Greens election

Lazairus

I am sad , because greens and the alternative done, so bad ,
to me this is really bad.

We are going to see , huge climate change , rise in cancer levels ,
The completion of many road projects the continuation of The M3 , that will destroy our local environment
A weaker EPA. It is evident that Irish people short slightness is to blame, they obviously don't give a toss,Well F**k them all . Those people who voted FF Will be the ones 50 years time , when half of Ireland is flooded , Why didn't i vote green. I can see it now. To me it seems that Irish people don't appreciate their country .

For me its time to leave this country ,Maybe go to New Zealand Where they actually care about their Environment. Because I now Hate FF and will never Vote FF again.I voted Green .

Grudaire

Money means all in todays society.... unfortunately.

BendiBus

FF/Green could be a very real possibility for the next Government.

Is now the time for pragmatism? An opportunity to gain a ministerial post or two and actually do something.

According to the RTÉ pundits the numbers are looking just right and the Greens will demand fewer cabinet posts than Labour, making them attractive to FF.

Trevor & John at the cabinet table may be a chance to show that the Greens can actually deliver. A step towards a real leap forward at the next election.

Mellor

The greens will ask for fewer posts, but they will want ones they are suited to. A green minster for the environment, who would of thought

quickbeam

I think Greens are suited to the Transport job too. Though I know that's unlikely. If FF and Greens do go it together, the Greens will probably only get one ministerial job and that will be the environiment.

Really got my fingers crossed that FF will pick the Greens now.

Grudaire

Mellor wrote:

A green minster for the environment, who would of thought

I don't know if they'll be given environment, that might go against FF's policy (and support) as the Greens would bring in actual working legislation!

BostonB

Cliste wrote:

Money means all in todays society.... unfortunately.

Well that's always been the way hasn't it. Pity.

bk

Well according to the SBPost it will most likely be PD's + independents.

It seems many in FF believe that the Greens are too "flaky" and would collapse the government and the first hint of controversy.

philologos

and Enda still thinks he can be Taoiseach god love him

Do-more

bk wrote:

Well according to the SBPost it will most likely be PD's + independents.

It seems many in FF believe that the Greens are too "flaky" and would collapse the government and the first hint of controversy.

On the RTE 9 o'clock news this evening they were saying that FF placing the PD's + indies as first option was just a tactic to soften up the Green's expectations.

The biggest problem as I see it for the Greens is that they have never been in this situation before and have no experiance of the negotiating involved. If I were working in Green Party HQ I'd be straight on the phone to Roger Dawson to get him over here quick sharp. He could dance rings around Biffo!

10-10-20

Greens and FG in the next government? I'm scared!

I voted green this time around, but ... if the Greens and FG get in, the country will become a vacuum from the speed that the multinationals leave to avoid the tax hike.

art

10-10-20 wrote:

Greens and FG in the next government? I'm scared!

I voted green this time around, but ... if the Greens and FG get in, the country will become a vacuum from the speed that the multinationals leave to avoid the tax hike.

As opposed to bending over with our arses in the air asking anyone and everyone to make themselves comfortable??? Courting multi-nationals is not a long term solution to anything. Unfortunately, Fianna Fail have always been in the market for the shortest gain so whatever works in time for the next election will be implemented but it's about time we had someone, like the Greens, with a longer term perspective on things.

barrett1965

Cliste wrote:

Money means all in todays society.... unfortunately.

You got it in one, my friend.

Gablin

If money meant all, the PDs would have been returned to government.

prospect

I voted FF 1 and Greens 2.

I would like to see FF & Greens go into power together, but doubt it will happen.

The reason I voted like this is because under a majority Green or FG/Lab government the economy will collapse. And an unsustainable economy will never develop into a green economy.

I am a big believer that this country can become a much more environmentaly aware and proactive. But you have to be realistic, and clever in how it is done.

It is easy to tell everyone to leave their car at home and cycle or use public transport, but realistically this is not feasible in most cases. So, steps need to be taken first to make the transition to a greener way of life easier, that way it is more likely that people will maintain it.

Grudaire

Gablin wrote:

If money meant all, the PDs would have been returned to government.

It would seem like that, but why vote for annoying leaders who give tax cuts (Mr McDowell) when you can have lovable rouges who also promise tax cuts (BBertie):D

brianthebard

Hang on OP, "the alternative" didn't have a bad election, FG gained a massive amount of seats and labour managed to stay fairly stable. The greens and smaller parties lost out because the electorate obviously don't feel the GP has the policies and quality representatives to go into government.

BendiBus

prospect wrote:

under a majority Green or FG/Lab government the economy will collapse.

What is your reaonsing behind FG/Lab causing the economy to collapse?

silverharp

BendiBus wrote:

What is your reaonsing behind FG/Lab causing the economy to collapse?

agreed, to be fair any irish gov will have very little control over the economy, they don't set interest rates , money supply, borrowing is limited to 3%. if they raise taxes, people will quiet rightly evade tax.

bk

BendiBus wrote:

What is your reaonsing behind FG/Lab causing the economy to collapse?

Well the economy can collapse under any government, I'd rather have a solid, stable government in place to deal with it, then a government made up of every colour under the rainbow, which would likely spend far too much time bickering with itself.

prospect

Ok,

Well to be fair, I don't think FG had the fantastic election they would have us believe. The way I look at it, they are only making back the ground that they lost in their 2002 disaster election.

FG policies and figures just did not add up. Simple as that.

Enda Kenny was stumpe when grilled by Matt Cooper about how he would manage to increase hospital beds, increase nurses pay and decrease nurses working hours, and yet he reckoned he would not have to increase the health budget, and he would not have to take on more nurses???? I think FG are just naive to alot of things and that we would be seeing serious personal and VAT increases within 2 budgets to cover for all their poor predictions and calculations.

But, that is simply my opinion.

I hope that the greens do play a minority part in the new government and future governemnts, but can't see it happening.

Grudaire

prospect wrote:

FG policies and figures just did not add up. Simple as that.

Aye, neither does Berties bank account!

prospect

Cliste wrote:

Aye, neither does Berties bank account!

That is possible, but it does not directly effect my chances of remaining in gainful employment and paying the lowest income tax in europe for the next 5 years.

Anyway, this is gone wayyyy off topic.

My point is, green policies are good, but in order for them to work, they must be sustainable and pratical and not at the expense of the economy, otherwise the general public will simply not implement them.

Keeks

off to politic we go!

brianthebard

bk wrote:

Well the economy can collapse under any government, I'd rather have a solid, stable government in place to deal with it, then a government made up of every colour under the rainbow, which would likely spend far too much time bickering with itself.

A mix of FF/PD/Ind isn't going to be very stable either. FF and Lab is the most stable government, if Bertie is to be believed *cough* then I think this is a big possibility.

Lennoxschips

prospect wrote:

That is possible, but it does not directly effect my chances of remaining in gainful employment and paying the lowest income tax in europe for the next 5 years.

Low tax, is that what it's about?

Yes, people in Ireland have the highest take home pay in Europe, but also the highest personal debt. So the whole low tax thing is a bit of a misnomer, because it's obviously not helping the people if they are so in debt. Ireland is badly planned and too expensive, so that low tax rate counts for nothing.

In Holland I pay more tax, but life is more affordable and sustainable in general. I have a four kilometer bicycle or bus commute, depending on the weather. I can walk to the supermarket and back. I can walk to the library and back. I cycle to football. The hospitals are world class. Food and drink is way, way cheaper than Ireland. Energy bills are way cheaper. Broadband is faster, more widespread and much cheaper than Ireland. There are special recycling bins for glass, paper, used clothing and biomass in every neighbourhood. There is a big park 10 minutes walk away.

If all that means I pay more tax, then so be it.

Sand

Low tax, is that what it's about?
Yes, people in Ireland have the highest take home pay in Europe, but also the highest personal debt. So the whole low tax thing is a bit of a misnomer, because it's obviously not helping the people if they are so in debt. Ireland is badly planned and too expensive, so that low tax rate counts for nothing.

In Holland I pay more tax, but life is more affordable and sustainable in general. I have a four kilometer bicycle or bus commute, depending on the weather. I can walk to the supermarket and back. I can walk to the library and back. I cycle to football. The hospitals are world class. Food and drink is way, way cheaper than Ireland. Energy bills are way cheaper. Broadband is faster, more widespread and much cheaper than Ireland. There are special recycling bins for glass, paper, used clothing and biomass in every neighbourhood. There is a big park 10 minutes walk away.

If all that means I pay more tax, then so be it.

So youre willing to pay more tax for cheaper services? I.E. less takehome pay, but not charged as much for food, drink and services? I dont see a real difference in outcomes, just a difference individual power over their own paypacket. Individuals get charged more to pay for services they might never use.

Personally, Ill take my chances with the less tax route so I have more takehome and thus more power over my own finances - I walk to work so cheaper public transport doesnt interest me, life is very affordable in terms of food, drink and entertainment - paying more tax isnt going to make it better. I've not been in hosptial since I was a kid so again Ill pay my health insurance and take my chances. Broadband benefited by taxes? The government monopoly told us for years that we didnt want broadband. There are plenty of recycling bins in Ireland - up to people to get off their arses and use them. Theres about a half dozen parks within walking distance of me. I actually cant remember living in an area that wasnt within a stones throw of a park or open area actually.

Let the government use the money it takes from us now in the best possible fashion. When they manage to cut out waste like voting machines they dont study or use, berties makeup, consultants, political junkets, kowtowing to unions in state services and appointing their buddies to state boards and still need some more cash then Ill consider voting for a party that says we need higher taxes to make ends meet. Until then they can go back to the budget and decide if they and their extended family and mates really need to travel to Florida to study the Disneyland resort for economic lessons that can be applied in Ireland. Its the tax payers money, not their bloody lottery win.

Oh and dont say "Oh well thats Fianna Fail - FG/Lab/Greens would never do things like that".

On the RTE 9 o'clock news this evening they were saying that FF placing the PD's + indies as first option was just a tactic to soften up the Green's expectations.

Well, I think Bertie is in a fairly powerful position either way. The Greens might be considered flaky [i.e. principled, a dirty word in fianna fail] and the PDs and independants can be bulied a lot more - the PDs certainly will be in no position to make any demands. That said, given the risk of Flynn losing her seat then the Greens could be the most stable option overall.

Bertie can simply take the best offer from the Greens or PDs/Independants. Even if a group bails down the road, the possibility of swinging a deal with the others would still be open if he plays his cards right. He still even has Labour dreaming of him giving them a ring. Bertie must be purring.

agreed, to be fair any irish gov will have very little control over the economy, they don't set interest rates , money supply, borrowing is limited to 3%. if they raise taxes, people will quiet rightly evade tax.

This is true, I think the most fantastic achievement of the EU has been prying the muppets away from the economic controls they consistently abused and manipulated for short term gains over decades of our history. However, it has to be acknowledged that Labour are the basically the political wing of the trade unions - hence the huge banner hanging from Liberty Hall. With them in power you have the unions representing us, the taxpayers, in negotiations with the unions representing the state employees. Thats a crappy scenario for tax payers and the economy in general.

Lennoxschips

Personally, Ill take my chances with the less tax route so I have more takehome and thus more power over my own finances - I walk to work so cheaper public transport doesnt interest me, life is very affordable in terms of food, drink and entertainment - paying more tax isnt going to make it better. I've not been in hosptial since I was a kid so again Ill pay my health insurance and take my chances. Broadband benefited by taxes? The government monopoly told us for years that we didnt want broadband. There are plenty of recycling bins in Ireland - up to people to get off their arses and use them. Theres about a half dozen parks within walking distance of me. I actually cant remember living in an area that wasnt within a stones throw of a park or open area actually.

Food and drink in Ireland is the most expensive in the EU. You find it very affordable. I take it you're not a single working mother? Ireland has one of the highest average personal debts in the EU. There's a reason for this. Seemingly, a lot of people can't afford to live in rip-off Ireland. In the case of Ireland, lower personal taxes has turned out to be a bit of a false economy.

Your hospital comment is very pertinent.

Broadband in the Netherlands is run by private companies, but the infrastructure it runs on was installed a long time ago. In the late mid to late 90s they dug up the street here to put in fibre optic cable. This has to do with government foresight and good use of public funds. Telecom Eireann was a state run monopoly, the did what they were told. The government decided we didn't need broadband. Now the market is privatised but the infrastructure needed was never put in. Private companies aren't going to invest the money needed to upgrade the network, they'll scrape as much profit as possible out of the current, aging network.

As far as I know the nearest recycling bins to where I lived in Cork city are at least four miles away, at the Kinsale road dump.

Húrin

Lazairus wrote:

A weaker EPA. It is evident that Irish people short slightness is to blame, they obviously don't give a toss,Well F**k them all . Those people who voted FF Will be the ones 50 years time , when half of Ireland is flooded , Why didn't i vote green. I can see it now. To me it seems that Irish people don't appreciate their country .

Most who voted FF will not be alive in 50 years time. As a member of the Green party, I think we failed to get our message out there enough. Yes, some are motivated by nothing by greed, but I think most people do care about their children's future, and do care about Ireland. These people simply need to see that the Green way is a vote for your children and the country.

10-10-20 wrote:

I voted green this time around, but ... if the Greens and FG get in, the country will become a vacuum from the speed that the multinationals leave to avoid the tax hike.

Neither of those parties have a desire to raise corporate tax.

silverharp wrote:

agreed, to be fair any irish gov will have very little control over the economy, they don't set interest rates , money supply, borrowing is limited to 3%. if they raise taxes, people will quiet rightly evade tax.

Evading tax is not right.

brianthebard wrote:

Hang on OP, "the alternative" didn't have a bad election, FG gained a massive amount of seats and labour managed to stay fairly stable. The greens and smaller parties lost out because the electorate obviously don't feel the GP has the policies and quality representatives to go into government.

I would admit that in many rural constituencies the Green candidates were poor.

Sand wrote:

So youre willing to pay more tax for cheaper services? I.E. less takehome pay, but not charged as much for food, drink and services? I dont see a real difference in outcomes, just a difference individual power over their own paypacket. Individuals get charged more to pay for services they might never use.

I take it you favour the American model then?

Sand

Food and drink in Ireland is the most expensive in the EU. You find it very affordable. I take it you're not a single working mother?

Eh no, like a lot of people I'm not a single working mother. I dont see how charging single working mothers more tax would make their food and drink bills cheaper though? Theyd simply have even less takehome pay to spend.

Ireland has one of the highest average personal debts in the EU. There's a reason for this. Seemingly, a lot of people can't afford to live in rip-off Ireland. In the case of Ireland, lower personal taxes has turned out to be a bit of a false economy.

The reason is two fold - low interest rates encouraged borrowing, because it was cheap. Employment reassured people that they can meet interest payments. Again, charging higher taxes simply means less takehome pay to service any debt people may have.

Telecom Eireann was a state run monopoly, the did what they were told. The government decided we didn't need broadband. Now the market is privatised but the infrastructure needed was never put in. Private companies aren't going to invest the money needed to upgrade the network, they'll scrape as much profit as possible out of the current, aging network.

Oh I agree, the infrastructure is a natural monopoly and should have been retained by a state company dedicated purely to that task. However the track record of the government and telecom eireann is complete rubbish, they made a balls of the privatisation to the point where the concept itself has been utterly discredited in Irish politics [despite working in the netherlands]. *None* of the above indicates that if I pay the government more tax theyll deliver better broadband.

As far as I know the nearest recycling bins to where I lived in Cork city are at least four miles away, at the Kinsale road dump.

Thats too bad. My nearest recycling bin is 5 minutes walk away.

I take it you favour the American model then?

The American Model? Are you referring to the complete mess New York City made of its finances from an extremely generous provision of services by the city government, to the point where New York City was minutes from being declared bankrupt? That American model?

There is *no* American model outside of France, polemics and strawmen. Christ, if anything Irelands "stealth" tax model favours taxation on consumption rather than income - something I would have thought the Greens would welcome.

My view of taxation is that the government serves the interests of the citizens, and that it must justify taxation on that basis not simply because it deserves it inherently. Let the government and public services make use of the money they are currently given, cut out waste and mismanagement of *our* money. Let them do that first, rather than simply bumping up tax so they can waste more of it.

I have no particular issue with paying more tax if I can be confident that the government has exhausted all reasonable alternatives and the services are required and neccessary. I simply have no confidence in any Irish government given A) the incompetence of the civil service and government in general and the attitude that its somehow the government money and none of the taxpayers business.

There has never been any evidence of a link between higher taxes and better services in Ireland. And in terms of Health its well known that money has been thrown at the health services and apparently our hospitals are death wards and hell holes. So the problem isnt money - its sorting out the consultants, nurses and structures in place that are contributing to the mess. Let the government sort that out first, then well see if they need higher taxes.

Lennoxschips

The reason is two fold - low interest rates encouraged borrowing, because it was cheap. Employment reassured people that they can meet interest payments. Again, charging higher taxes simply means less takehome pay to service any debt people may have.

But the whole of the Eurozone has the same interest rates as Ireland and there is full employment in the Benelux region... yet these people don't see the need to get up to their eyeballs in debt in they same way the people of Ireland have. Housing, food and services are more affordable, so there was no need rack up the debt. Of course, this is only partly down to paying tax for proper services, a lot of it is also due to decent planning and forward thinking. Something sorely lacking in Bertie's Ireland.

Attractive Nun

Lazairus wrote:

Those people who voted FF Will be the ones 50 years time , when half of Ireland is flooded , Why didn't i vote green.

I can't believe this ridiculous quote has gotten away without so much as a passing comment...

Dr_Teeth

I would have voted Green, but mixed in with sensible policies regarding public transport and co2 emissions is retarded hippy crap like being against zoos, nuclear power and target shooting so I said no. Also, their solution to just about *every* problem seems to involve setting up a new government department/committee/scheme - I think we have enough of those.

paddyman

Green party policies are for some imaginary ideal world which will never exist. Money is the driving force and will stay that way.

Green's need to wake up to this. They have a few decent practical plans like schools/recycling but then **** it up by trying to stop major road building when we need proper fast motorway systems crossing the country, we need motorway ringroads around major cities ETC. Other transport infrastructure like fly-overs or High speed train system's being put underground need to be built where people need them not where some trees would rather them.

They seem to think they can make people not want cars , WTF if didn't want a car i wouldn't buy one. And incase they do know this cars sales and ownership are going to continue to grow in ireland and need to be accommodated for.

Nuclear energy would help Ireland alot with pollution and our dependency on oil but although there is little chance of them been built with current goverment theres no chance with greens.

And will people stop with this crap that Ireland is going to be flooded in 50 years yada yada. we don't even know if co2 emissions from people are responcible for the planet warming yet they want put in place plans that will stifle business, cost the economy billions, reduce our competitiveness in an increasingly competitive global economy where companies will jump ship to easier to work in countries who favor business and the economy.

Im glad they got nowhere, maybe the next generation of green members might wake up to the real world around them.

Jotter

What annoys me is that the irish people made it quite clear what gov they want - FF/Greens. They only voted in 2 PDs so they couldnt have made it clearer that they do not want them back in gov, yet FF are able to go and try get them in?

I know the reasoning is that FF think they work well with PDS but surely the idea of domocracy is that the people choose so it shouldnt really matter what FF think or want. They are the bigger party so surely if the greens were in gov with them and came up with some idea that FF didnt like then it just wouldnt go through? Sure there would be arguments etc but Id prefer there to be a bit of debate rather than the 'yes sir, of course sir, arent ya feckin great sir' that the PDS seem to go on with.

Id also love to see the independants get a chance in gov, I got flyers in the door saying a vote for independents was a wasted vote -dont remember which party, was FF or FG but obviously they were wrong.

I voted FG 1 labour 2 purely bec my local candidates are very good and deserve to get in, think I put greens no 3 then FF but would be very happy with a FF/GREEN gov, would do my nut to see PDS get in, 5 more years of the same crap, I was of the opinion we need a change but wasnt so sure the other parties were up to the job so FF/Green would be enough of a change with some stability imo.

ps. Im a total armchair polititan, pontificating watching the news with a bottle of vino so if im waaay off the mark with my ramblings my apologies!!!

just read the above posts and I agree the greens are a bit hippyish in their ideas and I dont agree with them on everything - deffo we need decent roadways - but thats why I think theyd be good with FF, opposites attract and all that, greens are hippys and FF are anything but. Maybe we might actually get a gov thats got a good middle ground that suits the ordinary folk for a change.

McSpud

Jotter wrote:

What annoys me is that the irish people made it quite clear what gov they want - FF/Greens. They only voted in 2 PDs so they couldnt have made it clearer that they do not want them back in gov, yet FF are able to go and try get them in?

Not sure you got that out of the results. As time goes by seems the result wasa lot more less clear-cut.

The Greens ran a campaign largely anti-FF policies so I think a lot of their votes were anti incumbent. The fact that FF did a clever job of using the PDs as a scapegoat for all their failures hardly masks that.

Bad bad man

Lazairus wrote:

I am sad , because greens and the alternative done, so bad , to me this is really bad.

Cheer up!!! The "Greens" aren't about the environment. They're communists under a more soothing moniker.

The best way to assure the best for the environment is prosperity, for prosperous nations can afford green technology. I haven't seen all communist nations, but the ones I've seen looked pretty trashed.

luckat

Didn't the Greens get the same proportion of the vote in this election that the PDs got in the last one?

Being against nuclear power isn't, as it's so courteously put, 'retarded hippy crap'; it's a long-term view. Storing up the deadly poison of nuclear waste is not a good move for the future of humanity and other animals.

And we don't have an economy at the moment; we have a bunch of crooked builders and crooked politicians with their hands in each other's pockets feeling for what's there. An economy would involve producing stuff and selling it abroad.

Voipjunkie

Bad bad man wrote:

Cheer up!!! The "Greens" aren't about the environment. They're communists under a more soothing moniker.

The best way to assure the best for the environment is prosperity, for prosperous nations can afford green technology. I haven't seen all communist nations, but the ones I've seen looked pretty trashed.

Yeah there communists sargent is so like Stalin it's scary:rolleyes:

Jimoslimos

paddyman wrote:

And will people stop with this crap that Ireland is going to be flooded in 50 years yada yada. we don't even know if co2 emissions from people are responcible for the planet warming yet they want put in place plans that will stifle business, cost the economy billions, reduce our competitiveness in an increasingly competitive global economy where companies will jump ship to easier to work in countries who favor business and the economy.

Yeah, because its going to be so easy to be competitive when oil hits something like $100 a barrel:rolleyes: There are other reasons for reducing our dependency on cars than purely enviromental ones (although I do agree, greens may have to bite the bullet and consider nuclear power).

luckat

At the moment, we're nuttily un-green. I don't know anyone with a solar panel - do know *one* family with a Bord na Mona toilet, which cost a fortune.

Two-thirds of my rubbish by bulk is plastic packaging, which is completely unnecessary, but everything I buy seems to come in three or four layers of plastic and cardboard.

I use the car because the public transport system is so crap (I do take the bus and cycle, have an annual bus ticket - but I still find it necessary to run a car.)

Ireland's dependence on energy would plunge if we really turned our attention and lavish grant aid to proper insulation; solar water heating; heat pumps; cheap, working, timely and pleasant-to-use public transport; wind- and wave-power; municipal composting, etc.

At the moment it's not easy, as Kermit says, to be green.