy fold.

BigCityBanker

sikes wrote:

is he a unknown, if so its an easy fold.

to the contrary - well known individual which makes this an easy call. He thinks he can buy the pot by bluffing 12k into a 6k pot - this has started by him raising instead of calling on the flop - he now thinks hero will fold out almost every holding.

If you knew this guy your chips would beat his to the pot.

DeVore

If he hit trips on the turn would he really check behind on the turn and move in when you check the river? Does he not like chips?

When he makes the mistake with the 1500 raise, I wouldnt simply have min reraised. I think I would have jammed and either hoped for AJ, KJ, KQ etc to make a steaming hero-call.

As it is, I hate the spot but I probably call. You've built this bed, lie in it.

DeV.

mdwexford

in the OP doesnt know him well its an insta-fold, against a decent player your never ahead with K-K when he makes that bet.

agree with Ste05, raise more preflop, hate the min raise on the flop

Jayminator

My point exactly Noel. My thinking and believe me it took about 3 minutes to decide was a number of things.

1) I believed the 10 was irrelevant as I re raised on flop and did nt think the guy would call my re re raise with 2nd pair on flop so i ruled out the 10. Especially when the 2nd 10 came on the turn.

2) Why oh why oh why would anyone hugely over bet a 6K pot in the very 1st hand.

3) If he has pocket JJ and has hit his house would a pot size bet or value bet not be better. Same thinking would apply to the 10. If he did have a 10 then again a value bet would be the way to go..

4) The only hand I could put him on was AJ or a missed flush draw.

Is this line of thinking off the wall or am I just a luck box ballsy mudder fkr who made a marginal call

BigCityBanker

Jayminator wrote:

Is this line of thinking off the wall or am I just a luck box ballsy mudder fkr who made a marginal call

this is an interesting hand, I would like to see HJ articulate why its a call. (I know why its a call but he will explain it alot better). Many of the reasons have been stated here. I will try post a similar hand later.

I really think this is a simple call against said villian. 12k into 6k doesnt go - unless its a stone cold bluff.

DeVore

It would seem like a pretty cunning way to get you to call off your stack with an overpair BCB

(ok, I said call too... but I dont think its simple and I hate the position. I dont think a fold is the worst decision here either. 3k from a 15k stack is a scratch, not a death-knell).

DeV.

mdwexford

a good player could play 10-J in this way, after the 4 bet on the flop its pretty obvious the OP has A-A, K-K or Q-Q. instead of going for a value bet of 3-4k a shove is ok if you think it will get called

i would not like getting 300bb's in here with an just an overpair

BigCityBanker

DeVore wrote:

It would seem like a pretty cunning way to get you to call off your stack with an overpair BCB

(ok, I said call too... but I dont think its simple and I hate the position. I dont think a fold is the worst decision here either. 3k from a 15k stack is a scratch, not a death-knell).

DeV.

I agree fully with you here Dev,

ive seen a good few players implode when they have raised instead of called, they enrage themselves and magnify their earlier mistakes.

Syl cant put Jay on any 10 here with the preflop action and he reckons a 10 is all that can call him.

BigCityBanker

mdwexford wrote:

a good player could play 10-J in this way, after the 4 bet on the flop its pretty obvious the OP has A-A, K-K or Q-Q. instead of going for a value bet of 3-4k a shove is ok if you think it will get called

I disagree with this.

Jays min raise on the flop looks like he is trying to steal the pot back from Syl and I think this min raise probably leads to Syl giving away his chips.

mdwexford

BigCityBanker wrote:

I disagree with this.

Jays min raise on the flop looks like he is trying to steal the pot back from Syl and I think this min raise probably leads to Syl giving away his chips.

i think if he was trying to steal the pot back he would shove, it looks like he still wants action with his Kings to me, why min raise???

i dont know the guy in question so maybe hes on uber tilt after his raise mistake and is shoving with air, seems silly though

DeVore

I dislike everything about Jay's play from the min raise forwards. I find it hard to answer the question of the river call because I can't see how I get there...

I think I can justify calling here, but in reality I think I probably fold if I was to Quantum-Space-like leap into Jay's body when the dealer looks at me for a decision. (yes this is me somewhat changing my mind, I will probably change it back later).


DeV.

Jayminator

So basically all 4 of my reasons for calling were ridiculous... I forgot to mention the stare down from Syl.. Im sorry guys but it stunk to high heaven to me.

yeah i still fancied some action when I discounted the 10's with the min raise which made me put him on AJ.. It was just the way the hand played out and the huge over bet accompanied with the stare down and also a bit of questioning from myself. Believe me it was a tough call but I really really did believe i was ahead so called and i was correct. He had a missed gut shot st8flush draw given to him by the 2nd 10s. Board 10 10s Js x x

He was playin AQ spades..........

nicnicnic

fold i think he has quads:rolleyes: and is angling with the 1500 raise/call on the flop

DITTag

Jayminator wrote:

Ok I sit down with 5 sitting at our table. blinds 25/50. Starting stack 15K. I have KK in the BB and raise to 150. 1 Caller. Flop comes

10c Js 4x...

I bet 300 into a 300 pot. Villian throws in 1,500 in chips. Dealer announces raise to which Villian declares that he meant just to call. Dealer over rules and says its a raise. I immediately re pump the pot to 3K and get flat called.

Turn card 10s

I check. Villian checks.... River card a blank. I check villian immediately announces all in for another 12K into a 6K pot.....

What do ya do?????

Jay i think you have this all wrong!

You were UTG and you made it 150 to go. 1 caller.

Flop: Jc 10s 4s

You bet 600(500 chip and a 100 chip) into a 375 pot. He throws out a 500 chip and a 1,000 chip without saying anything thinking he called. I declare it as a raise and you make it 3,000. He flat calls.

Turn: 10h

Check. Check.

River: 3c

You check and he shoves for 11,850 into a 6,375 pot.

Hitman Actual

DITTag wrote:

Jay i think you have this all wrong!

You were UTG and you made it 150 to go. 1 caller.

Flop: Jc 10s 4s

You bet 600(500 chip and a 100 chip) into a 375 pot. He throws out a 500 chip and a 1,000 chip without saying anything thinking he called. I declare it as a raise and you make it 3,000. He flat calls.

Turn: 10h

Check. Check.

River: 3c

You check and he shoves for 11,850 into a 6,375 pot.

This changes the whole context of the hand quite a bit, and knowing the player in question makes it a lot easier to make the call. His play really fits with a missed draw (from knowledge of him), and it wouldn't always be the big draw that he flopped. Axs could be here a lot as well.

And the 2xpot river push may be strange to people on here, but you have to remember that every newer poker area around the country develops little quirks of it's own. From playing against a lot of players from the Mullingar area, this push definitely isn't unheard of.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Jayminator wrote:

So basically all 4 of my reasons for calling were ridiculous... I forgot to mention the stare down from Syl.. Im sorry guys but it stunk to high heaven to me.

yeah i still fancied some action when I discounted the 10's with the min raise which made me put him on AJ.. It was just the way the hand played out and the huge over bet accompanied with the stare down and also a bit of questioning from myself. Believe me it was a tough call but I really really did believe i was ahead so called and i was correct. He had a missed gut shot st8flush draw given to him by the 2nd 10s. Board 10 10s Js x x

He was playin AQ spades..........

I think simple poker logic goes out the window for me when i read/feel a person has missed his hand...you can only justify the move as you got the read from the palyer. TBH i find a fold here 95% of the time but given the way the hand has played out, the reads you picked up and the player you are up against i think it was the right call to make on this occassion.

DeVore

Hmmmmm the possibility of a missed flush draw does add a little to the "call" argument. It almost rules out a 10 as he has position and shouldnt let you possibly draw to spades without taxing you for it.

This probably flips it back to a call for me (see, told you I'd change my mind!)

The fact that its Sylvester also adds greatly to the "call" camp

DeV.

Marq

jhegarty wrote:

fold , you can't win on the first hand of a tourney (would call on a cash game though).....

With 2 days to go to the money I'd call almost anything that I'd call in a cash game.

BigCityBanker

Jay,

Will you put up on a new thread the final table river bluff against badger wher any Q filled a straight - this time dont forget the hear draw on the turn? I think it would be a really interesting hand to discuss. I think badgers bet on the turn gave you the info you required to bluff the river.

Jayminator

God Noel as you can see from Tag's post I can hardly get the first hand correct. Thank God for good dealers. He was spot on with the hand.

OK ok I might post that final table bluff hand but I should nt give my game away... Ya know yourself.

I was sweating the arm pits that time but felt he could nt call....... Too much beating his AJ..