DTT: Only for TV licence holders?

taung

The probable introduction of a fully fledged DTT network in the next five years would allow the government to increase TV licence revenues by encrypting all DTT broadcasts and only providing authentication/decoder cards to people that have paid the TV licence fee.

The model for TV licencing would have to change, from TV licence per household to TV licence per TV.

The additional revenue generated could be used to fund new public television services/channels on the DTT network.

Does anyone think this is a likely or desirable scenario? I've added a little poll below to gauge reaction to this proposal.

Mossy Monk

taung wrote:

Does anyone think this is a likely or desirable scenario?

No.

taung

Well, the government will, in all likelihood, wish to include additional public service broadcasting on the DTT network.

How should the government fund these services; retain the existing TV licencing and increase the fee? raise income tax/corporation tax or VAT?

Or, should DTT not have any new public service broadcasting at all and all new services be funded by advertising?

flogen

How could you only provide encryption cards to people who pay their licence? What if I pay it in 2009 but not in 2010? Will they come and take my card off me, or will they have to produce new encryption cards every year?

They're sure to put the licence fee up - perhaps more than usual to cover the new services planned - but considering the fact that TV owners of any description in Ireland need a TV licence then DTT is automatically for licence holders only.

And TV licence per TV would be a disaster too

taung

flogen wrote:

How could you only provide encryption cards to people who pay their licence? What if I pay it in 2009 but not in 2010? Will they come and take my card off me, or will they have to produce new encryption cards every year?

They're sure to put the licence fee up - perhaps more than usual to cover the new services planned - but considering the fact that TV owners of any description in Ireland need a TV licence then DTT is automatically for licence holders only.

And TV licence per TV would be a disaster too

Well, I'm not au-fait with DTT authentication cards, but I'm assuming they can have a built in expiry date programmed? If so then when someone renews their TV licence a new DTT authentication card will be issued with a new expiry date. (How do SKY control expiry of their subscriptions?)

For the TV licence per TV proposal; I guess the government would reduce the current TV licence fee by a factor dependent on the average number of TV/Video-Recoders per household. This would mean that this proposal, in itself, would be revenue neutral.

L1011

new cards every year = about a tenner per card down the pan straight off. Would waste the total saving by catching non-payers.

taung

MYOB wrote:

new cards every year = about a tenner per card down the pan straight off. Would waste the total saving by catching non-payers.

Wow, that seems a very high price, where did you get that figure from?

I wonder what the current cost for collecting TV licences breaks down to in terms of number of households or number of TVs?

aphex™

Umm you don't need to get new cards to deny people access to content. You do that over the air. Eg. I subscribe to SKY Movies tonight & I have it in minutes and visa versa.

taung

taung wrote:

Wow, that seems a very high price, where did you get that figure from?

I wonder what the current cost for collecting TV licences breaks down to in terms of number of households or number of TVs?

To reply to myself, the current TV collection systems costs 26 million euro according to a contributor to an Oireachtas eConsultation.

That works out at approx. 26 euro per licence! (50 euro if you take into account TV licence evasion)

taung

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Umm you don't need to get new cards to deny people access to content. You do that over the air. Eg. I subscribe to SKY Movies tonight & I have it in minutes and visa versa.

How is this done, over the phone line or over the satellite downlink?

Tom Dunne

flogen wrote:

How could you only provide encryption cards to people who pay their licence? What if I pay it in 2009 but not in 2010? Will they come and take my card off me, or will they have to produce new encryption cards every year?

They could disable the card or the account over the air, much like they can do with Sky. No need for a new card.

flogen wrote:

but considering the fact that TV owners of any description in Ireland need a TV licence then DTT is automatically for licence holders only.

But, while I am utterly against the TV licence, this could provide a cheap means to enforce the licence - you don't pay, you don't get TV.

aphex™

taung wrote:

How is this done, over the phone line or over the satellite downlink?

They block access to content over the sat I believe. They do it over the air with freeview digital terrestial in uk, and did so even when they had ONdigital (itv digital) back in 1998.

taung

aphex&#8482 wrote:

They block access to content over the sat I believe. They do it over the air with freeview digital terrestial in uk, and did so even when they had ONdigital (itv digital) back in 1998.

OK, so we've removed the cost of having to issue new cards each year....we're making progress here!!!

subway

so we need a card reader built into dtv receivers now?
sky can turn you on and off becasue they have massive amounts of staff.

how much does an ota netork cost to administer?
0 euro, because its ota.
its the recipients responsibilty to receive it, not the SP.
we would need an entirely new goverment body for this :
with a call centre to deal with problems
a large number of staff to turn cards on and off
a new computer system to monitor whose in or out of date
a billing system that is integated into the above.
etc etc etc,

in short, no, ota tv should be ota
if the governemnt wants your money they need to come and get it

taung

subway wrote:

so we need a card reader built into dtv receivers now?
sky can turn you on and off becasue they have massive amounts of staff.

how much does an ota netork cost to administer?
0 euro, because its ota.
its the recipients responsibilty to receive it, not the SP.
we would need an entirely new goverment body for this :
with a call centre to deal with problems
a large number of staff to turn cards on and off
a new computer system to monitor whose in or out of date
a billing system that is integated into the above.
etc etc etc,

in short, no, ota tv should be ota
if the governemnt wants your money they need to come and get it

Maybe the government will subcontract the TV licencing work to SKY!!!

aphex™

subway wrote:

so we need a card reader built into dtv receivers now?
sky can turn you on and off becasue they have massive amounts of staff.

There already is a card reader and SKY cut you off automatically if your account is out of date or not renewed. A computer can do this.

subway wrote:

a new computer system to monitor whose in or out of date
a billing system that is integated into the above.
etc etc etc

They have a billing system and already have a call center to charge for the license fee.

subway wrote:

in short, no, ota tv should be ota
if the governemnt wants your money they need to come and get it

A notice saying "you cannot recieve this channel because you have not paid your license fee" is cheaper to send out than three letters and a court appearance.

The system could possibly be paid for by the increase in compliance levels with the television license requirement.

watty

It's a terrible idea. Read BBC's explination why they don't want a card system. And unlike RTE they don't have adverts.

taung

watty wrote:

It's a terrible idea. Read BBC's explination why they don't want a card system. And unlike RTE they don't have adverts.

Have you got a link to the BBC analysis of the card system for DTT Watty?

Ulsterman 1690

Not only would one need a seperate "licence" for each TV one would need one for DVD recorders as well (or loose the facility of being able to record RTE1 while watching RTE2. And what about people watching RTE outside the Republic of Ireland ?

On the plus side presumably one would be able to opt out from RTE and still watch TV from the UK or elsewhere but what about TV3 or Channel 6 and (given that most of its funding is from sources other than the licence fee) what about TG4

taung

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Not only would one need a seperate "licence" for each TV one would need one for DVD recorders as well (or loose the facility of being able to record RTE1 while watching RTE2.

I covered this point in an earlier response; divide current TV licence fee by average number of TVs/Video Recorders per household.

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

And what about people watching RTE outside the Republic of Ireland ?

DTT won't be broadcast outside of the Ireland, aside from fringe areas along the border, unless there are some new political moves made between north and south.

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

On the plus side presumably one would be able to opt out from RTE and still watch TV from the UK or elsewhere but what about TV3 or Channel 6 and (given that most of its funding is from sources other than the licence fee) what about TG4

No, my proposal is that the DTT card does not allow access to any channels if the TV licence is not paid (which is the same situation as the current TV licence; you've got to pay it even if you only watch TV3 on your telly).

Mossy Monk

And what about those who ignore DTT and stick with Sky and cable?

taung

Mossy Monk wrote:

And what about those who ignore DTT and stick with Sky and cable?

Stay as they are, I guess.

However it wouldn't take too much imagination to extend the proposed TV licence scheme to ensure the licence fee is paid by these subscribers;

- Impose new regulations on satellite and cable TV providers to check the national database of TV licence fee payers when a subscription is taken out and then on an annual basis.

flogen

taung wrote:

Stay as they are, I guess.

However it wouldn't take too much imagination to extend the proposed TV licence scheme to ensure the licence fee is paid by these subscribers;

- Impose new regulations on satellite and cable TV providers to check the national database of TV licence fee payers when a subscription is taken out and then on an annual basis.

So you really are sub-contracting TV licence enforcement to Sky and NTL?

And in the day and age that's upon us, what about all the IPTV broadcasters that'll make their way to Ireland over the next few years? Will they have to enforce the TV licence fee too? And VoD services?

Surely it would make more sense to have a mandatory trip-switch in all TVs (and PCs I guess) that would de-activate them if the licence fee wasn't being paid on that device? Not that I'd support such a thing.

Oh, and one final question - do all DTT boxes and TVs with DTT built-in have removable cards in them like the trial DTT boxes do? I didn't think they did.

taung

flogen wrote:

So you really are sub-contracting TV licence enforcement to Sky and NTL?

Well, we're moving well outside the scope of the original proposal just for DTT, but if the DTT scheme results in a national database of TV licence fee payers then it would be relatively easy for the government to force NTL/SKY to perform a check on this database before provisioning subscribers on their systems.

Anyhow, if DTT is well managed by the government NTL/SKY could find themselves with a rapidly diminishing subscriber base in Ireland.

flogen wrote:

And in the day and age that's upon us, what about all the IPTV broadcasters that'll make their way to Ireland over the next few years? Will they have to enforce the TV licence fee too? And VoD services?

IPTV/VoD? We'll be waiting quite a while for reliable IPTV services. But, I'll admit these types of services need additional analysis when it comes to enforcement of the TV licence fee.

flogen wrote:

Surely it would make more sense to have a mandatory trip-switch in all TVs (and PCs I guess) that would de-activate them if the licence fee wasn't being paid on that device? Not that I'd support such a thing.

I'd don't think this would ever be a runner; too many 'legacy' TV sets and PCs are multi-purpose devices.

flogen wrote:

Oh, and one final question - do all DTT boxes and TVs with DTT built-in have removable cards in them like the trial DTT boxes do? I didn't think they did.

No, but this point is irrelevant, if the government wanted to introduce my proposals they would mandate card based DTT boxes.

Ulsterman 1690

DTT won't be broadcast outside of the (???) Ireland, aside from fringe areas along the border, unless there are some new political moves made between north and south.

Ummm RTE analouge is available in places up to 60 miles from the border. Presumably RTE DTT will be also once theyve turned off the analouge signal and cranked up the power not to mention $ky subscribers throughout NI (and beyond) And after 2012 (NI analouge switchoff) it is pretty likely that RTE will be joining TG4 from Divis with (hopefully) a decent signal (rather than the pointlessly piddly analouge effort they have now)

No, my proposal is that the DTT card does not allow access to any channels if the TV licence is not paid (which is the same situation as the current TV licence; you've got to pay it even if you only watch TV3 on your telly).

And how is this going to stop people watching FTA channels on Satellite

flogen

taung wrote:

Well, we're moving well outside the scope of the original proposal just for DTT, but if the DTT scheme results in a national database of TV licence fee payers then it would be relatively easy for the government to force NTL/SKY to perform a check on this database before provisioning subscribers on their systems.

Why would a DTT scheme result in a national database of TV licence fee payers? Would that not assume that all TV owners in Ireland picked up a DTT box? The reality is that this won't happen and many will ignore DTT completely - so how is DTT going to set up a national database of TV owners when many TV owners won't sign up to it?
And you're still sub-contracting licence fee enforcement to foreign companies with commercial interests (and they wouldn't do that unless it was made worth their while).

Anyhow, if DTT is well managed by the government NTL/SKY could find themselves with a rapidly diminishing subscriber base in Ireland.

That's extremely unlikely to happen for a number of reasons.

IPTV/VoD? We'll be waiting quite a while for reliable IPTV services.

That's just what we need - another Gov-plan that thinks in the short-term.

I'd don't think this would ever be a runner; too many 'legacy' TV sets and PCs are multi-purpose devices.

PCs are also likely to come under the TV licence very soon because one of their purposes is watching TV.
The proposal of trip-switching TV sets was somewhat facetious too but it makes as much sense as assuming that everyone will buy into DTT.

No, but this point is irrelevant, if the government wanted to introduce my proposals they would mandate card based DTT boxes.

And make cardless boxes/TVs illegal? I'm not well versed in the matter but I bet that would breach any number of EU guidelines.

Tom Dunne

flogen wrote:

Why would a DTT scheme result in a national database of TV licence fee payers? Would that not assume that all TV owners in Ireland picked up a DTT box? The reality is that this won't happen and many will ignore DTT completely

I think they are planning to switch off analogue down the road, so I would imagine people wouldn't have much of a choice.

flogen

tom dunne wrote:

I think they are planning to switch off analogue down the road, so I would imagine people wouldn't have much of a choice.

But there are still people that have trouble receiving analogue signals and for the many houses that have NTL or Sky analogue is inconsequential.

My point being that not everyone will take DTT into their homes, because they already have a paid-for TV system

taung

flogen wrote:

And make cardless boxes/TVs illegal? I'm not well versed in the matter but I bet that would breach any number of EU guidelines.

No, if you buy a cardless box you wouldn't be able to receive DTT (in Ireland).

Which EU guidelines are you referring to?

lawhec

The potential flaws and loopholes in such a proposal make it a complete non starter.

* All terrestial broadcasts would have to be encrypted, and a common scrambling system would need to be agreed upon. A potential commercial channel looking to broadcast terrestially may object of having to being forced to scramble their signal for advertising reasons.

* A huge incentive would be out there for the system to be "cracked" with cloned/pirated cards being used.

* Anyone who didn't fancy paying the RoI licence fee could simply say "stuff that" and (as Ulsterman has already pointed out) watch television that's broadcast free-to-air. E.g. point the aerial northwards or eastwards towards the UK where it allows, or hook up a FTA satellite receiver and get BBC, ITV (and likely from next year, Channel 4). That would be a nightmare for Irish cultural heritage.

* Others have already pointed out that it would be a licence per-device, with the possible technical exception of PVRs. Again the problem of pirated cards could rear its head again (someone might "buy" a licenced card for one TV but use clones for other receivers). The UK government back in the mid-90's considered an extra fee on their licence fee for extra TVs in a household but this was quickly shot down.

As I've said before here and elsewhere, the current licence fee system both in the Irish Republic and the UK is not perfect, but is better than alternatives which would either damage the ethos of a public service broadcaster or make it liable to underfunding and/or government interference.

Fingleberries

taung wrote:

No, if you buy a cardless box you wouldn't be able to receive DTT (in Ireland).

Even the currently clear channels (RTÉ1, 2, TV3, TG4)?

flogen

taung wrote:

No, if you buy a cardless box you wouldn't be able to receive DTT (in Ireland).

Which EU guidelines are you referring to?

Well potentially The Television Without Frontiers Directive. Just a quick google finds this site which contains information on the directive's general principal:

The Directive establishes the principle that Member States must ensure freedom of reception and that they may not restrict retransmission on their territory of television programmes from other Member States. They may, however, suspend retransmission of television programmes which infringe the Directive's provisions on the protection of minors.

(someone more up to speed on this would be able to say for sure or not on this)

Then there's the fact that you're basically banning an item from other member states - there may be competition and free movement issues here. Again - I'm no expert but I'd bank on there being issues at EU level with such a move.

Sponge Bob

...and an Irish freesat sat sub if dtt does not reach you of course.

let TV3 pay for the freesat scheme, in cash

watty

You Naive Fools!!!

It would give TOTAL Government control of Media. A current affairs prog or satirical comedy and next morning no-one can receive that channel.

It would totally remove state independance and editorial integrity.

What about Mobile TV and travelling People?

It's the stupidest idea ever heard of. Better to tax everyone a €150+ year more if paying tax and abolish TV licence than this idea.

Foggy43

Watty!

Maybe Bertie is doing a deal with Hugo Chavez to form the next goverment:D