Should the PDs be let back into Government?

Collie D

Meant to attach a poll to this but can't see the option anywhere help appreciated. mods.

Regardless of what Enda Kenny is smoking the last week and a half, we are going to have an FF plus others government. It doesn't look like FF/Labour which would obviously hold a large majority. A large bunch of Independents hold their own problems as Bertie will have to make an awful lot of promises. The PDs and Greens may be the preferred option for Bertie.

This poses a question. When the public have so overwhelmingy rejected the PDs and their policies, is it really a democracy where a party with so little support gets so much power? Harney will more than likely go back to Health - a high profile portfolio but also one that FF will be more than keen to wash their hands of.

is_that_so

I agree that the PDs were roundly rejected as a political entity yet he who must be obeyed would argue that FF are doing what the country asked them to do - providing stable government. That and the fact that now they have done with us for five years or so, they really couldn't care or less what we said.

Het-Field

Simple answer is yes. It is a fair point that with just over 2% of the vote the PDs mandate is questionable, however, the Irish nation has agreed on a PRSTV System. One of the cornerstones of such a systems is that the smaller parties benefit either in terms of seat numbers or involvement in the government. As a nation we must accept this, and agree that if the numbers are there for a FF/PD/Ind majority then that is what we have given a mandate for. Furthermore, the Progressive Democrats didnt stand cnadidates in every constituency, so it is hard to determine weather all constituencies would have rejected the PD Offer. Well it may not be hard, but it would be wrong to make assumptions

Otherwise we should take a first past the post model and vote for one candidate. Fianna Fail are firm advocates on the basis that they would get the majority every time. However, our system offers a window of opportunity to the PD's Sinn Fein, Greens, Labour etc who have no hope of an overall majority

is_that_so

Hence the question I posed a while back about lists, which to me by implication also includes a limit on representation - ie 5%. What we could end up with here is a disproportionate influence by an extremely small group of individuals, as Gregory did in his time. That was fine for him and it guaranteed his seat but considering the amount of dog-wagging we have had over the last decade, hardly democratic.

Zebra3

I despise the PDs (soon to be Liberal Democrats?), but they have the right to be in government.

Anyone could argue that the Greens were rejected by the people too.

Collie D

Zebra3 wrote:

I despise the PDs (soon to be Liberal Democrats?), but they have the right to be in government.

Anyone could argue that the Greens were rejected by the people too.

While not disagreeing with that point, I think that the PDs would polarise people more than the Greens. The Greens probably suffer from voter apathy as they can be seen as a one-issue party and while the majority of people would want better planning regulations and a better environment, there are more importnat issues out there. They are not a party that people would actually say they hate

K-9

The quirks of the PR system seen the Pd's get the same percentage of the vote in 97 and 05 yet they doubled their seats. Also a vote for FF was to some degree, a vote for the last 10 years of FF/PD Govt.

Collie D

Collie D wrote:

While not disagreeing with that point, I think that the PDs would polarise people more than the Greens. The Greens probably suffer from voter apathy as they can be seen as a one-issue party and while the majority of people would want better planning regulations and a better environment, there are more importnat issues out there. They are not a party that people would actually say they hate

I think it was probably McDowell that did the polarising.
He's gone now after lets see shafting the almost likeable Harney (I said almost) and singlehandedly shafting his party and then cutting and running when the going got tough.

I'd like to see Harney back in health tbh as like a lot of the people I've talked to privately in the health service, they think that (a) things couldnt get much worse regardless of who is there and (2) she is the first minister that had the balls to start making changes.
2 years isn't enough to judge the effects of whatever she wanted to do let loose on the monolyth that the health service is.

By the way polls arent allowed on the politics boards,thats why one couldnt be made here.
We found that they inhibit discussion.
We like people to come in here and talk about what they think instead of just voting in a poll.

Húrin

In all likelihood Harney will return to health, and I hope they give Grealish a junior ministry.

Who else is going to take Health, especially given the situation that Harney must finish what she started.

Not because I'm a great fan of the PDs, but because I would rather the power be given to smaller parties than those corrupt FF bastards.

Pride Fighter

No , the PD's should not be back in government. They are on thin ice as it is and they should rebuild their party from opposition. If the go into govt they just might as well be a vassal of FF.

bk

Pride Fighter wrote:

No , the PD's should not be back in government. They are on thin ice as it is and they should rebuild their party from opposition. If the go into govt they just might as well be a vassal of FF.

Almost every political commentator agrees that the only chance of the PD's rebuilding is in government. In government they will get lots of attention and free PR. They would be high profile and if Mary can sort out health, they would likely get lots of praise and could rebuild.

nollaig

Almost every political commentator agrees that the only chance of the PD's rebuilding is in government. In government they will get lots of attention and free PR. They would be high profile and if Mary can sort out health, they would likely get lots of praise and could rebuild.

Totally agree with this, best way for the pd's to get back on track is to sort out the health service in the next 5 years. Id even look at getting all the ousted pd's to aid mary harney, get them travelling to health clinics up & down the country and report back to Harney. If it works, their party will be in better shape than ever.
Cant see how changing their name will work. Progessive Democrats is a very good name anyways.

Breezer

bk wrote:

Almost every political commentator agrees that the only chance of the PD's rebuilding is in government. In government they will get lots of attention and free PR. They would be high profile and if Mary can sort out health, they would likely get lots of praise and could rebuild.

Yes, if. You could say the same about Fine Gael. If they were allowed into government and sorted out health, they would probably win the next election by a landslide and confine Fianna Fáil to the opposition benches for quite some time to come. It doesn't mean that they have a mandate to go into government.

Politics is not a children's board game where the youngest player gets to go first and when it looks like the bigger kids are bullying him, mammy declares everyone to be a winner. The voters rejected the PDs and in an ideal world it would not be the place of other parties to take pity and see that they have a chance to rebuild.

Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world and if FF can use the PDs to get back into government giving as little concessions as possible they will, dragging their Harney- and Grealish-shaped tails behind them.

You could argue that while the PDs were rejected, Harney wasn't. But the fact is she represents a party that was rejected. If you were to start talking about her as an individual, you could just as easily say that Rabbitte has a mandate to be Tánaiste (as it happens, I'd say he has a lot more of a one than Harney) and that Enda and Bertie should both be Taoiseach. It doesn't work like that.

I think that in light of this a minimum percentage vote for participating in government could be looked at. PR is a good system; as pointed out, it prevents Ireland turning into a one-party state. But like any system, it is open to abuse, and we need to close the loopholes. I don't expect it to happen though.

vorbis

i find it bizarre that that there is so much attention on the pds. FF were the dominant party in government for the past 10 years. If you don't like governmental policy surely they are the ones to be upset at!!

The fact is that it doesn't matter as long as the economy is going ok.

Breezer

vorbis wrote:

i find it bizarre that that there is so much attention on the pds. FF were the dominant party in government for the past 10 years. If you don't like governmental policy surely they are the ones to be upset at!!

The fact is that it doesn't matter as long as the economy is going ok.

I think that's exactly the point people are making. Despite having only 8 seats, the PDs had 2 very important ministries, and McDowell was an extremely prominent, polarising figure in the outgoing government. Now, despite being roundly rejected and having only 2 seats, his former party look likely to retain one very important ministry.

And I can't agree with you on the last point. If the economy were all that mattered, why bother having a Cabinet, or indeed a Taoiseach? We'd just elect a Minister for Finance to run the economy and let the country look after itself.

Attractive Nun

Breezer wrote:

I think that in light of this a minimum percentage vote for participating in government could be looked at. PR is a good system; as pointed out, it prevents Ireland turning into a one-party state. But like any system, it is open to abuse, and we need to close the loopholes. I don't expect it to happen though.

The entire point of PR is, essentially, to allow smaller parties have some chance of garnering votes. But now that a party with, heaven forbid, only two seats have appeared, it's just a bit too small? In honesty, I think it's quite obvious the only reason people are getting so upset that the PDs might get into government is not because of the "loophole" in the PR system; it's because you don't like the PDs. Elections aren't about 'rejecting' past governments, they're about choosing future governments. Fianna Fáil+PDs+Inds, or Fianna Fail+Greens, or whoever, represents a majority of seats in the Dáil - what's the problem?

And also...

Collie D wrote:

While not disagreeing with that point, I think that the PDs would polarise people more than the Greens. The Greens probably suffer from voter apathy as they can be seen as a one-issue party and while the majority of people would want better planning regulations and a better environment, there are more importnat issues out there. They are not a party that people would actually say they hate

Whatever people 'think' about the PDs, the reality is that the only reason Fianna Fail seem so keen on having them in government is that they are ideologically quite similar. That's the nature of coalition-forming. You can bet if the Joe Higgins and Clare Daly got elected, Bertie wouldn't be rushing to the socialists to form a government. Likewise, if the PDs had gotten the Green Party's 6 seats they would, in all likelihood, go into government alone with FF. If your problem with the PDs going into government is that they would polarise people, then I think that's quite unfair given that the only reason they might indeed get into government is because they are actually very similar to Fianna Fail, who were overwhemlingly favoured by the Irish electorate. (I'll add, also, that I wouldn't be best pleased if the Greens end up with a few important ministries - the Greens aren't the universally loved nice guys you seem to be painting them as)


I think people are letting their prejudices get to them on this issue. PR is a good system - not perfect - but pretty damn good. If there is a problem we should all be complaining about it's the fact that random independents can pull some wishlist out of their arse every 5 years and heap goodies on their own constituency whilst adding nothing to the country as a whole.

Breezer

Attractive Nun wrote:

The entire point of PR is, essentially, to allow smaller parties have some chance of garnering votes. But now that a party with, heaven forbid, only two seats have appeared, it's just a bit too small? In honesty, I think it's quite obvious the only reason people are getting so upset that the PDs might get into government is not because of the "loophole" in the PR system; it's because you don't like the PDs. Elections aren't about 'rejecting' past governments, they're about choosing future governments. Fianna Fáil+PDs+Inds, or Fianna Fail+Greens, or whoever, represents a majority of seats in the Dáil - what's the problem?

I don't like the PDs. I admit that. But yes, I think 2 seats is a bit too small. The people of Ireland chose a future government, presumably with memories of past governments in mind, and for the vast majority of people, the government they chose did not include the PDs. The PR system is not there to allow smaller parties a chance of garnering votes, it is there because it is deemed to be the system that best reflects the people's wishes. The controversy thrown up over the current situation suggests that the people feel their wishes are not being respected. The system can be adjusted by a referendum, and I feel it would be a good possibility to explore. Realistically, however, I don't see it happening, as politicians from smaller parties will want to protect their own political existence.

Attractive Nun wrote:

If there is a problem we should all be complaining about it's the fact that random independents can pull some wishlist out of their arse every 5 years and heap goodies on their own constituency whilst adding nothing to the country as a whole.

Another problem, but one not so easily fixed by a referendum.

Collie D

Attractive Nun wrote:

Likewise, if the PDs had gotten the Green Party's 6 seats they would, in all likelihood, go into government alone with FF.

That was my point. The PD's didn't get six seats, they got two. If they had six then maybe they'd deserve a ministerial position. I also never said that people love the Greens. I don't really have a on opinion on them either way to be honest. I merely said that you would find it hard to find a lot of Green haters.

We live in a democracy so the fact that people don't like the PDs is important. That was proved in the election. If people don't like a candidate/party they don't vote for them.

Moriarty

Collie D wrote:

Regardless of what Enda Kenny is smoking the last week and a half, we are going to have an FF plus others government. It doesn't look like FF/Labour which would obviously hold a large majority. A large bunch of Independents hold their own problems as Bertie will have to make an awful lot of promises. The PDs and Greens may be the preferred option for Bertie.

I don't agree.

What's the incentive for the Greens to go into government if they don't have the final option of removing support and therefore bringing down the government if they don't get what they want? Without that stick they would have very little leverage with FF. It's the same situation with the PDs although slightly less pronounced as I imagine they are more desperate to get into government with their recent losses.

So can anyone give me a reason why the Greens/PDs would effectively act as guarantor against one another in a FF/Green/PD government?

irish_bob

the people didnt reject pd policys because pd policys are more or less in line with fianna fail policys and in line with a huge section of the poplulation whether we care to admit it or not

the pd,s because they are too young to have tradition and in ireland most people vote for whoever thier grandad voted for were never going to have many seats no matter what thier policys were but the pd,s were decimated for the sole reason that thier leader was a pr disaster who the public hated in general and as a result the whole party was wiped out for no good reason whatsoever

as regards the questions should they be allowed back into goverment , who could stop them if that is the taoiseachs wish , its not like theye been found guilty of smuggline arms to the taliban or something

Andystoran

Country Rejected PD's. The country voted green assuming they wouldnt go in with FF.
Mary Harney is the best person for health. Im delighted shel have another chance to get rid of the parasites in the health service!!
Greedy consultants have to be pushed out. 205K is enough. Take it or F*** O**!