Hunting and Camping, Knife carrying law?

scorphonic

Hello everyone!!

I hunt quite regularily and understand the law in that respect but what is the law on carrying a knife while out hunting and if I am allowed is there a size restriction? (I'm not looking to carry a 12" sword!! )

Also when your out camping is it illegal to have a swiss army knife or a lock knife or similar size?

Thank you all in advance, just to point out that I am referring to hunting and camping situations only and have absolutely no intention to carry a knife any other time since I know already that this is illegal.

Sparks

Last I checked, the same law applies (the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990). The thing is, if you're hunting or camping, you have a good reason under the act to be carrying a hunting knife, swiss army knife or lock knife.

seamus

scorphonic wrote:

I hunt quite regularily and understand the law in that respect but what is the law on carrying a knife while out hunting and if I am allowed is there a size restriction? (I'm not looking to carry a 12" sword!! )

This is something I've always wondered what the position is. As a teenager, I can remember all sorts of rumours going around about it being illegal to buy a blade over 4". Of course, since I can go into Tesco's and buy a 6" butcher knife off the shelf, I don't think this is the case.

I'm guessing that the difference is intent. If I'm buying the butcher's knife or a 6" hunting knife, I'm probably buying it as a utensil. If I'm buying a 3' sword, there are only two things I can do with it; Hang it on my wall and/or use it as a weapon.

Is there any specific restrictions as to what can be bought - if I want a 12" machete for my camping trip to build myself a shelter, can I just buy it off the shelf, or do I need to register it?

Sparks

As a teenager, I can remember all sorts of rumours going around about it being illegal to buy a blade over 4".

IIRC, there's a rule in the UK on what a blade length has to exceed before it's considered an offensive weapon. I believe it's 3". We don't have that here. The Act allows for just about anything to be considered an offensive weapon (though it makes specific provision for some items which it says automatically are considered to be weapons, like flick knives for example).

BrianD3

seamus wrote:

Is there any specific restrictions as to what can be bought - if I want a 12" machete for my camping trip to build myself a shelter, can I just buy it off the shelf, or do I need to register it?

From looking at the relevant legislation it appears that "machetes" cannot be sold or imported into Ireland (posession may be a different matter)

But machetes are specifically mentioned as are knuckledusters, flick knives, throwing stars etc.

The SI is
S.I. No. 66/1991:
FIREARMS AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS ACT, 1990 (OFFENSIVE WEAPONS) ORDER, 1991

Turner

Flick Knives are a definite no no in this country.

Nevyn

seamus wrote:

This is something I've always wondered what the position is. As a teenager, I can remember all sorts of rumours going around about it being illegal to buy a blade over 4".

It is illegal to carry a pocket knife which is 4 inches or under and it but have only one edge to the blade ie it must be a backed blade with only one edge. Lock knifes are acceptible as long as they fit those specs,
flick knifes, butterfly knifes and stilettos are illegal.

seamus wrote:

Of course, since I can go into Tesco's and buy a 6" butcher knife off the shelf, I don't think this is the case.

You may have your butchers knife at home but to carry it on your person is an offense.

seamus wrote:

If I'm buying a 3' sword, there are only two things I can do with it; Hang it on my wall and/or use it as a weapon.

There are religions where a sword is one of it's tools for rituals.
Carrying a sword is not illegal as long as it is not concealed.

seamus wrote:

Is there any specific restrictions as to what can be bought - if I want a 12" machete for my camping trip to build myself a shelter, can I just buy it off the shelf, or do I need to register it?

Machetes are illegal but a small hatchet, 4 inch pen/pocket knife or a small saw or lock saw are legal and can be used for those purposes.

There is a big difference being off camping and having a hand hatchet as part of your gear and carrying on your person or in a bag.

Sparks

Thaedydal wrote:

It is illegal to carry a pocket knife which is 4 inches or under

Over, surely!
And what's the specific Act for that one?

There are religions where a sword is one of it's tools for rituals.

Not relevant to legality, I would hope!

Carrying a sword is not illegal as long as it is not concealed.

Er, no. It's illegal to walk down O'Connell street with a sword, regardless of whether or not it is concealed. Your only defence would be having a good reason - being on your way to an iaido class for example. And even then, that won't stop you being arrested, it's just a defence you can use in court. And frankly, if you were walking down O'Connell Street with a drawn sword, you're going to have to have a gosh-darn good reason!

Nevyn

Sparks wrote:

Over, surely!
And what's the specific Act for that one?

Sorry I meant under 4 inches is ok and over is not for personal use as a pen/pocket knife.

Sparks wrote:

if you were walking down O'Connell Street with a drawn sword, you're going to have to have a gosh-darn good reason!

There is a difference between a drawn sword and a concealed sword.
There are reasons why a person would be traveling from one place to another with a sword there is a big difference between not carrying concealed and brandishing in public.

Victor

Thaedydal wrote:

There are reasons why a person would be traveling from one place to another with a sword there is a big difference between not carrying concealed and brandishing in public.

Ah, the brandishing word. I was warned not to brandish my pen knife on the hydrofoil from Dover to Ostende. As one of the lads put it "What did he think you were going to do, jump up and order 'Take this hydrofoil to Cuba!'?".

scorphonic

Ok so from what I can gather from the posts is that if I have a knife that is double bladed then it is illegal to carry while outside.This is surprising since I have carried in full view a double sided blade while out kayacking, this blade is about 4" and on one side the blade is your normal run of the mill edge while on the other side there is a saw and rope cutter. It is a miniture version of a hunting knife and is locked into a sheath when not in use. Would this be the wrong choice in knife to bring out, should I ask a local Garda or would there be someone I can ask to be 100% sure as I'm almost convinced that Irish law is written in such a way so that the powers that be can make up things as they go along when it suits them.

johnnyskeleton

scorphonic wrote:

Ok so from what I can gather from the posts is that if I have a knife that is double bladed then it is illegal to carry while outside.

It is illegal to have in a public place anything that has a blade or a point, save where there is a good reason to have it there. source

scorphonic wrote:

should I ask a local Garda or would there be someone I can ask to be 100% sure as I'm almost convinced that Irish law is written in such a way so that the powers that be can make up things as they go along when it suits them.

If you honestly believe that Irish law is just made up as they go along, then no one can tell you anything for 100% certain. It's not, but if that's your view, you'll just have to trust your own judgment.

Sparks

scorphonic wrote:

Would this be the wrong choice in knife to bring out, should I ask a local Garda or would there be someone I can ask to be 100% sure as I'm almost convinced that Irish law is written in such a way so that the powers that be can make up things as they go along when it suits them.

The explanation I've heard from Gardai goes along the lines of "If I see someone coming up from the riverbank with a rod, a tacklebox, a folding seat and a knife on their belt, then it's a piece of equipment. If I see the same someone going into a nightclub later that night with the same knife on their belt, it's an offensive weapon". So my guess would be that this law was written to let the PTB make it up as they go along

jimi_t

Chief--- wrote:

Flick Knives are a definite no no in this country.

Go to any fishing port or village in the country and you'll see them being used all over the place - but get caught with one in a city and it's a different story. I've gone through about 4 in the last few years down in Kerry, but wouldn't carry one in Dublin unless I was fishing, and then I'd keep it in a tackle box. Ditto working in lorries, I've yet to meet a driver who doesn't keep one in the cab.

Given the ambiguity in the law, a lot of this stuff is covered under the "Don't be acting the maggot now" 1972 legislation I think if you've a legitimate reason to be carrying a knife or whatever, then you won't have any issues - regardless of whether you're entitled to or not.

johnnyskeleton

Sparks wrote:

The explanation I've heard from Gardai goes along the lines of "If I see someone coming up from the riverbank with a rod, a tacklebox, a folding seat and a knife on their belt, then it's a piece of equipment. If I see the same someone going into a nightclub later that night with the same knife on their belt, it's an offensive weapon". So my guess would be that this law was written to let the PTB make it up as they go along

The difference is that it is pretty obvious that someone in fishing gear need the kinfe for the purposes of fishing. By contrast, they no longer need it when they go into the club. So while gardai do have a fairly wide discretion, the law is not made up as they go along, it is clear. Different factual circumstances might amount to legality/illegality but generally it is based on a common sense attitude towards what is a good reason or lawful authority to have it in a public place.

hullaballoo

It seems to me that there is a common sense provision so as not to make the law idiotic. However, this sort of uncertainty can mean that the law is unwieldy.

One of my mates and I were driving through Bray one fine evening a couple of years ago, and we were pulled over by the gardaí. My mate had some of his tools from his job in the back seat (he's a gardener, so it was a hoe, a sheers and some other bits. Even though he was covered in grass stains and grime from work, he was arrested. He wasn't charged in the end, but it was quite unusual, I thought.

He gave the Gardaí a bit of guff, against my placating tones, and I suppose that's why they decided to give him a scare. However, I thought it was a bit strange to start questioning him about possession of gardening tools as offensive weapons when plainly, he was a gardener.

Sparks

I think Hulla's story explains my skepticism of the 1990 Act fairly well JS

johnnyskeleton

Sparks wrote:

I think Hulla's story explains my skepticism of the 1990 Act fairly well JS

The Gardai might have acted contrary to common sense, they might have acted in a manner which makes it look like they are not following the law as it stands, but that does not mean that the law was drafted so that the gardai, or anybody else for that matter, can simply make it up as they go along.

You will get gardai stretching and misusing their powers all the time. This does not mean that they make the law up as they go along, but rather that that particular garda has gone above and beyond. For example, if a garda detains a person under the 1984 act for more than 6 (or should I now say 12) hours, he is not making up the law so that he can detain the person for a longer period, he is simply abusing his position of power.

A situation like Hullabaliú's post can stem from any offence, not just the Firearms and Offensive Weapons legislation.

If anything the story should disuade you from being skeptical of the act: if he had been convicted under it, then you would have good grounds for saying that it is made up as they go along. But if he was released without charge (presumably because the charge would be doomed to failure) does that not show that this garda was merely throwing his (or her) weight around?

Our man in Havana

Would there be any mileage in a false imprisonmet action in the above case?

johnnyskeleton

Bond-007 wrote:

Would there be any mileage in a false imprisonmet action in the above case?

Sure, about as much as there is in any complaint against the gardaí. But I hope this will change dramatically in the next few years.

yayamark

I can see this is going to turn into another Garda Bashing thread.

But back to the OP as said before common sense approach has to be taken by all sides, ie person carrying and the law.

If your carrying a potential weapon on bona fide circumstances, then dont be showing it off in public, keep it concealed until its needed.

Victor

Eh, isn't it a bit like carrying a shotgun while hunting is OK, but carrying one while banking isn't?

seamus

Bond-007 wrote:

Would there be any mileage in a false imprisonmet action in the above case?

Not really, though hulla can confirm. The Garda was acting within their remit. As best I understand it, provided that the Garda was arresting the person with reasonable suspicion/evidence, then a claim of false arrest can't be levied.

hullaballoo

I think it would most likely come down to the admissibility of evidence in court against you that is obtained under these illegal detentions. Unfortunately, there's very little avenue for people to recover against wrongful detention.

scorphonic

Alot has gone on since I last posted!!

I've finally understood the law...dont flash the cash unless your in the woods buying!! I guess it is common sense after all...only carry a knife if you are going out in the "wild" where it is actually required for safety purposes and not into the pub where obviously it will never be required.

griffdaddy

scorphonic wrote:

not into the pub where obviously it will never be required.

What if someone who's bigger than you spills your pint?

civdef

There seems to be some confusion here between English and Irish laws on the subject, English law goes into more detail about what's allowed. I'm not aware of any reference to 4" limits or similar in Irish legislation.

Irish

FIREARMS AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS ACT, 1990
Possession of knives and other articles.

9.—(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3), where a person has with him in any public place any knife or any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed, he shall be guilty of an offence.


(2) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.


(3) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (2), it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to prove that he had the article with him for use at work or for a recreational purpose.


(4) Where a person, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the onus of proving which shall lie on him), has with him in any public place—


( a ) any flick-knife, or


( b ) any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person,


he shall be guilty of an offence.


(5) Where a person has with him in any public place any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise, he shall be guilty of an offence.


(6) In a prosecution for an offence under subsection (5), it shall not be necessary for the prosecution to allege or prove that the intent to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate was intent to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate a particular person; and if, having regard to all the circumstances (including the type of the article alleged to have been intended to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate, the time of the day or night, and the place), the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent in the absence of any adequate explanation by the accused.


( 7 ) ( a ) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.


( b ) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (4) or (5) shall be liable—


(i) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both, or


(ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both.


(8) In this section "public place" includes any highway and any other premises or place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have access, whether on payment or otherwise, and includes any club premises and any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.


(9) In this section "flick-knife" means a knife—


( a ) which has a blade which opens when hand pressure is applied to a button, spring, lever or other device in or attached to the handle, or


( b ) which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and when released is locked in an open position by means of a button, spring, lever or other device.

England & Wales

Criminal Justice Act 1988
Offence of having article with blade or point in public place.

139.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—

(a) for use at work;

(b) for religious reasons; or

(c) as part of any national costume.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(7) In this section "public place" includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.

(8) This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done before it comes into force.