paternity fraud

metrovelvet

If a biological father demands a peace of mind paternity test and the mother agrees, but the bio father submits his friend's samples rather than his own, gets the results and then tries to deny paternity can he be sued for paternity fraud?

Gobán Saor

If he does it to avoid paying maintenance its "making a gain by deception" - this is a new offence that replaced the old offence of fraud.

If it's done in comtemplation of court proceedings it's also perverting the course of justice. If he goes on affadavit or testifies to the result in court add perjury to the list.

haz

metrovelvet wrote:

If a biological father demands a peace of mind paternity test and the mother agrees, but the bio father submits his friend's samples rather than his own, gets the results and then tries to deny paternity can he be sued for paternity fraud?

My brother insisted on a paternity test for a child he fathered, the consequence of which has been his complete exclusion from the child's upbringing whilst contributing 1/3 of his salary to the child's maintenance. That was without the deception.

metrovelvet

If he pretends to 100% believe he is the father so he can influence the mother into adoption or abortion and then at five months demand a paternity test while also walking away from her after pretending to be the supportive and loving boyfriend, when the chance for an abortion is over, is there any fraudulance in that - in that he has deceived her for five months so he could influence the fate of a child he doesnt think is his [even though it is] or is it just manipulative and unethical?

haz

metrovelvet wrote:

If he pretends to 100% believe ...

It is impossible to prove what he actually does or doesn't believe, so it comes down to how best to support the girlfriend and child. Legally he can only be judged on his actions and arguing his beliefs or motives is not likely to be helpful. Personally I would take the route I suggested above, that he seems to have demonstrated complete unfitness to be involved as a parent but he is still liable for maintenance. The relationship is over and it is best to manage future interaction to minimise emotional attachment - it will only hurt on past history.

padser

metrovelvet wrote:

If a biological father demands a peace of mind paternity test and the mother agrees, but the bio father submits his friend's samples rather than his own, gets the results and then tries to deny paternity

In this case I would give the bio father 10/10 for effort 9/10 for ingenuity and 10/10 for originality.

To be honest though I would have to agree with Gobán - if he is doing it to avoid maintance he could be brought to court over it. However the much heavier penalty is probably going to come from being made to pay maintance.

Also Metrovelvet on the issue of 'pretending' to care for 5 months I don't see how there is a significant legal issue here. Firstly he had *absolutely* no rights in deciding on abortion/adoption etc etc. Secondly it seems more then a little unfair to suggest that because he initially stayed with the mother that he should be barred from changing his mind later on. Courts can't force peopel to stay together - or penalise them for initially trying to stay together and then breaking up.

metrovelvet

^ Yeah, I just think its a little bizarre to want to terminate a kid you dont even think is yours. Or arent sure is.

Is paternity fraud a criminal or civil offense? Do you get fined or have a record of fraud?

haz

metrovelvet wrote:

Is paternity fraud a criminal or civil offense? Do you get fined or have a record of fraud?

From a lay perspective, and commenting on a hypothetical case, the gentleman is a complete lowlife and if I was the girlfriend I would try to sever all emotional ties to him. There is no offence of "paternity fraud" and what he has done is probably not criminal in any sense, but it is probably (as I think Gobán says) a civil offence - he will not get a criminal record unless he tries to continue a deception in front of a court, but his behaviour will count against him.

Other people *are* bizarre and it really doesn't help to analyse their motives. Is his (or his family's) involvement in the child's future going to benefit the girlfriend or child?

But family court will award maintenance for support of his biological child.

Jo King

metrovelvet wrote:

If a biological father demands a peace of mind paternity test and the mother agrees, but the bio father submits his friend's samples rather than his own, gets the results and then tries to deny paternity can he be sued for paternity fraud?

I fail to see how this can happen. paternity tests usually involve both parties being present or represented while the samples are being taken.
How does the putative father know that the samples were actually taken from the child claimed to be his otherwise?
Equally how does the mother know that the samples are those of the alleged father?

Anyone who attempted to subvert the process could face a number of civil and criminal actions. There would be offences under the Theft & Fraud Offences Act and in a civil action a court may well award punitive damages.

Little CuChulainn

www.board.ie wrote: »

There's more scummy women out there claiming men are the fathers when they're not and then the scum can deny a paternity test and basically leach money off and innocent man. Women like that should be put to death.

Most women are scum anyway and deserve punishment.

You're not by any chance a serial killer are you?

V.W.L 11

A 7 year old zombie thread!jesus...

Santa Cruz

www.board.ie wrote: »

NO, BUT MOST WOMEN ARE CALLOUS MONEY-GRABBING SCUM

Whoever dips the wick must pay for the oil.

The Corinthian

www.board.ie wrote: »

NO, BUT MOST WOMEN ARE CALLOUS MONEY-GRABBING SCUM

Wow. Anger.

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Whoever dips the wick must pay for the oil.

First that guy, now you're claiming all women are prostitutes.

Dr Turk Turkelton

www.board.ie wrote: »

There's more scummy women out there claiming men are the fathers when they're not and then the scum can deny a paternity test and basically leach money off and innocent man. Women like that should be put to death.

Most women are scum anyway and deserve punishment.

Commiserations on being dumped today but judging by your post it was you not her.

Kerryfool

Last year I found out that I am not the father of my 25 year old son, that I paid maintenance for for years. The mother knew at the time of the pregnancy that there had been other men but I only heard that last year, she will not admit to this.
Now the DNA test is done and there is a 0 probability that I am the father, none of the DNA markers match with the son.

I feel like a fool, but dna tests at the time were not so easy to get and I believed her at the time, she just randomly picked me as the father. I feel sorry for the boy who has been told for 25 years that I am his dad, now he is told I am not.
Her family even tried to force me to marry her at the time and I became the black sheep of my own family as they were very religious.
Is this paternity fraud what she did? I feel like a true victim, is there anything I can do against this?

Little CuChulainn

Kerryfool wrote: »

Last year I found out that I am not the father of my 25 year old son, that I paid maintenance for for years. The mother knew at the time of the pregnancy that there had been other men but I only heard that last year, she will not admit to this.
Now the DNA test is done and there is a 0 probability that I am the father, none of the DNA markers match with the son.

I feel like a fool, but dna tests at the time were not so easy to get and I believed her at the time, she just randomly picked me as the father. I feel sorry for the boy who has been told for 25 years that I am his dad, now he is told I am not.
Her family even tried to force me to marry her at the time and I became the black sheep of my own family as they were very religious.
Is this paternity fraud what she did? I feel like a true victim, is there anything I can do against this?

Like what? It's done now. You can choose to keep a relationship with the kid you helped raise or not.

Kerryfool

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Like what? It's done now. You can choose to keep a relationship with the kid you helped raise or not.

Never had a relationship with the kid, was not able to come near him only paid thousands

V.W.L 11

Kerryfool wrote: »

Never had a relationship with the kid, was not able to come near him only paid thousands

Just like I'm doing now,don't women have a great life ffs

Little CuChulainn

Kerryfool wrote: »

Never had a relationship with the kid, was not able to come near him only paid thousands

So what remedy are you looking for?

Kerryfool

Wonder is there any legal action I can take, I am scammed out of a lot of money for years and yes I do have receipts of postal orders, as it was not a payment arranged by court she probably did not declare the income to the social welfare either. After 25 years she contacted me and asked did I want to meet my son, I demanded the DNA test and paid for it I never believed I was the father but out of the goodness of my heart and the pressure from both families I paid her for years.

V.W.L 11

Kerryfool wrote: »

Wonder is there any legal action I can take, I am scammed out of a lot of money for years and yes I do have receipts of postal orders, as it was not a payment arranged by court she probably did not declare the income to the social welfare either. After 25 years she contacted me and asked did I want to meet my son, I demanded the DNA test and paid for it I never believed I was the father but out of the goodness of my heart and the pressure from both families I paid her for years.

did the DNA prove you are the father?if she gave a false declaration then I can only imagine you have a line of action you can take,HOWEVER!!!!! did you put your name on the birth cert more importantly????I have a similar situation at present hence the question

Kerryfool

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

did the DNA prove you are the father?if she gave a false declaration then I can only imagine you have a line of action you can take,HOWEVER!!!!! did you put your name on the birth cert more importantly????I have a similar situation at present hence the question

Proof of the DNA test was a 0% probability that I am the father, I was no biological match, not the father in other words, none of the markers match my ''son'' . My name was not on the birthcert son got mothers lastname father unknown.

V.W.L 11

Kerryfool wrote: »

Proof of the DNA test was a 0% probability that I am the father, I was no biological match, not the father in other words, none of the markers match my ''son'' . My name was not on the birthcert son got mothers lastname father unknown.

She gave a false declaration to the court then,you should speak to a solicitor about your options

conorh91

There is a tort of deceit, with a remedy in damages. I'm not aware of its application in Ireland to circumstances like yours. It would be very interesting.

Little CuChulainn

I would imagine there would be a difficulty in proving she knew you were not the father and deliberately concealed this from you.

conorh91

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I would imagine there would be a difficulty in proving she knew you were not the father and deliberately concealed this from you.

There doesn't have to be knowledge. Recklessness suffices for deceit.

If a woman knew she had sex with other men, and thereafter became pregnant, it would be interesting to hear her explain why she pinned paternity on one guy in particular;

If she did so recklessly, without caring whether the claim of paternity was true or false, then there would appear to be a prima facie cause of action in deceit.

This is mindless speculation, of course. I know next to nothing about this, because it just isn't litigated in this jurisdiction, it seems.

The Corinthian

conorh91 wrote: »

This is mindless speculation, of course. I know next to nothing about this, because it just isn't litigated in this jurisdiction, it seems.

Most likely because it would get nowhere. Given that in Ireland bench warrants are frequently issued for breaches of maintenance orders, while, AFAIK, there has only been one such case for a breach of a maintenance order, one would be forgiven for thinking that it would be seen as a pointless waste of money by anyone contemplating legal action.

The problem with such legal discussions is that they presume that the law is blind and applied equally irrespective of things like gender. Thing is, it's not.

Kerryfool could well sue for damages (not sure why such a clear case of fraud is not treated as a criminal act, BTW), but I wouldn't hold my breath where it comes to getting anywhere. Truth is he should have demanded a DNA test from the onset, if he had any doubt whatsoever and he could not have been compelled to pay a penny until that challenge had been resolved.

Unfortunately, there is a significant level of ignorance surrounding the legal rights of men, be they fathers or cuckolds, and so few know that they can while other times fear the reaction of the mother if they do.

K-9

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

She gave a false declaration to the court then,you should speak to a solicitor about your options

He doesn't state if the dna test was court ordered, plus there was no maintenance order or name on the birth cert, so the child isn't officially his.

The mother accepted this money under false pretenses though, assuming she was aware of the doubt over paternity!

conorh91

The Corinthian wrote: »

Most likely because it would get nowhere.

No, most likely because paternity fraud is probably rare, and the indicia for deceit are even more rarely capable of being established.

Deceit itself is rarely litigated at civil law, so a fortiori case law on paternity and deceit is presumed to be non-existent.

The reference to maintenance orders and bench warrants is also of no relevance here, because this is is foremost a civil issue, presumably relating to the tort of deceit. It would be wrong to ascribe sexist attitudes to the courts beyond maintenance and custody.

not sure why such a clear case of fraud is not treated as a criminal act, BTW

Because my reading of the facts indicates recklessness as to paternity. At criminal law, under s.6 of the Theft and Fraud Offences Act recklessness will not suffice. Recklessness does suffice in civil cases.

Arguably, in the present case, there could be sufficient knowledge as to give rise to oblique intention on the part of the mother. That would meet the criminal test. But the poster seemed to veer specifically towards a civil remedy.

Having said all that…

At one point, the poster said that he never believed that he was the father. If he said that in court, the mother would have no case to answer. It cannot be deceit if nobody was deceived.

FreudianSlippers

You need a solicitor.