Line Check - Hand deep in the GJP ME (Shallow Stacks)

LuckyLloyd

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robinlacey

LuckyLloyd wrote:

He is seated to my immediate right. At the break I noted that I was feeling the pressure and was afraid of going out before the money.

at the world series last year,there was a young english guy sitting to my right.he seemed like a nice guy,and we got to talking.it was my first time playing such a big tournament and his also,we had both qualified online,we were both mainly mid stakes cash game players.

we were chatting away for a while,and he started counting his chips and so on.the two of us were probably the biggest stacks at the table.anyway,he finishes counting his stacks,asks me how much i have,and i reply that i have about the same.

then he says : "cool,we should both easily have enough to make it to day two".more than once he said stuff like he didnt really have to risk playing any big pots since he had more than enough chips to cruise to day two,that sort of thing.

needless to say,i didn't fold once when he was involved in a pot for the rest of the day.when he tried to steal i'd either reraised or call and float the flop.
when he got moved to my table he had slightly more chips than me,i think i finished up the day with about twice as many chips as him.

he was of course delighted to make it to day two.


as for this hand,why would you raise the flop?
your pair definitely has showdown value in a battle of the blinds situation,i would just call and see what happens on the turn.

AKQJ10

i think from what he said about are you getting the right price to chase a flushdraw that he wants you in the hand and isnt all that worried by your draw. i think he could have a pair with the As or something. i reckon he might just limp in the sb with an ace.

ditpoker

AKQJ10 wrote:

i think from what he said about are you getting the right price to chase a flushdraw that he wants you in the hand and isnt all that worried by your draw. i think he could have a pair with the As or something. i reckon he might just limp in the sb with an ace.

shouldnt you be being a degenerate in the jackpot?

Lloyd, as you explained the hand to me its fine. i.e i get why you played it as above.

The only reservation i would have is that when he leads the flop, there is no shame in just mucking then, and the hand wont have cost you a penny. Dave is one of the best players around, and you dont need to be playing a complicated hand against him when there are much weaker players still left. you muck after the flop and you have 63k with 45mins to go at 2k.4k... AND dave is on a similar stack rather than a big tank. You fold there and you cash 90% of the time i reckon, you win the hand as played and you have a big cash alot of the time you lose the hand and you are out the door soon after.

I think last time out you;d have folded the flop as you were happy to cash and once you;d secured 10k is when you started trying to win the tourney. Getting to 100k with 18 left won;t win you the tournament. i guess what im trying to say is that you played the hand as if trying to win the tournament and get a big stack, and if you win the hand great but if you lose your close to busto. last time out i think you;d have been more cautious and trued to secure a cash win then try to move up the money aggressively.

cardshark202

I hate this. You could be screwed by a better pair+flush draw very easily. I think you should just call the flop or even fold if you feel uneasy calling down with a very marginal hand. I think folding is probably your best option actually.

robinlacey

i really don't think folding is an option,he has to be way ahead of his range here (im presuming his range is pretty much any two cards)

AKQJ10

ditpoker wrote:

shouldnt you be being a degenerate in the jackpot?

im leaving my house now. lloyd should never be playin to just cash. but i dont like this spot to get your chips in. your not drawing to the nuts and you only have middle pair. i think alot of the time your drawing to your ten here or another 4

cardshark202

robinlacey wrote:

i really don't think folding is an option,he has to be way ahead of his range here (im presuming his range is pretty much any two cards)

If he had Ts8x and the board was Qs8s3s I would be more inclined to call. You need him to have a very specific hand for you to be in great shape here.

robinlacey

well i'm not expecting him to be in great shape,but i think the most likely outcome if he calls is that its checked down after that,and i think he's ahead more often than not.

its not the sort of board someone oop is going to fire a second barrell on with nothing...

Iago

robinlacey wrote:

well i'm not expecting him to be in great shape,but i think the most likely outcome if he calls is that its checked down after that,and i think he's ahead more often than not.

isn't Dave all-in?

robinlacey

sorry,i was just talking about calling the first bet on the flop here.i think (hope) that that's what cardshark was talking about too.

DeVore

I hate the reraise, I think I can find a fold there. I dont think Dave is trying to take you off your hand with a draw but you might be priced in now to call, thats the problem with your reraise, it commits you to the hand. Dave has at least a spade draw here and possibly a pair with it so you could be in serious trouble. I think the crying call is the best option once you reraised and he moves in.

DeV.

cardshark202

calling with the hope of being able to check it down is usually a pretty bad strategy. He could be firing with any two yeah but our hand is too vunerable imo. There are too many overcards and we aren't really overjoyed if a spade hits either.

DeVore

Well Dave is all in so its call and see two or fold. I dont like calling but I think he has priced himself in when dave moves in for 27k more all in. Do you think he should fold at that point?

DeV.

58o

I really dont like this spot, i can find a fold on the flop easy enough. I could not feel comfortable getting that much of my stack in with that holding in an unraised pot. Maybe its a weakness in my game, but i just dont go to war in unraised pots like this with a decent villain., when his hand is completely undefined.

cardshark202

Well now that we've got to this position I guess its a call though I would hate it.

[nicK]

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Context
Table is six handed. All limp to Dave on the small blind. He completes and I check my option with 10s4c.

Flop (8,000) Qs4s3s

Dave leads for 6000.

looking at this objectively i think we can find a fold here after the flop bet..
failing that, the almost insta-reraise by yourself may signal a mediocre hand and dave could be playing back light here but more often than not i feel we're behind and should find a fold..

tough spot..

pok3rplaya

push the flop f making decisions

White Knight

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Dave leads for 6000. I quickly re - raise to 18000.

There is 24k in pot and Dave bets 6k oop on a flop which could favour the limpers and certainly raggedy enough to improve a BB that checks preflop. To me this move oozes strength?

If he wanted to take down the pot, surely he would have pushed any 2 preflop to take the circa 20k rather than bet minimum oop on the flop? And if he had a marginal/drawing hand, he would check call or check fold oop?

LuckyLloyd wrote:

He thinks, re - checks his cards twice and moves in for another 27500 to me.

I tend to find that players who are bluffing are usually less likely to check their cards before making a move

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Dave says two things:

"Are you wondering if you have the right price to chase a flushdraw?"

And after I seperate 27500 from my stack:

"You are still in if you fold".

Again, I also tend to find the majority of speech play is usually strength rather than weakness. :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd

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califano

I would not reraise the flop. I probably wouldnt even bet it if small blind checked.
Everyone has limped, small blind has to be strong here and willing to go all the way against anyone if he's betting out here otherwise betting is stupid. He probably would have a better pair and draw than you here and if not then someone behind you.

ianmc38

What was your thinking when you raised the flop.

I'd probably call as played.

58o

I've only just notice everyone else has limped in as well. as Rounders has said above, this surely means the SB has a hand to go to war with. Easy flop fold.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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califano

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Sorry Aidan. It is blind on blind. Everyone else folded preflop (OP edited). FWIW, I could never raise or bet that flop if there was another 4 players with cards behind. Sorry.

Ah ok that makes sense. In that case to answer your question i havent got a clue!. But i do think in a situation like this there is no stock line and we play each of our three different options on other occasions when he bets. Being there would make the difference so you would be best placed to tell whats best to do than anyone who could post here.

cardshark202

Ha i just assumed everyone had folded to you so my responses were geared towards a blind on blind confrontation. Carry on...

Daithio

Alot of the time I do bet with absolute air here, I think it's a good flop to take a stab at against a solid player.

cardshark202

But we can also assume you arent limping with any 2 so preflop your hand is no doubt ahead of T4.

Marq

I think that your raise is effectively a bluff. Once he re-raises I think you should fold.

I don't like the raise at all because your hand has some showdown value. Also, if you improve to the flush in an inflated pot it is going to be difficult to get away from. If you keep the pot small then you can use the turn and river action to decide your best course/gain info about dave's hand.

The way you've played it you've set yourself up for either a shítty flop decision or a fold from dave that sacrafices any chance of getting value from your pair+FD.

I doubt there are many hands that dave could have that will flat call your raise, it's push or fold.

Oh and you're so boned here such a large % of the time.

Marq

Daithio wrote:

Alot of the time I do bet with absolute air here, I think it's a good flop to take a stab at against a solid player.

true, but now you've been raised and stuck your tank in over the top. Your range has shrunk considerably.

Samba

i'm not happy risking my tourney in this spot.

Bandana boy

I know i tend to make this call a lot i think on the balance its a bad call i shove flop rather than reraise

result please

robinlacey

Marq wrote:

Oh and you're so boned here

don't think i've ever heard that one before!

LuckyLloyd

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Goodluck2me

Im not sure i like the 4bet with TP-QK here either, if lloyd was priced in to cal with such a medicore hand then dave had little-no FE obv. unless he really though lloyd was at it, im not sure its good. anyone else agree or is my thinking way off?

Marq

I think a pair and a flush draw is a large part of LL's range, and given the action Pre-flop Dave's hand is likely to be best right now. He should ship it because he doesn't have any folding equity - he wants to get his money in ahead and it's very likely that it is right now.

I still hate the call. If Dave's hand was KQ with the K of spades the action may have been similar and lloyd would be practically dead.