VOX AC30 - Tube amps help

jamie_jj69

Hi all,

I'm about to buy an amp that will hopefully last me a lifetime. I am not lookin for anythin too big like head+cab, maybe a nice vintage tube amp.... Always i've been looking towards the VOX AC30 due to the reputation and history of the amp. It also has the kinda sound that I'm looking for, that warm vintage tone too - as this suits the type of music I am into (no metal for me thanks). This will also be my 1st tube amp. I currently have a line 6 spider 2 and hate it due to its digital-ness... too processed for my liking even though it has banks full of useful sounds and effects.

The AC30 I'm looking at is around the 1000 euro mark and this is the budget i am looking to stick to - I'm far from professional and am not gigging a whole lot at the min (its just time for a little treat).

So does anyone out there have any recommendations or pointers they could give me about tube amps? or even what models they think might be worth a look at?

Any help or advice at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance
J

Quattroste

Jamie. The AC30 is indeed a fine amp but it sounds like this is for mainly home use. If so, the AC30 is very very loud and really only at its best when cranked. Tube/Valve amps only come into thier own when the valves saturate giving that warm slightly overdriven tone. I would look around before buying one. I have a Mesa Lonestar Special which is a 30watt valve amp but switchable to 15 and 5. Even at 5 watts it is still very loud to use at home (doesn't stop me though )
Have a look at Cornford, Mesa, Orange Tiny Terror. There are plenty of amp makers about. You wouldn't be dissappointed with the AC30 but you way not get the best value from it. My 2c!

vox

Is it an old or new AC30? If not which year?

fitz

If it's one of the new AC30's, it's got a Master Volume on it so Quattroste's point isn't relevant.
As asked, is it a new or old model you're looking at?

judas101

if youre looking for an amp to last you a lifetime a new AC 30 is not it.

the guitarist in my band went through 3 of them in less than a year before trading it in for a fender deville.

if you only plan to use it for home use i suggest a smaller tube amp (theres loads around) as the AC 30 is very, very loud and as was said by quattrosote you only get the best out of them when you really crank them up loud.

Johnny M

You could try a Ac15. but 15W of tube is still loud. heck, 5w of tube is too loud for home use !if you're into vintage sound try a fender pro junior maybe. Or maybe the new fender princeton recording amp (mmm) which has a built in power attenuator.

jamie_jj69

thanks for all the pointers lads, as asked, its a brand new ac30 (with the master volume control) i'm looking at... at the moment i'm not gigging a whole lot, but it doesnt mean to say that i'll never be gigging again so i'll want somethin that will cut it on the live scene too - would 15w be enough to play live with??? i'll definitely look into the other amps mentioned - was actually currently lookin at a fender delux aswell.

i just wanna be sure that i'm getting what i want for the money being spent. again i want to get somethin i'll be happy with, it'll be well looked after and never abused (kinda protective of my gear).

anyone else with any pointers would be excellent... thanks again for all the help.

Voodu Child

jamie_jj69 wrote:

would 15w be enough to play live with??? i'll definitely look into the other amps mentioned - was actually currently lookin at a fender delux aswell.

Depends on what size gigs you play, and how much clean headroom you need. 15watts is certainly very loud, especially though an efficient speaker (or better still a 2x12).

You won't be rocking any stadiums, but it should be plenty for small club gigs unmic'd, and medium gigs with a PA.

I can't say i'd recommend an AC30CC for e1000.

Nozebleed

to be honest the fender valve amps are far better than the vox...i think if you have 1000€ to spend buy the de'ville..and you might even have 200 left to buy a nice pedal or 3.
Soundgear in Dublin,portobello is a great store for fender amps..he's got the best prices and will throw you the odd bit of stuff on the cheap too.

vox

I have owned a Fender Hot rod Deville and an AC30. This is just my opinion but the Vox was in a league of its own.

Paladin

fitz wrote:

If it's one of the new AC30's, it's got a Master Volume on it so Quattroste's point isn't relevant.
As asked, is it a new or old model you're looking at?

Quattroste point is relevant.

While its true the input valves can saturate if a master volume is available, the output valves (the important ones for *that valve sound*) are not saturating unless its up full and you are blasting out the noise.

Quattroste

I wasn't going to bother Paladin but thanks anyway.

Ger the man

Hi,
Im just back into the music scene and did consider a new AC30 but went for a Vox Valvetronix AD50 instead, 50w speaker and about a dozen built in effects. The new AC30's are made in China btw. AC30 has a legendary sound but not so sure on reliability.

Cheers

Ger

Dord

you'd be hard pressed to find something electrical that wasn't built in China these days.

Voodu Child

In relation to the Chinese issue, it doesn't have to be a negative thing, im sure they can make some good stuff...

HOWEVER.....it shouldn't cost e1000. From what i've heard of the construction techniques and materials on the AC30CC, it's about even with something like a Peavey ValveKing.

Which is fine, im sure it won't fall apart, but you're paying a grand for a 500euro amp, and Vox are pocketing the difference. Not great value IMO.

fitz

Paladin wrote:

Quattroste point is relevant.

While its true the input valves can saturate if a master volume is available, the output valves (the important ones for *that valve sound*) are not saturating unless its up full and you are blasting out the noise.

"That valve sound" comes more from the tone stack, which is where?
The pre-amp.

It'll sound better when you're pushing the power valves, no question.
But to say that you won't get a valve sound from a valve amp with master volume is idiocy tbh.

Dord

voodoo_child wrote:

In relation to the Chinese issue, it doesn't have to be a negative thing, im sure they can make some good stuff...

HOWEVER.....it shouldn't cost e1000. From what i've heard of the construction techniques and materials on the AC30CC, it's about even with something like a Peavey ValveKing.

Which is fine, im sure it won't fall apart, but you're paying a grand for a 500euro amp, and Vox are pocketing the difference. Not great value IMO.

I agree entirely, it SHOULDN'T be that much!

Ger the man

Yeah, the price too!

jamie_jj69

yeah i'm still in search, and i'm in no real rush to splash the cash... just getting so many mixed reviews about everythin - gonna test a load of different amps over the long weekend (as long as the hangover isnt too bad) - and about the ad50, havent looked at them yet - is it a tube amp? also not lookin for anythin too digital - got a line 6 spider 212 at the moment - although it has loads of sounds and effects, i'm just not into it... its too processed for my liking. u can get some great sounds and effects out of it, but the effects on amps are worth nothin to me as i have a full pedalboard set up already.

guys again... thanks for all the info, its priceless stuff and great to get pointers from those of u more experienced in dealin with tube amps. all comments are still welcome... the search goes on !!!

Voodu Child

To be honest, based on this:

jamie_jj69 wrote:

I'm far from professional and am not gigging a whole lot at the min (its just time for a little treat).

i'd have to say something like a Cornford Harlequin 1X12 combo would be perfect. It's within your budget, has some fantastic semi-vintagey tones, and should sound great at home.

Paladin

fitz wrote:

"That valve sound" comes more from the tone stack, which is where?
The pre-amp.

It'll sound better when you're pushing the power valves, no question.
But to say that you won't get a valve sound from a valve amp with master volume is idiocy tbh.

You have already displayed poor enough knowledge Fitz. I dont appreciate you equaling that with a poor level of respect.

In case a reader is swayed by ill educated argument I would advise anyone interested in learning about the whole valve argument to refer to countless previous threads on the topic.
There is a good reason why a valve pre-amp (such as Marshall AVT series) doesnt excite musicians or cost as much as valve poweramps (see the Laney LV series for a very good value valve pre-amp SS poweramp package). It is output valve saturation that is the important factor in 'that valve tone'.

fitz

Marshall AVT's are not a pure valve pre-amp. They're a crappy hybridised pre-amp akin to the old valvestates.

I'm sorry, but it is idiotic to suggest that you won't get a good valve tone from a valve amp without pushing the power valves. As I said, you'll easily get a better tone when it's cranked, but it's not completely necessary.

As for whats important in the power amp, it's the power transformer as much as the valves. There are reasons why re-issue Marshalls don't sound as good as the plexis, it's not just about valves.

It's one of the reasons HiWatts have stayed sounding consistently good throughout the years, they haven't changed the quality of the components.

I don't think the reader should be swayed by someone claiming to be well educated when they're making it a black and white issue that's based on a poorly interpreted knowledge.

A little bit of learning....

Ger the man

Im using the AD50 for about 2 months now with no problems, there is a lot of effects to play with and about a dozen pre-amp settings (AC-30 being one of them). I got mine in Musicianinc for 449 euro, I think Perfect Pitch sell them too. Check out http://www.voxamps.co.uk/valvetronix/ad15-30-50-100vt.asp

Quattroste

Fitz, You will get "valve tone" using the pre amp valves but the OP was talking about the legendary AC30. The "AC30" tone, as heard and loved by many, is because of it's power amp valve saturation and not the pre-amp saturation. My point was that the OP would not get this particular tone without volume and with the AC30, quite a bit of volume.

fitz

Again, I have to disagree.
What makes the AC30 so distinctive is the blending of the three input channels. That's what makes it different, that's where the legendary AC30 tone comes from.

I'm not disputing that it'll sound much closer to the classic Vox tone when you push the power amp, but the power amp in the AC30 is not what gives it it's distinctive sound.

The master volume option will give him close to classic AC30 tone at reasonable volume, and much closer to classic AC30 tone when he cranks it up.

I'd be interested to hear how many people on this thread have owned an actual AC30, have really gotten to know one.

Paladin

fitz wrote:

I'd be interested to hear how many people on this thread have owned an actual AC30, have really gotten to know one.

Lol. How ironic you ask that. I spent a year with one taken apart in a CIT lab building a SS o/p stage for it, running THD analysis, Transformer characterisation etc on it. Spent quite a bit of time with my strat and that amp. Really loved it. Almost entirely because of the celestion Blue speakers I figured in the end.
I have the circuit diagram attached that took me days to figure out.

And anyway, to continue correcting you Fitz, I never said you wont get a good valve tone without pushing the output valves. However what you will not get is a *distinctive* valve tone. If you dont overdrive the output, (and you are quite right in mentioning the transformer is important here) than you may as well be using a well designed transistor pre-amp.

As for "making a black and white issue with poorly interpreted knowledge"...

I hate debate that leads back to people arguing on behalf of their credibility rather than the central topic. However I think too many people spend money in the wrong area of their musical setup because of listing to arguments like you made.
Im just home from work where I spent have the day trying to reduce the queiscent current in a class AB output stage and maintain loop stability without increasing on-chip capacitance. I spend every day at amp design, and I learned my trade a long time ago with ****ty marshall practice amps, valve hybrid amps, (I own an AVT275 and an LV300) and I love my time working on valves (half of it was fear of killing myself). If this lends credibility to my advice and saves Jamie or anyone else wasting a fortune then great.

Pay for what you hear, not what you read!

jamie_jj69

gettin very heated in here lads.... becomin more of an interestin topic that i expected... there's a lot to consider alright... i'll be testin out some amps over this weekend and hopefully i'll be closer to makin a decision - wish me luck

Eoin Madsen

Paladin wrote:

Lol. How ironic you ask that. I spent a year with one taken apart in a CIT lab building a SS o/p stage for it, running THD analysis, Transformer characterisation etc on it.

That's lovely. Did you actually play it though?

And anyway, to continue correcting you Fitz, I never said you wont get a good valve tone without pushing the output valves. However what you will not get is a *distinctive* valve tone. If you dont overdrive the output, (and you are quite right in mentioning the transformer is important here) than you may as well be using a well designed transistor pre-amp.

I disagree.

(A) The AC30 preamp is where the "distinctive" AC30 tone comes from. The output is just a textbook 30 watt EL84 push/pull stage.
(B) A lot of amp building guitar players would seem to argue that the distortion of the phase inverter is as/more important to the tone of a cranked push pull amp than the actual power valves - which will happen in an AC30CC as the MV is post phase inverter. Clearly this is subjective, but that's the point really.
and (C) if you've ever spent any time recording amps you'll know that an AC30 still has a very characteristic sound without the output stage cranked.

It's a little ironic that you talk about your amp design experience so much and then go on to make the (bloody obvious) point of people trusting their ears over what they read.

vox

Paladin wrote:

Lol. How ironic you ask that. I spent a year with one taken apart in a CIT lab building a SS o/p stage for it, running THD analysis, Transformer characterisation etc on it. Spent quite a bit of time with my strat and that amp. Really loved it. Almost entirely because of the celestion Blue speakers I figured in the end.

If that is really the case. You have clearly wasted a year of your life

Quattroste

Stop this bickering at once. :mad:

Now go to your rooms until you can behave on a public forum.


Seriously though I find it strange that there is soooooo much of a difference of opinion on amps. I'm no expert at all and I get most of my information from playing and listening. I do not know how amps work(in detail) but I know what I like. I seem to stand corrected on the AC30. I have learned something new today

To the original poster, I apologise as my comments have lead this post astray.

fitz

Paladin wrote:

As for "making a black and white issue with poorly interpreted knowledge"...

I hate debate that leads back to people arguing on behalf of their credibility rather than the central topic. However I think too many people spend money in the wrong area of their musical setup because of listing to arguments like you made.

Well, read back through the thread. You were the first to assert their credibility. And you're patently wrong here.

You're still maintaining that an AC30's distinctiveness comes from it's power amp, so I give up. I know your wrong, other people who know more than me agree, and I just hope the OP takes that into account.

OP: Try out a Custom Classic. Try it cranked, and try it cranked with the Master Volume turned down. I'm sure you'll still get a good tone. If you like it, buy the amp and put some Harma valves in it. That'll take it from a good sounding AC30 to a tonal beast.

jamie_jj69

lads lads lads....

thanks for all the help.... u've all been really brilliant

and the topic was as informational as it was entertaining - i never thought there'd be so much interest in somethin like this - obviously people feel very strongly about the subject - i know damn all about the subject only that i know what i like to hear, just bein my 1st tube amp, i was wonderin if there was anythin i should consider....

and fitz u recommend i swap out the valves to harma valves? do u mean all valves and where is a good place to get em? online? or locally?

thanks again - ur all mad

vox

You get the Harma Valves from watfordvalves.com . Very good people to deal with. If you like the AC30 straight away the sound will only improve the more you break the speakers in aswell.

fitz

Hey Jamie,

Yes, I recommend Harma valves, most highly.
Watford Valves are very helpful, as them what valves they'd recommend for the amp, they'll give you some ideas.
You don't have to replace all the valves at the one time, but replacing them all will give you the a serious improvement in tone over the stock valves.

T

Paladin

Fitz wrote:

You're still maintaining that an AC30's distinctiveness comes from it's power amp, so I give up.

No Im saying if you buy a valve amp you are wasting your money to a large degree if you dont crank the damn thing. Stop falsly attributing things to me! Pre-amps certainly sound destinctive but they are easily made cheaply. See hybrid pre-amps, or SS counterparts. Power valves/transformers/HV supplies are expensive. They offer no benefit if they are not distorting. Why pay for something you are not going to use?

fitz wrote:

I know your wrong, other people who know more than me agree

Good point. Unshakable logic.

Eoin Madsen wrote:

That's lovely. Did you actually play it though?

Yep. Loved it. Only had a practice amp before that so lbig improvement.

(A) The AC30 preamp is where the "distinctive" AC30 tone comes from.

We are not really disagreeing here Eoin, I just think Fits is leading your focus away from what Im saying.
The pre-amp is always one of the main parts of creating a tone. If its the valves in the pre-amp then why are hybrid amplifiers not more popular? I think the AC-30 pre-amp tone is so well copied in various ways and modelled at this stage that its not the pre-amp that causes the AC-30 to continue in its popularity.

(B) A lot of amp building guitar players would seem to argue that the distortion of the phase inverter is as/more important to the tone of a cranked push pull amp than the actual power valves

The audibility of the phase distortion is measurable, but not significant to my ears (maybe to audiophiles) and certainly not defining of a sound.

It's a little ironic that you talk about your amp design experience so much and then go on to make the (bloody obvious) point of people trusting their ears over what they read.

Its funny you say that. It used to be that valve designers and old players said that, because they could rightly hear transister amplifiers sounding crap despite the written evidence of good performance. Thats not to say measured performance is not an indicator, its to say that early measurements were plain wrong. And early vaunted transistor amplifiers had large flaws.

Now the world has turned full circle. The magical properties of a valve are *written* every day in magazines, forums etc. Even when someone cant hear a valve amp sounding better than a transistor amp, they *know* for some magical reason the valve sounds better. This *knowledge* is a multimillion dollar industry.

My overlying point everytime I bring this up is when people are being encouraged to pay a lot of money for a sound difference that is difficult to hear, and becoming harder and harder to justify as being 'better' than the myriad of sound options available today. Hendrix would have creamed himself to get a GT8!

Eoin, you speak of the distinctive AC30 sound. I agree that its a good sound, but do you believe Joe Bloggs in his bedroom isnt being influenced more by hype over a sound than by his ears? How much cash does it take before the difference between your favourite POD XT Live's best tones and a dedicated amps tones is acceptible?
I guess the same kind of influences occur when people are buying anything though

I will finish with a quote from a valve designer that was held in high esteem in the design industry for 60 years, John Linsley Hood (died a few years ago).
Though not referring to directly to guitar amplifiers the truth is they were made exactly the same way.

From "Valve and Transistor Audio Amplifiers", p195

Speaking for myself, as an amplifier designer who listens to the results given by his designs, I know quite well there are audible effects which result from various identifiable and measurable electrical design defects, and measurements on those commercial designs to which I have had access have frequently revealed the presence of uncorrected electrical defects of kinds which I have learned to associate with certain faults in sound quality. However, even when one has trained one's ears to recognize these faults, this recognition may take a little while....
....
I also believe that most of the more experienced Hi-Fi reviewers are sensitive to these differences but tend to greatly exaggerate their importance.

-John L. Hood, 1997

Eoin Madsen

Paladin wrote:

No Im saying if you buy a valve amp you are wasting your money to a large degree if you dont crank the damn thing.

I disagree completely. Even at low volumes most all-valve amps still sound fundamentally different to most solidstate amps, in my personal experience.

I don't know how you can maintain that a valve output stage sounds the same as a solidstate one. A cathode biased EL84 stage doesn't even sound the same as a grid biased EL34 stage, or a 6L6 stage. Even if you've measured the frequency response and found them all to be linear, the timbre is still different.

Hell, I can put an amp recording through enough bands of EQ that an FFT analysis says it's the same thing as a string quartet.

We are not really disagreeing here Eoin, I just think Fits is leading your focus away from what Im saying.
The pre-amp is always one of the main parts of creating a tone. If its the valves in the pre-amp then why are hybrid amplifiers not more popular?

Why isn't Britney Spears less popular? That's not an argument, and it's off the point besides.

Its preamp is what makes an AC30 different to every other 30-watt valve amp. I can't see how you can possibly suggest that the characteristic AC30 tone comes from anywhere else.

The audibility of the phase distortion is measurable, but not significant to my ears (maybe to audiophiles) and certainly not defining of a sound.

You misunderstood, I was referring to saturation in the phase invertor valve, not phase distortion.

My overlying point everytime I bring this up is when people are being encouraged to pay a lot of money for a sound difference that is difficult to hear, and becoming harder and harder to justify as being 'better' than the myriad of sound options available today. Hendrix would have creamed himself to get a GT8!

It's really not difficult for anyone playing to hear the difference between (for example) a vintage Marshall Plexi and a GT8 played into a solidstate amplification system - even at clean levels. I'm quite sure that modelling will eventually get to the point that valve amps are truly redundant, but my ears and my fingers are still telling me that it's not there yet. Not any of the modellers I've played with.

Eoin, you speak of the distinctive AC30 sound. I agree that its a good sound, but do you believe Joe Bloggs in his bedroom isnt being influenced more by hype over a sound than by his ears?

That's an interesting but irrelevent point. The number of people who buy AC30s based on hype alone does not in any way affect the actual sound of the amp nor the validity of the opinion of those who favour AC30s for reasons not relating to hype.

Savman

I'm fairly sure the OP didnt want to hear about phase inversions and tube amp enthusiasts comparing penis sizes. I'd nearly go so far as to say such discussion is off topic for some one looking for basic info and recommendations. So, with that in mind, who'll be man enough to back down first?
:rolleyes:

Paladin

Even at low volumes most all-valve amps still sound fundamentally different to most solidstate amps, in my personal experience.

Well since I disagree with the reason for that being the valve (as opposed to filter/EQ circuit) rather than the transistor, then I guess we are at an opinion impasse

Apologies for off topic discussion, but perhaps someone didnt find us ridiculously egotistic and boring (nobody? oh well)

Just for anyones interest I have linked an mp3 I made for my project (lower res here for size). Half the recording is of the Vox poweramp and the other from my poweramp(SS, discrete components).
The difference is obvious to a trained ear. Even at that its not big

http://www.iol.ie/~cmccarthy/temp/Amp_AandB.mp3

Eoin Madsen

Yeah, we talked about valves vs valve circuits before. I'm not prepared to dispute that one. It doesn't change the point I was making though. Anyhow... that was enjoyable.

See you next time.

cantdecide

i've got a squinty eye AC30 and it sounds great. i did need a rectifier just after the warranty expired. it just turned itself off. i would reccomend them though