The river of life

fuzzbox

1/2 6-max

Dont know villain, I've been here an orbit or two, but havent had anything worthwhile. I havent attacked villains BB when folded to in the SB thus far (I've had an opportunity or two).

I have 200, villain has 800.

Preflop
Folded to me on the sb, and I make it 8 to play with 9sTs, villain calls in BB.

Flop (16)
Ks Qs 3h
I bet 15, villain calls

Turn (46)
6h
I bet 40, villain calls

River (126)
3s
I have circa 135 left to bet.
Bet or check?
If you bet, how much?

valor

i just shove

sikes

There are two 3s.

cooker3

I bet about 70

Edit: As been pointed out, two 3s!

fuzzbox

cooker3 wrote:

I bet about 70

Edit: As been pointed out, two 3s!

Do you call a push?

Gus Ivey

sikes wrote:

There are two 3s.

most would raise the flop or turn with 2 pair or trips, you cant really put him on a house.

He Probobly has KJ or something similar - As said i would bet about 70

sikes

Gus Ivey wrote:

most would raise the flop or turn with 2 pair or trips, you cant really put him on a house.

He Probobly has KJ or something similar - As said i would bet about 70

there are 2 3 of spades in the hand.

mdwexford

nobody like a check here?

if he calls a shove we are probably behind

cooker3

fuzzbox wrote:

Do you call a push?

Of course.
I bet that amount as I think someone with a King can call the 80 but not call a push and while the relative differance is small, people tend to react differantly to all ins.

sikes

I check, though I would doubt I could fold to any bet, I would convince myself I induced a bluff with AsKx,AsQx or something.

Your flush is far too weak to extra value from other flushes and he is never folding a stronger flush though might fold a weaker one. I would think KK, QQ are unlikely, you would prob have met a raise by now even if they didnt 3bet pre so I doubt you are looking at a house.

I check, and you should probably fold to a bet. A randomer isnt calling with a lone K to make up the times we get looked up with a better flush or a house.

eggie

i check shove,or check call an all in here

fuzzbox

sikes wrote:

I check, and you should probably fold to a bet. A randomer isnt calling with a lone K to make up the times we get looked up with a better flush or a house.

You really think I should check/fold ?
I mean ... really?

sikes

fuzzbox wrote:

You really think I should check/fold ?
I mean ... really?

Well its certainly not a clear call. I would say its very close if he bets near pot

fuzzbox

sikes wrote:

Well its certainly not a clear call. I would say its very close if he bets near pot

So I check because he wont call with a worse hand, but I fold because he wont bet with a worse hand?

Who is this poker master villain?

sikes

fuzzbox wrote:

So I check because he wont call with a worse hand, but I fold because he wont bet with a worse hand?

Who is this poker master villain?

Obviously he is going to look us up sometimes with a call, but I dont think its making up for the times he has a flush or a house.

Its a really awkward spot, I will throw a few calcs together in an hour or so and see what comes up but my gut is whats above.

eggie

u wont get many better boards for your hand, at least by CRAI or check calling u will induce a bluff from a worse hand. Get it in, this is what u wanted.

Ardent

I value bet it, about 40 again. If he shoves, I have to seriously consider a stronger flush or (unlikely) a full house and consider folding.

sikes

There is probably value in betting 60 or so, but I wouldnt call a shove, even though we are getting 4/1. I really dont like shoving at all.

I could be far too tight here.

hotspur

People are checking this? He has a lousy king most of the time, he's gonna call a bet if he does, if checked to he probably isn't gonna bet it the majority of the time. I'm betting 80 there usually, but have no problem with a push. If I went bluff, bluff, check when I got there, I'd shoot myself. And you have to call a reraise too obviously as you are ahead more than 1 in 7 times to AA, AK, KQ, smaller flushes, retard suicide bluff with JT. Usually there ain't a monster in the closet

MrPillowTalk

Are you going to vegas fuzz?

Hectorjelly

sikes wrote:

I check, though I would doubt I could fold to any bet, I would convince myself I induced a bluff with AsKx,AsQx or something.

Your flush is far too weak to extra value from other flushes and he is never folding a stronger flush though might fold a weaker one. I would think KK, QQ are unlikely, you would prob have met a raise by now even if they didnt 3bet pre so I doubt you are looking at a house.

I check, and you should probably fold to a bet. A randomer isnt calling with a lone K to make up the times we get looked up with a better flush or a house.

I think this is far far too cautious, there are two higher flushes available, and plenty of lower ones.

BigCityBanker

I bet and go broke here in a blind on blind battle.

Villians line is very passive and I think its obvious that he is drawing. To what is he drawing though? AXs is an obvious draw but then again is 10J that didnt get there.

Good post.

a-k-47

your playing the hand out to hit the flush, pot it. lose you lose. You still played it well. Outcome?

a-k-47

Ardent wrote:

I value bet it, about 40 again. If he shoves, I have to seriously consider a stronger flush or (unlikely) a full house and consider folding.

how can you consider folding to a push with 50% of your stack invested.

(reload)

fuzzbox

MrPillowTalk wrote:

Are you going to vegas fuzz?

Nope, the presence of two little monsters will restrict my worldly movements once again.

fuzzbox

Results:
Well I dont know why people want to fold this hand at any point, the real question was - do I get more value from checking to induce bluffs, by pushing, or by betting small to maybe induce a bluff-raise.

In the actual hand, I shoved and villain folded.

pok3rplaya

I just bet 1/2 pot but because thats what I do in these situations. I've no facts on best expectations for the varius lines. I don't like checking though.

sikes

I have a major case of MUTBS.

fuzzbox

pok3rplaya wrote:

I just bet 1/2 pot but because thats what I do in these situations. I've no facts on best expectations for the varius lines. I don't like checking though.

I like 1/2 pot bet the least.
If I am going to make a reasonable bet, then I like a shove.

Samba

without more info on the villain there is no way to know this Fuzz. The way the hand was played it looks like he was on a draw too the likes of J10....

I don't like a check here unless I know my villain and his tendencies

pok3rplaya

fuzzbox wrote:

I like 1/2 pot bet the least.
If I am going to make a reasonable bet, then I like a shove.

really? It's very possible I have a major leak in this area. Could you explain please. You don't think there's value in K9ish hands that won't call a shove?

cardshark202

I check, fold to a shove call any other bet. Like if you haven't had any history its going to be hard for him to suddenly hope you are three barrelling. I think he folds a lot of marginal hands that he might decide to bet for value if checked to. The other move I like is a small bluff-inducing bet as that will get looked up very lightly, and may encourage him to bluff almost as much as you checking will.

BuChan

i'd have bet 70 or 80 trying to squeeze something out of his KJ/K10 possibly even AQ, it's blind on blind so he'll look you up light a lot. i think he must have piece of it not many people call a pot on the turn with J10. it might even be worth betting even less like 40/50 since then he'd definitely call but i don't like making bets like that as it's best to have concistency and you'd never bluff 40 into a 126 pot on the river on a bluff.

Marq

cardshark202 wrote:

I check, fold to a shove call any other bet.

You think the villian is capable of value-betting a worse hand/bluffing for all bets except a shove? Do you think that he always has you beat if he puts you all in?
Or do you just think that given the probabilities you've asigned to his various hands that a shove is just too expensive to call.
If I'm calling a 1/2 pot bet here I doubt I'd fold for the pot (a shove).
You're ahead here an awful lot of the time.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

I check, fold to a shove call any other bet.

With one psb left to bet, if I check, then I never fold this hand ever, are you crazy. If he bets less than pot, then I CRAI. I have a flush you know. Thats a good hand.

Why do you believe that him betting small is more likely to be a bluff/weaker hand than if he just sets me all-in? Surely thats a total nonesense.

Also - all you guys betting 70/80 here. Tell me why you think ppl will call 80 (remember its an 80 bet, leaving 55 in my stack), and not call a shove?

I think you leave money on the table by betting less than shove, if you decide to go for a strong bet. Betting 80 never fools anybody into believing you are weak, and also never induces a bluff, so you are left with the same hand range that will call a shove. Therefore, shove.

sikes

Who cares that you have a flush?

If you push allin you need Kx to call you a cartain amount of time for it to be +EV. How often do you think a lone K is looking you up? I doubt there are enough weaker flushes that get to the river to offset the times you run into a better flush or house.

fuzzbox

sikes wrote:

Who cares that you have a flush?

If you push allin you need Kx to call you a cartain amount of time for it to be +EV. How often do you think a lone K is looking you up? I doubt there are enough weaker flushes that get to the river to offset the times you run into a better flush or house.

No.

sikes

fuzzbox wrote:

No.

So Kx never has to look you up and its still profitable? What do you think his range is on the river?

Jam-Fly

Wow, does no one put Villain on a K or something here? There are alot of donkies who just call down with one pair.
I bet 60 here for value. If he pushes, can you really fold with 75 left?

cooker3

fuzzbox wrote:

Also - all you guys betting 70/80 here. Tell me why you think ppl will call 80 (remember its an 80 bet, leaving 55 in my stack), and not call a shove?

Because people are stupid

fuzzbox

cooker3 wrote:

Because people are stupid

which ppl ? the ppl who want to bet 80 out of 135 or the ppl who will call 80 but fold to 135 ?

eggie

fuzzbox wrote:

which ppl ? the ppl who want to bet 80 out of 135 or the ppl who will call 80 but fold to 135 ?

I dont think u should ever fold this hand, by betting you are only getting re raised by a better hand, by check pushing or check calling you beat a lot of hands he'll push with trying to represent a flush.

My feeling is, I want to get it all in, if he checks behind he would have folded to a push so check and let him bet a weaker hand if he has a weaker hand. If he has a better hand then results will be the same.

cooker3

fuzzbox wrote:

which ppl ? the ppl who want to bet 80 out of 135 or the ppl who will call 80 but fold to 135 ?

touche

valor

valor wrote:

i just shove

.

cardshark202

well i think you're beat here more than you think. i dont think your hand is so strong. i think just because you have a flush doesnt mean you have a right to go broke. i guess its unlikely he will try and bluff you here to be honest, and its unlikely he will look you up with Kx, and there are very few hands that he can have that you beat and that will call a big bet. I know his most likely hand is a flush but hes more likely to have a bigger flush than a smaller one.

[nicK]

shoving has to be optimal here..
villain's line is far too passive.. blind on blind i shove here every time, for value, as he's calling you down far lighter than your giving him credit for.. btw fuzz, why no hand historys?