anted away

bell_boy

I played in a tourney this weekend where an unusual thing happened. Two and a half hours into the tournament, just when the antes were to kick in, the tournament director announced the structure of the tournament was changing and there would be no antes at any level. The reason given was that there weren’t enough chips in play, but at the time (average stack)/ (BB+SB+9*ante) was going to be approximately 25 and without the antes kicking in this brought (average stack)/(BB+SB) to around 30.

So I have a couple of questions:

1) Under what conditions should the structure of a tournament be changed while it’s running? (e.g. freezing blinds at the very end of a tourney often seems reasonable to me)

2) Should there be some relief when this occurs? I asked for my entry back at the time the change was announced since adding time to an already deep tourney that was to pay only 5 places didn’t seem like good value to me even though I was running well. (I wasn't surprised when I didn’t get it since everyone would have to have the same option and the shorter stacks could simply leave the tourney.)

3) Was I just being a nit? Maybe, but even so, I’d appreciate opinions on the question below….

4) More generally, is there something special about antes that are central to a good tournament structure? Why not just have increasing blinds? My guess is that in addition to putting more uniform pressure on the small stacks, they create more action on the table but I can’t put my finger on why. Maybe more stealing?

I haven't played many tournaments at this club, so maybe this is commonplace. The change in structure was frustrating, but on the up side I did get to play with some good players whom I haven't played with before.

RoundTower

I think in a well run card tournament, the structure should never be changed once the tournament has started (including freezing the blinds later on). If it's unexpected, it's a sign that something has gone wrong with the organising of it. If it's preplanned (this used to happen in the Fitz and probably still does) it's a bit unfair to non regulars who think it is "antes up every 25 minutes" when it's actually "antes up every 25 minutes until 3000/6000, then depending on who asks we might freeze them. It's pretty unprofessional IMO. Doing it when all the players agree is just about acceptable for me.

I wouldn't ever expect to get a refund in this case (a refund from the prizepool would be even more unprofessional, and the club doesn't want to pay out of its own pocket). All you can do is make it clear to whoever's in charge that you're unhappy.

I don't think you are being a nit to object to this. Changing the format helps some players and therefore by definition it hurts others.

Antes encourage looser play from everyone except the blinds. The blinds have (proportionally) less invested in the pot, and so should be less inclined to call a raise. This means other players should steal them more often, so everyone's range gets wider.

Jools Poker

yeah I think it's pretty annoying when changes are made to the structure of a tournament...I don't mind so much a tournament organiser having the option to amend blind levels in a common sense way in order to maintain the playability of the game.. (i appreciate this may mean something has gone wrong RT e.g only 60 turn up when 150 were expected and the 45 mins clock originally intended may now in fact slow down the game beyond what anyone would have wanted) ..but of course this has to make sense for the game ...situations such as a 4/5 handed FT which risks turning into a total crapshoot in what had theretofore been a decent game is one such situation...but in this situation (and at the business-end moneywise) I think it should be agreeable to all the players involved. The kinda thing I really despise is arriving to a game which had been advertised with a 35 min clock only to find it's now 30 min...small difference i know but in that case imo it's a barely veiled attempt to speed up the game and just get it over with that bit faster...and of course once you've arrived you're unlikely to leave over 5 mins....amendments are ok but only if they're made with the intention of improving the game in progress...:)

Mellor

I agree along the same lines as above. The tourney should be as avertised, always. And should never change. This includes skipping levels, speeding up levels. And or addition or removal of an element.
Some small changes should be allowed, once agreed on by ALL players, such as clock freezing at FT, or a change to the payout. I also think that the TD should have zero in those matters. Obviously he can refuse to freeze clock, but he should suggest any change be made, or be in favour of a change, its up to the players.

BIG-SLICK-POKER

I have changed Stuctures to suit players in the past to a response of a round of applause .. I think that if u set out a structure to suit 200 players and u only get 100 you have to make sure that the structure still suits the players ... I have often Frozen blinds and wil do in the future to make sure there is still playability .. For instance in the €250 side event i made sure that this did not become the usual side event as other games such as the Irish Open where the only focus was the main event when all events should be Equal in status regardless .. We doubled a level and Increased the Clock to 40 mins when the average stack was looking like it was coming close to 10 Big Blinds

At no stage will i change the structure to speed up the game ..

Neill K

strewelpeter

bell_boy wrote:

I played in a tourney this weekend where an unusual thing happened...

Was this the SE Deepstack last night?

bell_boy

strewelpeter wrote:

Was this the SE Deepstack last night?

yes

strewelpeter

I thought Alex did the right thing in the circumstance of having, because of the weekend that was in it, less than half the normal number of runners. I think with antes it would have ended quite a bit earlier.
I didn't notice anyone disagreeing with the change when it was announced.
Mind you it suited me giving me plenty more chances to use the few chips I had left after Vera's JJ stomped all over my AA, delaying my inevitable exit until the FT bubble :rolleyes:

RoundTower

strewelpeter wrote:

I thought Alex did the right thing in the circumstance of having, because of the weekend that was in it, less than half the normal number of runners. I think with antes it would have ended quite a bit earlier.
I didn't notice anyone disagreeing with the change when it was announced.
Mind you it suited me giving me plenty more chances to use the few chips I had left after Vera's JJ stomped all over my AA, delaying my inevitable exit until the FT bubble :rolleyes:

I don't see how this can be the "right thing to do". If there are less than half the expected field you know that when the tourney starts. Announce the change then, it is unfair to the players to spring the surprise on them right as the antes are going to kick in. Also this allows you to offer refunds if players are unhappy.

Same to you Neill, your tournaments seem to be pretty well organised and you should have a good idea how long they will go on, if you need to change the structure you should be able to do it before a hand is dealt.

bell_boy

strewelpeter wrote:

I think with antes it would have ended quite a bit earlier.
:

I don't think I had played this tourny before, so I don't know what the final table dynamics are typically in terms of mix of stack sizes, but it would seem that a ratio of average stack to blinds+antes of around 25 with 20 players or so was still plenty of play.

I'm not sure what the right balance for a sucessful tournament is. I guess time is a factor, certainly ending too late can be a real problem. But is ending at 2am instead of 3:30am such a problem? I woudl agree with RoundTower's explantion of the impact of antes, and would think they're a good thing for the last two tables. I wouldn't see any problem with tournament time just like payouts scaling with number of runners.

strewelpeter wrote:

I didn't notice anyone disagreeing with the change when it was announced.
:

Not wanting to make a scene if this was standard practice at SE, I spoke to Alex personally after he announced that the antes wouldn't be skipped for just one level, but they were being removed altogether. And honestly, it was not my intent to debate the soundness of Alex's particular decision since his say was final and he was doing what he thought was best. I just wanted to see if there were some principles at play in running tournments that I didn't appreciate as I usually play cash games.

Cheers.

BuChan

it was strange that they didn't have antes in play and it changed the game signifigantly, but i dont think it was at all bad for the players. hanging on with 10/15 bb was not too difficult to do with a 40 min clock and no ante, you could pick spots more comfortably. this suited me as i was stuck at this amount for quite a while and it was refreshing not have to push allin with rubbish everytime it was folded to me in late position/blinds whatever. late stage blind stealing is a big part of amassing chips in deep stack tournaments but it doesn't ruin the game to take them out, actually i think we were seeing more flops as a result. i don't know i might just be defending the tourny because i got a much needed little touch out of it

BIG-SLICK-POKER

RoundTower wrote:

I don't see how this can be the "right thing to do". If there are less than half the expected field you know that when the tourney starts. Announce the change then, it is unfair to the players to spring the surprise on them right as the antes are going to kick in. Also this allows you to offer refunds if players are unhappy.

Same to you Neill, your tournaments seem to be pretty well organised and you should have a good idea how long they will go on, if you need to change the structure you should be able to do it before a hand is dealt.

i agree with u there bud , U should know before the tournament and thats when i make the desicion... some people argue that antes are actually there to slow up a game not speed it up

My opinion is that players put in antes or blinds, which are generally small amounts of money that serve the purpose of creating “action” in every round of play. Without a commitment of money every round, a game could potentially drag on and on, as players fold lousy cards, waiting for a strong hand. The antes and blinds install a definite time limit for players, ensuring that if they just sit and do nothing, they will eventually ante their way out money. In other words, the only way to continue to play, and potentially win, is to bet.

Business works exactly the same way. Every single day a business is in operation, it is forced to ante up expenses consisting of things like rent, electricity, payroll, etc. These expenses don’t go away and remain a constant. Since maintaining these expenses requires income, a business that doesn’t take action to bring in money will eventually be killed by the daily antes. In poker, players win by betting. In business, companies win by their advertising and marketing.

Jam-Fly

Editing the size of the blinds/antes, changing the length of levels and guarenteed prize pools should NEVER be changed in the middle of an event imo.

Changing blind lengths to give more play is, (although I would sometimes like it), also not right. Some players are better at playing short stacked than deep stacked. It is unfair to these people to give more play.

Btw, with regards to the guarenteed prize pools, if a casino/club/tournament guarentee a certain prize pool, surely they are legally obligated to give that prize pool. A few tournaments I have played had a "guarenteed" prize pool, when really it was a "We estimate that this will be the prize pool but if we don't get the amount of players we need we'll just pay out the prizes we normally would" prize pool

DeVore

Antes are horrifically misused here (Ireland) as well as other places... they were devised to soften the blind-stealing when the blinds got large but are now seemingly used to make the structures sneakily MORE crapshooty then less.

No tournament should be altered in running imho. Even changing around the IO this year felt wrong, but with such a field I can understand it.

Anyone remember the Merrion changing a freezeout to a rebuy in-running

DeV.

DeVore

Jam-Fly wrote:

Editing the size of the blinds/antes, changing the length of levels and guarenteed prize pools should NEVER be changed in the middle of an event imo.

Changing blind lengths to give more play is, (although I would sometimes like it), also not right. Some players are better at playing short stacked than deep stacked. It is unfair to these people to give more play.

Btw, with regards to the guarenteed prize pools, if a casino/club/tournament guarentee a certain prize pool, surely they are legally obligated to give that prize pool. A few tournaments I have played had a "guarenteed" prize pool, when really it was a "We estimate that this will be the prize pool but if we don't get the amount of players we need we'll just pay out the prizes we normally would" prize pool

Welcome to 2005 in Irish Poker.....

DeV.

Goodluck2me

DeVore wrote:

Antes are horrifically misused here (Ireland) as well as other places... they were devised to soften the blind-stealing when the blinds got large but are now seemingly used to make the structures sneakily MORE crapshooty then less..

how can they be used to soften the blind stealing? surely they create more action?

Neill from Big Slick Poker wrote:

My opinion is that players put in antes or blinds, which are generally small amounts of money that serve the purpose of creating “action” in every round of play. Without a commitment of money every round, a game could potentially drag on and on, as players fold lousy cards, waiting for a strong hand. The antes and blinds install a definite time limit for players, ensuring that if they just sit and do nothing, they will eventually ante their way out money. In other words, the only way to continue to play, and potentially win, is to bet.

Business works exactly the same way. Every single day a business is in operation, it is forced to ante up expenses consisting of things like rent, electricity, payroll, etc. These expenses don’t go away and remain a constant. Since maintaining these expenses requires income, a business that doesn’t take action to bring in money will eventually be killed by the daily antes. In poker, players win by betting. In business, companies win by their advertising and marketing.

theres no way this wasnt copied and pasted from a some web page. its far too trite.

phantom_lord

http://www.freshlysqueezeddesign.com/pulp/archives/38