Digiweb Fraudsters

FX Meister

Signed up to Digiweb a while ago. Paid using my laser card. All well and good until I looked at my bank account today and they have debited my laser €17.97 for some reason. I asked for an extra 10GB for my first months bandwidth which I was told I would be charged €5 for, they never asked for a method of payment and I never received a bill. I never gave them authorisation to charge my laser card except for the first time. Has this happened to anyone else? I rang AIB and they told me it is a fraudulant transaction and to contact my branch in the morning to have it sorted out. I'm going to call digiweb and have them refund my card and then they can send me a bill before I pay anything I owe them.

Sponge Bob

they will have emailed you an invoice at the email address you gave them. You sure that your spam filter did not catch something about 2 weeks before the laser dd was taken ??

dub45

FX Meister wrote:

Signed up to Digiweb a while ago. Paid using my laser card. All well and good until I looked at my bank account today and they have debited my laser €17.97 for some reason. I asked for an extra 10GB for my first months bandwidth which I was told I would be charged €5 for, they never asked for a method of payment and I never received a bill. I never gave them authorisation to charge my laser card except for the first time. Has this happened to anyone else? I rang AIB and they told me it is a fraudulant transaction and to contact my branch in the morning to have it sorted out. I'm going to call digiweb and have them refund my card and then they can send me a bill before I pay anything I owe them.

There are a couple of issues here which may down to the complacency of companies regarding accessing customers accounts rather than Digiweb being fraudsters. However Digiwebs accounts department may be in need a of a strong kick in the rear if this post and this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055087471&referrerid=&highlight=digiweb+payment
are indicative of their attitude to customers.

Anyways you don't say what arrangement you have with Digiweb for your monthly billing? Did you give them your laser card no for this? If so they may simply have decided to debit this without (and I am being charitable here) ''realising' that they should notify you in advance for any additional charges - someone less charitable might say without bothering their a**se to notify you.

Then there is the issue of the amount which does not square with any amount you were expecting and that obviously needs to be clarified with Digiweb as to what is going on.

As I have written on here before and will no doubt do so again the whole 'electronic' payment thing whether its direct debit, laser or credit card is I believe far far too much in favour of the companies and the consumer is left to go and sort out the mess when the companies do not observe the procedures that they have signed up to when entering the schemes.

thebman

Yeah, its ridiculous to expect individual people to look after this. You can have everyone using the service police it or have someone overseeing it that polices it properly.

A system whereby a customer must confirm all these payments through online banking would be good enough (even if this was just optional for when your dealing with semi-trusted sources).

FX Meister

I gave them authorisation to charge my card once, when I paid in advance for the year. I had an issue where I went over my bandwidth and they said I could have an additional 10GB for the month for €5 and I would get a bill for this. I was waiting for a bill and then just noticed the laser transaction lastnight. The guy on the phone told me I was given wrong information and would have to pay for 3 months. I rang accounts but no reply. I have emailed them and if they haven't emailed me back by lunchtime I'll just get the bank to deal with this as a fraudulant transaction as they told me this is what it is.

watty

There is a difference between Fraud and a Mistake. It's not like some random criminal has stolen your money by fooling you. You are a customer of a service, they will no doubt sort it out. There is no suggestion that Digiweb are deliberately trying to steal people's money so calling it Fraud is OTT.

Sponge Bob

Tis OTT, Digiweb billing..relative their number of customers..is OK.

crap happens but they sure ain't BT

dub45

I am amazed that there has not been a major fraud so far (at least that we have heard of!!) in the electornic payment system.

The system is far far too open - we give bank account nos, credit and laser card details to employees over the phone or on billing mandates and we are given any assurances about how that information is handled from there on out, how it is stored, who has access to it etc. IPSO do not have any requirements for firms as far as I can see in their codes of practise.

When a customer leaves a company there is no assurance or requirements to remove their payment information from the company's systems.

What is to prevent anyone copying down (for their own use) bank account numbers or credit card numbers as they take them over the phone as people sign up. Where are direct debit mandates stored etc etc.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0521/tkmaxx.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6578595.stm

dub45

watty wrote:

There is a difference between Fraud and a Mistake. It's not like some random criminal has stolen your money by fooling you. You are a customer of a service, they will no doubt sort it out. There is no suggestion that Digiweb are deliberately trying to steal people's money so calling it Fraud is OTT.

Yes but there is a lot of wilful carelessness in companies' behaviour where they take the lazy option and just debit an account without following procedures and the companies themselves do not take a serious enough view of this. To take a money from a person's account without their permission is stealing - it is a simple as that but Companies do not have that view of their behaviour.

If a company takes an amount from a current account without informing the customer as they are required they can thow an account into overdraft - or their debit may result in a properly advised debit not being paid if a customer has not got a whole lot in his or her account. This can result in bank charges bother for the customer etc etc. And this is the eternal weakness in the system the customer has no sanction open to them when companies behave in this way. Basically companies can do what they bloodywell like and they know they wont suffer. Look at BT in its various incarnations over the years and the misery they knowlingly caused customers.

Has anyone ever heard of the direct debit facility being withdrawn from a misbehaving company?:rolleyes:

damien

watty wrote:

There is no suggestion that Digiweb are deliberately trying to steal people's money so calling it Fraud is OTT.

If they know there is a fault with their system and it has been proven there is, and they do not take enough care to recitify the system, then it can be classed as fraudulent. A company can make mistakes but subsequent inactions to prevent another mistake or fix the taking of money without permission will lead to them being labeled fraudulent.

As was pointed out in the thread that Dub45 linked to, Digiweb charged my friend a year in advance when he was paying per month all along. It took him over two months to get his money back from them. I personally made Digiweb directors aware of the problem and it was still 3 weeks before someone bothered to get off their hole and do something and that was only because a legal action was about to happen.

Sponge Bob

There is a logic hole in their system where someone pays upfront for a year (no problem) and then contracts into excess usage at some stage during that year

problems arise such as

a) should that be month to month or for the remainder of contract ???

b) should it be taken in advance or in arrears ??

c) should it be taken in advance pro rata the unexpired portion of the contract ??

d) should the initial year be on laser and the other charges on dd or laser ???

but its not fraud IMO, its a headache involving configuring a complex billing system for exceptions involving a few customers and where the proceure is rarely invoked.

Had the OP gone along with the usual throttle after he bust the cap then this thread would simply not have happened...but he obviously wanted his full bandwith back at least once and obviously contacted them about it.

They neglected to inform him that they ALREADY had his details and would use them again .....but maybe it was urgent that he be unthrottled and the OP has forgotten that he conveyed this urgency to Digiweb and the CS fixed it urgently .

Were they shysters we would know by now, in my opinion. I do not think Digiweb are shysters or serial incompetents . Nor am I generally known for holding back where I can prove serial incompetence in the ISP industry....... am I ?????

ceepee

FX Meister - I imagine from the info posted whats happened here is that you are on Metro Lite service, which is only available as a Quarterly or Annual billing option. The +10Gb upgrade is an ongoing service upgrade for customers requiring additional quota - if you only needed it for the one month perhaps this was not clear to the CS at the time ...

will you PM me your account reference so this can be checked into and addressed asap please?

thanks!

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote:

There is a logic hole in their system where someone pays upfront for a year (no problem) and then contracts into excess usage at some stage during that year

problems arise such as

a) should that be month to month or for the remainder of contract ???

b) should it be taken in advance or in arrears ??

c) should it be taken in advance pro rata the unexpired portion of the contract ??

d) should the initial year be on laser and the other charges on dd or laser ???

but its not fraud IMO, its a headache involving configuring a complex billing system for exceptions involving a few customers and where the proceure is rarely invoked.

Had the OP gone along with the usual throttle after he bust the cap then this thread would simply not have happened...but he obviously wanted his full bandwith back at least once and obviously contacted them about it.

They neglected to inform him that they ALREADY had his details and would use them again .....but maybe it was urgent that he be unthrottled and the OP has forgotten that he conveyed this urgency to Digiweb and the CS fixed it urgently .

Were they shysters we would know by now, in my opinion. I do not think Digiweb are shysters or serial incompetents . Nor am I generally known for holding back where I can prove serial incompetence in the ISP industry....... am I ?????

The simple question 'How do you wish to pay for that Sir?' would surely go a long way no? And this is what I mean by companies being 'lazy' - staff do not take seriously the privlege of being able to access someone's account so easily.

For instance suppose a local shop would not do business with you unless they had the key of your house - and a day comes when they think that you owed them 20 euros - you would be appalled if the owner of the shop said to one of his employees 'heres the key of no xxxx just run down and grab 20 euros whereever you can find it' yet the equivalent regularly happens in electronic payment systems and no one seems to care too much.

dub45

ceepee wrote:

FX Meister - I imagine from the info posted whats happened here is that you are on Metro Lite service, which is only available as a Quarterly or Annual billing option. The +10Gb upgrade is an ongoing service upgrade for customers requiring additional quota - if you only needed it for the one month perhaps this was not clear to the CS at the time ...
will you PM me your account reference so this can be checked into and addressed asap please?

thanks!

Surely it is up to the CS to make sure they understand what the customer wants and to confirm payment methods with the customer?

Do Digiweb not have a system in place to advise customers in advance when payments of any sort are going to be debited to an account?

If not why not?

Such advance notice is surely a basic requirement of any electonic payment system.

I know in this case we are talking about a laser card but for example one of the first points of the direct debit scheme guide for originators:

''Originators must put in place reliable systems which will ensure:

* the issuance of correct advance notification as appropriate of amounts to be debited''

If the proper culture and training are in place (which they rarely are course) then an employee will be aware that a customer cannot be debited without appropriate notice.

Sponge Bob

dub45 wrote:

Surely it is up to the CS to make sure they understand what the customer wants and to confirm payment methods with the customer?

or that the customer would remember how they paid Digiweb originally ???

Do Digiweb not have a system in place to advise customers in advance when payments of any sort are going to be debited to an account?

Yes . this was an advance payment though so its not relevant IMO....and its not a DD either

If the proper culture and training are in place (which they rarely are course) then an employee will be aware that a customer cannot be debited without appropriate notice.

Totally agreed dub45 , nevertheless its

1. Difficult to train CS for exceptions ( a one off excess cap is what the OP wanted)
2. Difficult and time consuming to configure billing systems for exceptions.

Abuse of DD is

1. non notification of imminent bill 2 weeks hence .
2. billing double or treble ( the most common problem is multiple submission)
3. not crediting back immediately by reverse dd with cost to customer added, if they take a €10 off you it costs you €10.20 which is what they should reverse .
4. and not redeploying staff to smartly deal with these cockups when the company knows it happened.

if 3 and 4 are done properly the money should be back in your account along with a grovelling email almost BEFORE you know its gone. Thats proper CS .

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote:

or that the customer would remember how they paid Digiweb originally ???.

The customer's memory in my view in this case is not relevant. The customer paid a year in advance for internet access. In a further transaction the customer ordered extra bandwidth. His account was subsequently hit for an amount which did not tally with his order - without his permission to use that method pf payment and without notice.

Sponge Bob wrote:

Yes . this was an advance payment though so its not relevant IMO....and its not a DD either

I dont understand your first point here at all - Digiweb were going to charge a customer an amount of money by way of his laser card - the onus is absolutely on them to notify him in advance - there is no excuse for not doing so. It is irrelevant that it is not a dd it it an electronic payment and for the customer to have control of his account and to be able to correct any misbilling an advance notice has to be mandatory. Incidentally if Digiweb had done their stuff then the poster would have been able to contact them and agree a course of action and this thread would not exist.

Sponge Bob wrote:

Totally agreed dub45 , nevertheless its

1. Difficult to train CS for exceptions ( a one off excess cap is what the OP wanted)
2. Difficult and time consuming to configure billing systems for exceptions.

Abuse of DD is

1. non notification of imminent bill 2 weeks hence .
2. billing double or treble ( the most common problem is multiple submission)
3. not crediting back immediately by reverse dd with cost to customer added, if they take a €10 off you it costs you €10.20 which is what they should reverse .
4. and not redeploying staff to smartly deal with these cockups when the company knows it happened.

if 3 and 4 are done properly the money should be back in your account along with a grovelling email almost BEFORE you know its gone. Thats proper CS .

Surely it is not that difficult to ask a customer how they wish to pay for an additonal amount of bandwidth and if Digiweb offer the service of being able to buy extra then surely it is up to them to have an adequate system in place to pay for it?

By the way there is a direct debit scheme now (direct debit extra) which only require seven days notice!!! Apparently you automatically go on this one when you sign up to a direct debit mandate over the phone. (Madness in my view)

Anyone signing up to a direct debit scheme should emphasise that they require 14 days clear notice not 14 days from the date of the bill which can be issued at any stage.

kc66

It costs €5.99 per month for the extra 10gb and it is charged quarterly in advance. Hardly fraud?

RangeR

kc66 wrote:

It costs €5.99 per month for the extra 10gb and it is charged quarterly in advance. Hardly fraud?

The amount in question is not relevant, if you mean that it was apiddly small amount. It's the means in which that amount was taken and the amount that was agreed in the first place.

Go dub45, you're my hero. But, but, but, so it Spongey. Man, I'm torn between two lovers.....

dub45

kc66 wrote:

It costs €5.99 per month for the extra 10gb and it is charged quarterly in advance. Hardly fraud?

No but wrongly debited without notice and without confirming method of payment (apparently) And without being fully explained to the customer (apparently).

So poor training at the very least and a lack of respect (shown by many organisations) for the proper notification requirements. May not be fraud but it can mess up a person's account badly.

FX Meister

In relation to whether it is fraud or not. According to what AIB, what Digiweb have done is classed as fraud. They charged my Laser card without informing me of any amount I owed them, without providing a bill and without authorisation. Up until lunchtime today they had not provided me with any contract or account number. After having my call bounced around and dropped a number of times I finally got in touch with a woamn named Crsytal who handled the problem expertly. They made a mistake with my email address which is why I never received any contact from them. I explained how I had asked for the extra 10Gb for the first month only and was told this was fine. The price I was quoted did not say it was ex vat. She said that my card will be refunded the difference and my card will not be charged again without my authorisation.

Sponge Bob

FX Meister wrote:

In relation to whether it is fraud or not. According to what AIB, what Digiweb have done is classed as fraud.

Funny how anal AIB can be about a customer cancelling a DD then if they are so principled about fraud .

FX Meister

I don't know how principled they are about fraud, my situation fits the definition of fraud though. My mother had her card skimmed a while ago and it took ages for AIB to sort it out. I was dreading having similar trouble until Digiweb took care of it.

dub45

IrishTLR wrote:

The amount in question is not relevant, if you mean that it was apiddly small amount. It's the means in which that amount was taken and the amount that was agreed in the first place.

Go dub45, you're my hero. But, but, but, so it Spongey.
Man, I'm torn between two lovers.....

Ah Mary McGregor lives!

Shucks I don't know what to say but no stalking now! Although at my age any attention is welcome!!!:D

Mr Alan

FX Meister wrote:

I don't know how principled they are about fraud, my situation fits the definition of fraud though. My mother had her card skimmed a while ago and it took ages for AIB to sort it out. I was dreading having similar trouble until Digiweb took care of it.

your situation cannot even nearly be classed as "fraud", poor customer service maybe, they made a mistake with your email, they did not try to scam you out of money.

FX Meister

What do you do for a living millersangel? Do you work for a bank? Are you any good at your job? If you used you laser card in Tesco to buy your shopping and then, a month later, you found they had charged your laser card for 3 bottles of wine totally seperately and without your permission would you class that as fraud? Or would that be cool with you. It doesn't matter what you say, Digiweb charged my Laser card without authorisation or notification, that is fraud. Whether it was done due to poor customer service or not is irrelevant.

Mr Alan

FX Meister wrote:

What do you do for a living millersangel? Do you work for a bank? Are you any good at your job? If you used you laser card in Tesco to buy your shopping and then, a month later, you found they had charged your laser card for 3 bottles of wine totally seperately and without your permission would you class that as fraud? Or would that be cool with you. It doesn't matter what you say, Digiweb charged my Laser card without authorisation or notification, that is fraud. Whether it was done due to poor customer service or not is irrelevant.

I actually do work in the financial services industry (not a bank but close enough).
These people did not charge your card out of the blue like that example you gave above. They charged you for a service that as far as they were concerned you requested. Also, they tried to notify you of the charge, but you didnt recieve it because they had the wrong email add (do you speak clearly on the phone at all times? ).
Did they send you out any documentation when you started using their service? Terms of business etc etc, if they did i presume you read every inch of it, front and back?
Also, i'd imagine they probably sent out a synopsis of the service that they were providing incl all the contact information they had on file. Did you notice the incorrect email add? or did you just not bother reading anything that was sent out to you?

Again, i'm not arguing that it wasnt a mistake they made charging your card. just the fact that it was not intentional and they did not purposefully scam you (fraud) as you seem to believe.

dub45

millersangel wrote:

I actually do work in the financial services industry (not a bank but close enough).
These people did not charge your card out of the blue like that example you gave above. They charged you for a service that as far as they were concerned you requested. Also, they tried to notify you of the charge, but you didnt recieve it because they had the wrong email add (do you speak clearly on the phone at all times? ).
............................

Again, i'm not arguing that it wasnt a mistake they made charging your card. just the fact that it was not intentional and they did not purposefully scam you (fraud) as you seem to believe.

But Digiweb did charge the poster out of the blue there is no denying that. He had no warning of the charge coming and it also was a charge that bore no apparent relation to any amount that had been quoted to him.

An unsuccessful attempt at contact does not change the fact that the debit was out of the blue. (And if Digiweb did use a wrong email address surely it would have been bounced back to them and they would have noticed that their attempt to contact him had not been a success?)

In typical financial services culture you are putting all the onus on the poster here - ''do you speak clearly on the phone at all times''? why not ask 'do Digiweb staff listen properly? It is just as valid a question?

As I said above several times why didn't Digiweb ask the poster ''how do you wish to pay for this sir?'' Simple question that would have averted all of this.

On the other hand the financial services (as in banks!!) are very quick to penalise their customers who make mistakes - slip over your overdraft limit - wham! a charge is made - miss a direct debit wham a charge is made.

''I didnt meant it'' doesn't go very far with the financial services when the individual makes a mistake. On the other hand when a company makes a mistake or a bank there is no sanction available to the individual who is supposed to be forgiving and understanding.

I repeat yet again there is not the proper culture of compliance or respect in Companies with regard to accessing peoples' accounts without their permission. If I accessed any of the financial institutions accounts as a hacker and took as little as a fiver just as a prank what would happen to me if they managed to find out? I don't imagine a 'Sorry' would get me very far!

millersangel wrote:

Did they send you out any documentation when you started using their service? Terms of business etc etc, if they did i presume you read every inch of it, front and back?

Again this is the type of financial service arrogance that grates really badly.
Whatever Digiweb may or may not have sent out is irrelevant in this case and it is not up to you to make presumptions in respect of whether people read every inch of it front and back. Can the customer assume for instance that all financial services and bank staff are familiar with every term and condition of every scheme that the banks operate? Can their customers assume that Digiweb or indeed any other isp staff have read of every inch of the Terms and Conditons front and back. And I would suggest that Digiweb's Terms and Conditions are most unlikely to cover the question of a once off purchase of extra bandwidth and payment for it. And even if it was covered in the terms and conditions there would be still a requirement for advance notification of any debit.

millersangel wrote:

Also, i'd imagine they probably sent out a synopsis of the service that they were providing incl all the contact information they had on file. Did you notice the incorrect email add? or did you just not bother reading anything that was sent out to you?

First off this is a major assumption on your part in respect of the efficiency and or policy of any of the isps. I dont know of any isp that sends out a synopsis of their service or contact information to customer for checking. (Thats not to say it doesnt happen of course!)

Is it usual on the part of financial services staff to make assumptions in respect of people who dare to make criticisms that they do not read terms and conditions or check stuff? Is it usual to attempt to belittle people?

When the poster uses the term 'fraudulent' he is actually using a term that was mentioned to him by someone employed in the financial services.

Did that person not do their homework?

damien

Far too many sockpuppets on this thread.

falteringstar

Why would you give them your Laser details?! You shouldn't setup Standing Orders or Direct Debits from your Debit Card, it isnt a credit card, and you have less come back than you would if you had set it up directly from your current account.

Secondly its not fraud, because you set up a standing order with them which is being taken out of your Laser, when you setup a Standing Order like that you agree to multiple Debits of differing amounts on Different days. In fact its a Chargeback query you need to raise, not a fraud query, as you have authorized the transaction by authorizing the direct debit.

If you think they over charged you by taking 17 instead of 5, ask for a chargeback from your branch.

I work in AIB's Debit Card area BTW

dub45

falteringstar wrote:

Why would you give them your Laser details?! You shouldn't setup Standing Orders or Direct Debits from your Debit Card, it isnt a credit card, and you have less come back than you would if you had set it up directly from your current account.

Secondly its not fraud, because you set up a standing order with them which is being taken out of your Laser, when you setup a Standing Order like that you agree to multiple Debits of differing amounts on Different days. In fact its a Chargeback query you need to raise, not a fraud query, as you have authorized the transaction by authorizing the direct debit.

If you think they over charged you by taking 17 instead of 5, ask for a chargeback from your branch.

..............

The poster gave them his laser card details because he was paying for a subscription up front a year in advance - simple as that. The use of a laser card in such a manner does not confer on any company the right to make further transactions. He did not set up a standing order - which by the way is completely separate from the laser card system.

A standing order is for the payment of fixed amounts from a current account on a regular basis and is totally within the control of the customer - the company involved has no say in it.

And even where a person chooses to pay regular amounts such as monthly bills by laser card or credit card it does not remove the obligation on the billing company to provide appropriate advance notice of the amounts to be debited.

falteringstar wrote:

I work in AIB's Debit Card area BTW

Gold help them!:rolleyes: