Luas - Legal Requirement to Carry ID??

bullrunner

On the luas this morning, somebody hadn't bought a ticket and an inspector was giving them a fine. Person didnt have ID blah blah. Luas inspector responded to this that there "is a legal requirement to carry ID at all times in Ireland".....now unless I'm very much mistaken this is not the case.

Can anybody clarify this ?



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talkingclock

bullrunner wrote:

"is a legal requirement to carry ID at all times in Ireland"

What? An old ESB bill or what? Long form of Birth Cert?
I doubt it. Not even National ID cards are existent in this country.

MarkoP11

Your name, your address, the stop you boarded at and your destination thats all a member of Luas staff ask you. You are required to have a ticket and to produce such upon request

Its only if you have a ticket which requires ID are you required to produce the matching CIE/Luas issued ID card

It is an offence to give false details

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI100Y2004.html

AlekSmart

Am I correct in thinking that the Luas Revenue Official does NOT have the power to detain somebody whilst they verify the ID "Details" whereas a Dublin Bus official DOES have that very important power..?

MarkoP11

If you refuse to play ball all they can do is ask you to leave.

That said they can detain you by simply holding the tram at a stop with the doors closed while the boys in blue are called

Grudaire

MarkoP11 wrote:

while the boys in blue are called

Boys in blue stab vests!

I'm sure they but some sort of clause in to back themselves up- no ticket leaves them with very few options except to politely ask for for your name and address.

bullrunner

well..this luas woman was very insistant that the person without the ticket accompany her to store st garda station!

As for the luas keeping the person held inside the luas while they get the gardai...thats false imprisonment...they could do time for that.

Our man in Havana

bullrunner wrote:

well..this luas woman was very insistant that the person without the ticket accompany her to store st garda station!

There is no requirement in law to comply with such a request. The person could simply run off. Any form of restraint by the luas employee would amount to unlawful imprisonment.

John R

Bond-007 wrote:

There is no requirement in law to comply with such a request. The person could simply run off. Any form of restraint by the luas employee would amount to unlawful imprisonment.

And possibly an assault charge.

You can see why it is practically impossible for transport employees to deal with the fare evaders and general scum though.

monument

bullrunner wrote:

On the luas this morning, somebody hadn't bought a ticket and an inspector was giving them a fine. Person didnt have ID blah blah. Luas inspector responded to this that there "is a legal requirement to carry ID at all times in Ireland".....now unless I'm very much mistaken this is not the case.

Hault! Kann ich deine Papiere sehen*

Out of interest, do you know if this person gave any name and address to the ticket inspector?

(*Probably a poor web translation, and I love how the translator the adds a capital P to the German for papers!)

blah

monument wrote:

Hault! Kann ich deine Papiere sehen*

(*Probably a poor web translation, and I love how the translator the adds a capital P to the German for papers!)

Actually, in German, nouns are capitalised.

But Nazi Germany and Communist Russia popped into my head when I read the first post.
There is definitely no legal requirement for people to carry id at all times. I'd be quite irate at an inspector trying to accuse me of being guilty of 2 crimes!

monument

Come to think of it, the person could claim to be slandered.

Calina

bullrunner wrote:

On the luas this morning, somebody hadn't bought a ticket and an inspector was giving them a fine. Person didnt have ID blah blah. Luas inspector responded to this that there "is a legal requirement to carry ID at all times in Ireland".....now unless I'm very much mistaken this is not the case.

Can anybody clarify this ?

AFAIK Luas inspector is incorrect. On practical grounds, there isn't a standardised form of ID so it can't be asked for or carried anyway. If my memory serves me correctly, the nearest analagous regulation/rule/whatever (I am not a solicitor or law professional) is that you must, whilst driving, carry your driving licence. Not everybody has one because not everyone drives.
____________

However, I lived in Germany, France and Belgium, and if I'm not mistaken, in all three of those countries you are required to carry official identification with you at all times, not when leaving or coming into the country. Was the Luas inspector Irish or not?

Alun

Calina wrote:

However, I lived in Germany, France and Belgium, and if I'm not mistaken, in all three of those countries you are required to carry official identification with you at all times, not when leaving or coming into the country.

In the Netherlands too .. not exactly a Nazi or a Communist state, I think you'll agree. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean you have to carry a special identity card, just that you have to carry something that can identify you, and present it to certain people who are authorized to ask you for it, including those responsible for fare enforcement on public transport. Having lived with this for over 20 years, I saw nothing unusual about it, and can't really understand the huge backlash against the idea both here and in the UK.

Prof_V

There is a form of Irish internal transport (domestic flights, both Ryanair and Aer Arann) that requires ID, http://www.aerarann.ie/travel_information/passenger_information.htm
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php?sect=pid&quest=photoid) so it's clearly not completely impossible in law for a carrier to demand it, despite the absence of a standardised form. I do accept that local public transport is different from airlines, and I'm not sure there's a local transport system anywhere that requires ID where the jurisdiction has no compulsory ID, though Amtrak does (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/Title_Image_Copy_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1080080554204&ssid=342).

monument

Alun wrote:

Having lived with this for over 20 years, I saw nothing unusual about it, and can't really understand the huge backlash against the idea both here and in the UK.

http://www.no2id.net/IDSchemes/whyNot.php

testicle

Prof_V wrote:

There is a form of Irish internal transport (domestic flights, both Ryanair and Aer Arann) that requires ID, http://www.aerarann.ie/travel_information/passenger_information.htm
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/faqs.php?sect=pid&quest=photoid) so it's clearly not completely impossible in law for a carrier to demand it, despite the absence of a standardised form. I do accept that local public transport is different from airlines, and I'm not sure there's a local transport system anywhere that requires ID where the jurisdiction has no compulsory ID, though Amtrak does (http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/Title_Image_Copy_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1080080554204&ssid=342).

That has to do with Airport security regulations, and nothing to do with the fact that it's a domestic flight.

Prof_V

testicle wrote:

That has to do with Airport security regulations, and nothing to do with the fact that it's a domestic flight.

I am aware of that. The fact remains that the carrier is allowed to demand ID despite the absence of a standardised form thereof (a passport doesn't count as a standardised form for this purpose, as you can fly domestically or to the UK without one, and the airlines accept other forms of ID) . I don't remember any new primary legislation coming in when the requirement was introduced, either.

Probably getting off topic here, but I'm not sure how much of the requirement is airline-based and how much airport-based; there seems to be some divergence between the lists of acceptable documents, and Aer Arann's site seems to imply that Dublin-Cork is the only Irish domestic route where ID is required.

Enigma365

Yeah, there is no such law and even if there was, there are plenty of people who have neither a driving license, garda age card or passport so any law would in effect make passports/age cards mandatory or require the introduction of a new id card.

Just out of interest, did the culprit seem like he/she was lying or look like someone who might lie? I wonder if the luas operator was blagging a little bit out of frustration with repeat fare evaders.

Also, what happened in the end?

However, I lived in Germany, France and Belgium, and if I'm not mistaken, in all three of those countries you are required to carry official identification with you at all times, not when leaving or coming into the country.

I got asked for my passport by the police when on an internal train in Germany in March, so this sounds right. They asked me something in German first, probably to show my national identity card, but then asked for my passport when I said I didn't speak German.

dazberry

I had a Luas inspector ask me for Luas ID for an adult weekly ticket, and there was no telling him otherwise. In the end - and out of the goodness of his heart - he let me off with a warning. Out of the goodness of my heart I rang up customer service and complained. TBH I think he was just taking the p1ss - probably got some crap from some junkies (yes I'm red lining here) and just thought he'd take it out on someone.

D.

Andrew Duffy

Was it a rail/luas ticket? I think you need ID for those, but not for the Luas only and Bus/Luas seven day tickets.

bullrunner

monument wrote:

Hault! Kann ich deine Papiere sehen*

Out of interest, do you know if this person gave any name and address to the ticket inspector?

(*Probably a poor web translation, and I love how the translator the adds a capital P to the German for papers!)

Yeah the guy had given his name /address to the luas inspector.

Caline wrote:

Was the Luas inspector Irish or not?

The inspector sounded like she was English.


Having had the misfortune to have to use public transport on a regular basis for the past 15 odd years, I have never heard of this "requirement" before, so was very surprised to hear of it!

dazberry

Andrew Duffy wrote:

Was it a rail/luas ticket? I think you need ID for those, but not for the Luas only and Bus/Luas seven day tickets.

Luas only 7 day adult. http://www.luas.ie/ticket-types.php.


D.

Gillie

I received a cheque one time from my previous employer.
I went into the bank where the cheque was issued from to cash it. I did not/do not have an account there.

The lady said unless I had ID with me she couldn't cash it. So I produced my slightly battered Garda issued id which was about 8 years old. She said they could only accept a driving license or a passport!!!

I argued that I had neither with me and eventually she just cashed it.

Afterwards I realised that I am not oblidged to have either! Strange policy to have!