Israeli sniper rifle in Iraq

silverharp

http://judicial-inc.biz/Israeli_sniper_8_Hi_quality.WMV

it's a pretty chilling video of insurgents sniper attacks on US soldiers. The ironic thing supposedly is that the sniper rifle is made by Rafael an Israeli company.

Maskhadov

sick video

Manic Moran

Not a particularly good shot, is he?

NTM

SpitfireIV

Yeah, I agree, pretty sick video, I only got a couple of seconds into it!! :mad:

Captain Chaos

The gun you see at the start of that vid is not a sniper rifle. It is Israeli, its a device called ''Corner shot''. It is a a device that hold a small calliber handgun. In this case a Glock 17 9mm hand gun, made in Austria. An American EoTech 552 holo sight is mounted to it and a camera video feed. It can bend on a swivel in the middle and allow the shooter to take shots around corners.

The weapon used in the vid was not as shown at the start of the vid as standard US body armor can stop 9mm rounds no problem.

Its some sort of 7.62x39mm rifle most likely that used to take the shots.

DublinWriter

It looks like a compilation of the various 'Juba the Sniper' vids.

It's rumoured that the original 'Juba' was shot by US soliders, others take on the name.

I've seen a lot of those vids before and a few things struct me. Firstly, what easy targets the US soliders seemed to make themselves. Compare and contract with how the British Army used to patrol the streets in N.I. They would never stand around street corners like that or have their heads poking up out of the top of stationary Sarson armoured vehicles.

Secondly, the sniper seems to be fairly low down, but not in a prone position. The compiler of those vids chopped off a lot of the end parts of the vid. In the ones I've seen, the point of view slowly moves away sideways, as if the sniper is concealed in the underneath section of a vehical, just like the Washington Sniper.

Manic Moran

Captain Chaos wrote:

Its some sort of 7.62x39mm rifle most likely that used to take the shots.

US body armour can stop 7.62x39 no problem as well. Chap in my unit took six rounds, all stopped. It's rated for NATO 7.62x51. The second engagement seems to show a square hit on the armour, the troop takes the knock, then starts running forward. The famous Tschiderer video shows the armour taking a knock from a 7.62x54R round.

NTM

Clare gunner

FMJ rounds or Black Tip AP rounds.Thought the vest was not much against AP?

Had a poke around on Juba.There is a vid of him preparing to go out on one of the AQ sites.The rifle he uses/used is nothing more than a heavily modded AK.No buttstock,it has a new fwd trigger control from the Mag.With what looked like a variable power scope mounted on it around the gasblock.Basically a homemade bullpup.Seems to be a close in worker as well,as that design suggests a bag,or large coat to hide the gun quickly.The Holosight is intresting,could be a pick up from a dropped M16 or even one purchased by a symapthiser in the US.

Flying

MK IV armour can stop 7.62mm not sure about AP tho.

It seems more headshots or neck shots.

They are Juba Clips and to be honest any idiot with a scope could do the same as they are no more than 200 metres from a target,unlike real snipers that would engage up to 2000 metres from a target

Steyr

Just some very clever editing methinks.

the_syco

DublinWriter wrote:

Firstly, what easy targets the US soliders seemed to make themselves. Compare and contract with how the British Army used to patrol the streets in N.I. They would never stand around street corners like that or have their heads poking up out of the top of stationary Sarson armoured vehicles.

The Black and Tans, RUC, British Army, etc, have more of a history of dealing with urban guerilla warfare. The Americans have had a few wars, but nothing like the Troubles. How long after the shootings of the IRA, did the British Army change its tactics, etc?

Also, a difference between the Troubles and Iraq: in the Troubles, it was the British versus the IRA and their sympathizers. In Iraq, the US are trying to be "friendly" to the Iraqi's, more of a friend than an enemy, and thus the tactics of NI may not work so well in Iraq because of this.

Manic Moran

Part of the problem is we have to give the impression "It's safe, we're here. Don't worry, you can go about your business"

How reassuring would it be if the soldiers in question kept taking prone positions behind lamp posts or whatever every time they stopped, or otherwise looking like they were in fear of their life at all times? How approachable would they be if you wanted to talk with them?

We've had the Brits come over and teach us a few things they learned in Northern Ireland and other places. Taking cover at all times is just one we've discounted as since it's not Northern Ireland, not everything that is applicable there is applicable in Iraq.

NTM

Zambia

Manic Moran wrote:

Part of the problem is we have to give the impression "It's safe, we're here. Don't worry, you can go about your business"

How reassuring would it be if the soldiers in question kept taking prone positions behind lamp posts or whatever every time they stopped, or otherwise looking like they were in fear of their life at all times? How approachable would they be if you wanted to talk with them?

NTM

I get you there Manic but in most cases in N.Ireland (Pre-Ceasefire) people knew the soldiers where targets and tended to just walk around them or ignore them.

I have to agree I think there is an element of editing in this video but I reckon there is a two man team like the US use but one is the Camera man. A lot of this would be true...

rkeane

That vid is just a cutting of JUBA 2...nothing new. Most of the fighters in Iraq formed part of Saddam's elite Fedayeen...they mostly joined the Islamic Army in Iraq. They are absolutely fantastic snipers, I must have seen hundreds of hours of their videos. Combined with EFPS the insurgency in Iraq are slaughtering US forces...unfortunately they have to pay for the reckless actions of Bush & Co.

Flying

rkeane wrote:

That vid is just a cutting of JUBA 2...nothing new. Most of the fighters in Iraq formed part of Saddam's elite Fedayeen...they mostly joined the Islamic Army in Iraq. They are absolutely fantastic snipers, I must have seen hundreds of hours of their videos. Combined with EFPS the insurgency in Iraq are slaughtering US forces...unfortunately they have to pay for the reckless actions of Bush & Co.

Again they are NOT snipers, they engage the target at short ranges.

They have a few days training if any on how to use a weapon, as for the Fedayeen being Elite in what sense as they are no more than murderous thugs who kill women and children aswell as everyone else for their Jollies.

I dont think there is a single Arab army that is anyway professional apart from the old SAF

Clare gunner

Fantastic snipers??....Hmmm Think the USMC in Iraq would beg to differ.
THEY hold the record for the longest shot in Iraq in the counter sniper role.About two years ago a Gunny Sgt,took out a in Iraqi sniper who was using a hospital for cover at over oneand a half mile with a std 308 bolt action sniper rifle.
when one of these "fantastic snipers" manage a one shot one kill from that distance,call back.Even the Viet Cong had better snipers than the AQ/Iraqi,mercenary/religious nutter groups that are in Iraq.

Zambia

Clare gunner wrote:

Fantastic snipers??....Hmmm Think the USMC in Iraq would beg to differ.
when one of these "fantastic snipers" manage a one shot one kill from that distance,call back.Even the Viet Cong had better snipers than the AQ/Iraqi,mercenary/religious nutter groups that are in Iraq.

Hmm while it is a fact these engagement are at closer quarters they do run a high level of risk of capture.

As far as i can ascertain a "sniper" as the resistance uses them is a kill from a concealed position avoiding a full on engagement. Police snipers are used from similar distances if not closer. The resistance need to get the videos of such kills so that is where there piority is. The videos are sent out to inspire more insurgents. Plus it can be adeterent to US graduates to the military...

So while the kill may not be from a huge distance it is actually forfilling their paticular needs. I doubt the poor sod at the recieving end cares wether he was hit from 1000 metres or 100 metres.

The USMC have a lot more training and resources than your average insurgent who probably is most trained hands on.

Manic Moran

In fairness to them, the Iraqi snipers aren't too bad.

It's like the difference between someone who's a crack shot, and someone who's a SWAT team member. Marksmanship is only part of the equation, the tricky bit about sniping is getting to your target, engaging, and disengaging, all without being seen. These guys are half-decent at this bit, though in urban areas it's far easier than in the fields.

Now, it wouldn't hurt (from their perspective) if they actually were decent shots or not. It seems most of the guys in thise clip just aim centre mass, as opposed to weak points, and even then, often doesn't hit the target. By way of personal experience, I was shot at by a sniper at least once, he missed. Not by much, mind, about four inches, but a miss nonetheless. One of my TCs had a shot taken at him (at least once), admittedly from a good distance (about 400m), but that missed by about two feet. It's possible that we were sniped at on other occasions, but never saw the impact or heard the shot.

THEY hold the record for the longest shot in Iraq in the counter sniper role.About two years ago a Gunny Sgt,took out a in Iraqi sniper who was using a hospital for cover at over oneand a half mile with a std 308 bolt action sniper rifle.

Tell them to talk to the Canadians... :P

I dont think there is a single Arab army that is anyway professional apart from the old SAF

Jordanians aren't supposed to be too shabby. Israelis always found them to be more worthy of respect than the rest of the opposition.

I must have seen hundreds of hours of their videos

And you're still sane? Tell me you at least had the sense to turn down the volume, that chanting gets to me after about two minutes.

NTM

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Zambia232]Hmm while it is a fact these engagement are at closer quarters they do run a high level of risk of capture.

Well, you ARE going to run some sort of risk being a soilder or sniper,terrorist or orherwise.I would assume the risk of death would be higher.

The videos are sent out to inspire more insurgents. Plus it can be a deterent to US graduates to the military...

As PIRA Bomb videos were to the British army recruits?Or the traditional greeting card /death message from the IRA to the RUC graduation classes???:rolleyes:

So while the kill may not be from a huge distance it is actually forfilling their paticular needs. I doubt the poor sod at the recieving end cares wether he was hit from 1000 metres or 100 metres.

Actually,yes,as it is more likely that if the fellow is at 100 meters,there is a better chance of the sniper being done by the sniped mates than if he is at 1000meters.

The USMC have a lot more training and resources than your average insurgent who probably is most trained hands on.

And???The tactics of stalking,concealment,shot placement,recon ,etc stay the same.Didnt you say they were all trained by Saddos army in sniping techniques ??

Zambia

Manic Moran wrote:

Marksmanship is only part of the equation, the tricky bit about sniping is getting to your target, engaging, and disengaging, all without being seen. These guys are half-decent at this bit, though in urban areas it's far easier than in the fields.

I agree

Manic Moran wrote:

Now, it wouldn't hurt (from their perspective) if they actually were decent shots or not. It seems most of the guys in thise clip just aim centre mass, as opposed to weak points, and even then, often doesn't hit the target.

And you're still sane? Tell me you at least had the sense to turn down the volume, that chanting gets to me after about two minutes.

Glad to see your still with us

Have to agree here from a lot of the footage the trooper walks away from the event due to his body armour.

Oh and boy does the chanting do your head in...

But it must be very suspicous to be caught in Iraq with a Hand held camera ....

Manic Moran

Zambia232 wrote:

But it must be very suspicous to be caught in Iraq with a Hand held camera ....

It is. As they mentioned when I arrived up North, "There are no tourists in Mosul. If you see someone with a camera, ask questions as to why"

Indeed, being seen taking photographs is a guarantee that you're going to be asked questions by US troops, if they can catch you.

NTM

Zambia

Clare gunner wrote:

Well, you ARE going to run some sort of risk being a soilder or sniper,terrorist or orherwise.I would assume the risk of death would be higher.

With respect I dont see your piont. Are you saying once you become a soldier you should just go about your business with no regard for your safety as well you became a soldier

Clare gunner wrote:

As PIRA Bomb videos were to the British army recruits?Or the traditional greeting card /death message from the IRA to the RUC graduation classes???:rolleyes:

I dont think to the level of exposure was the same, but yes something like that. Why the question marks? My piont was its more to stop people going to join the army not graduate from it.

Clare gunner wrote:

Actually,yes,as it is more likely that if the fellow is at 100 meters,there is a better chance of the sniper being done by the sniped mates than if he is at 1000meters.

Actually no the dead dont care , are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it.

Clare gunner wrote:

And???The tactics of stalking,concealment,shot placement,recon ,etc stay the same.Didnt you say they were all trained by Saddos army in sniping techniques ??

No I didnt someone else did, but even if they where they would have had nowhere near that level of training in Saddams army. So the natural assumption is the more trained in firearms you are the better a shot you will be.

newby.204

Flying wrote:

Again they are NOT snipers, they engage the target at short ranges.

They have a few days training if any on how to use a weapon, as for the Fedayeen being Elite in what sense as they are no more than murderous thugs who kill women and children aswell as everyone else for their Jollies.

I dont think there is a single Arab army that is anyway professional apart from the old SAF

You cannot apply the wests classicly trained definition of the sniper to the "sniping" done in the videos. Just because in western armies we require our sniper teams to be able to do more than engage a target, such as recon etc, doesnt mean they do, there not in the armie the are terrorists/rebels or cough insurgents cough or whatever flashy label the US media is tagging them with these days!! And no i dont support the insurgents before one of you get on my back, im just pointing out that they are not members of the military, and for people with such bad training are they not still achieving their goal??

Manic Moran

newby.204 wrote:

And no i dont support the insurgents before one of you get on my back, im just pointing out that they are not members of the military, and for people with such bad training are they not still achieving their goal??

Honestly? No. Or else, their goal is irrelevant.

The primary strength of a sniper is the ability to either eliminate high-value targets, or to cause fear in your enemy, particularly to the extent of affecting operations. As a sniper in my unit told me, he can do his job by simply shooting a cup out of a guy's hand. If you just want to kill troops, bombs seem to be a higher-return/lower-risk option. Our Jubae are shooting at whatever they can get at; low-ranking troops, and they certainly aren't having much of an effect on moral or operations.

About the only thing they're having an effect on is the propoganda war -outside- of the US military, primarily on other possible Jihadists.

NTM

Clare gunner

Zambia232 wrote:

With respect I dont see your piont. Are you saying once you become a soldier you should just go about your business with no regard for your safety as well you became a soldier

Point is;you can recive the best training etc,have the best medical back up etc.But you are voluentering for a very hazadous job in which you can be killed.It is down to you to survive using your taininig .You are assumed to be somwhat of an adult and to know the risks you signed up for.Your primary function in an army is to KILL.Not get a comfy niche and get paid for it.Nice if you can,but somone has to be up front.

I dont think to the level of exposure was the same, but yes something like that. Why the question marks? My piont was its more to stop people going to join the army not graduate from it.

Er pretty much so,my boss who was former RUC,described the training days and the monthly progress cards from the IRA to the class,even naming individuals,and what they would do to their famillies or them if caught.Plus the statement by the cheif that up to graduation day anyone could quit.No one did.So if a terrorist organisation who can name names and details,doesnt phase certain people...Why do you think a video shown to people from a different culture will phaze US soilders??more likely get them to join up and get a chance to shoot one of them "rag heads".

Actually no the dead dont care , are you just disagreeing with me for the sake of it.

No I'm not.and the living care alot more!It is easier to locate someone taking potshots at you from 50/100 meters than one at 800/1000meters.After all you could be the next uncaring dead person.

No I didnt someone else did, but even if they where they would have had nowhere near that level of training in Saddams army.

The Iraqui sniper course was based on Russian/Warsaw pact tactics and equipment.While based on a different doctrine,the Iraquis had acess to as much info,equipment and tactics of the West as was possible up to and past Gulf War 1.They read the same litature,manuals[albiet maybe dated] as our lot would,and would be well aware of their equipment limitations.Any Iraqui sniper with army training would be able to reach out 700 meters with his Dragunov rifle.Still very respectable.Those videos are nowhere near 700 or lower.So it is wrong to call them snipers,marksmen maybe,not snipers.

Clare gunner

If you just want to kill troops, bombs seem to be a higher-return/lower-risk option.

Lower risk maybe.But not as accurate and cheap.To train and equip a sniper is what $500,000?What does a cruise missile and a B1B cost??
Plus your sniper is about the smartest killing machine on the field.He is going to discern between friendlies and hostiles.A bomb cant do that in the last seconds of flight.

Zambia

Clare gunner wrote:

Er pretty much so,my boss who was former RUC,described the training days and the monthly progress cards from the IRA to the class,even naming individuals,and what they would do to their famillies or them if caught.Plus the statement by the cheif that up to graduation day anyone could quit.No one did.So if a terrorist organisation who can name names and details,doesnt phase certain people...Why do you think a video shown to people from a different culture will phaze US soilders??more likely get them to join up and get a chance to shoot one of them "rag heads".

Yes but they where already in the system you will never know how many people did not join for fear of their familes etc. Those are the people who you get with this stuff.

Clare gunner wrote:

No I'm not.and the living care alot more!It is easier to locate someone taking potshots at you from 50/100 meters than one at 800/1000meters.After all you could be the next uncaring dead person.

Yes i agree the location of the sniper is a concern for the living, however the dead squaddie doesnt care.

Clare gunner wrote:

The Iraqui sniper course was based on Russian/Warsaw pact tactics and equipment.While based on a different doctrine,the Iraquis had acess to as much info,equipment and tactics of the West as was possible up to and past Gulf War 1.They read the same litature,manuals[albiet maybe dated] as our lot would,and would be well aware of their equipment limitations.Any Iraqui sniper with army training would be able to reach out 700 meters with his Dragunov rifle.Still very respectable.Those videos are nowhere near 700 or lower.So it is wrong to call them snipers,marksmen maybe,not snipers.

Yes I would agree as well but i dont believe these snipers are ex-iraqi army in total some may be , i think they are mostly bog standard insurgents. I would still call them snipers due to their firing once and escaping or from a concealed position. Some of them are actually bad snipers as they hit centre mass even when the target is in body armour.

I would also agree that bombs are a much better insurgents weapon

Manic Moran

Clare gunner wrote:

Lower risk maybe.But not as accurate and cheap.To train and equip a sniper is what $500,000?What does a cruise missile and a B1B cost??
Plus your sniper is about the smartest killing machine on the field.He is going to discern between friendlies and hostiles.A bomb cant do that in the last seconds of flight.

I meant bomb as in roadside bomb/land mine. Get an artillery shell, detonating mechanism. Not that expensive.

Yes i agree the location of the sniper is a concern for the living, however the dead squaddie doesnt care.

Wounded squaddie might, which is what most of the sniper shots result in.

NTM

Zambia

Manic Moran wrote:

Wounded squaddie might, which is what most of the sniper shots result in.
NTM

True a wounded squaddie might.

newby.204

Manic Moran wrote:

Honestly? No. Or else, their goal is irrelevant.

The primary strength of a sniper is the ability to either eliminate high-value targets, or to cause fear in your enemy, particularly to the extent of affecting operations. As a sniper in my unit told me, he can do his job by simply shooting a cup out of a guy's hand. If you just want to kill troops, bombs seem to be a higher-return/lower-risk option. Our Jubae are shooting at whatever they can get at; low-ranking troops, and they certainly aren't having much of an effect on moral or operations.

About the only thing they're having an effect on is the propoganda war -outside- of the US military, primarily on other possible Jihadists.


NTM

REF; Emboldened text

MM, understandably being in a western army you are applying western logic, this is not their goal, their goal is the propangda war thats exactly what their goal is!! Videos like that give them more jihadists etc! And the american people from what im seeing in the news aint too happy with their low ranking sons and daughters getting a return trip in a body bag??