is he merging (lol)

ocallagh

2/4 Mansion

History:
Villain is incredibly tight, 14/7 (stats based on full ring), but can be quite creative. He recently moved up to 2/4 and always buys in for half the max buyin. I would guess he grinds out about 6 or 7BB/100 at 1/2. We have played hundreds of hands together @ 1/2 and he would view me as a solid TAG.

The table is 3-handed and we are both clearly after the other guys money and have thus avoided each other till now. I get the feeling he has been avoiding me more than the other way around actually.

1) What are your thought on the limp/call considering stacks?
2) If I limp raise to 40 preflop and he calls, how should I play it? Should I call a shove preflop?
3) As played, should I call the river?

[edited scenarios as I got the bet sizing wrong]

Stacks:
Fish Button ($300)
Hero SB ($470.00)
Villain BB ($180)

Action:
Button folds.
Hero AsKd completes SB.
Villain raise to $12.
Hero Calls.

Flop ($24) [Qs 4h Qd]
Check
Check
Turn ($24) [Js]
Check
Check
River [Ts]

Hero bets $30
Villain raise to $120

Solksjaer

I'll only comment on the river as everything else looks like ok....(in this situation). this is a hard one to figure with so little early action..

If you were him, what would you put you on? If less than a strt it's a call


If i were him Id only push with a hand that beats a strt.

bit of a mad hand......Im not much help am I....

A call is a gamble, logic says a fold, ......(I'm too nosey to fold here though)


If it was Omaha a defo fold...

Captain Tom

ocallagh wrote:

1) What are your thought on the limp/call considering stacks?

i dont like it tbh.i think raising is better and makes the hand much easier to play.i personally wouldnt limp raise here either because i have a pretty wide range for opening in the sb but if you have been seen to limp/fold from the sb then it's fine i guess.

ocallagh wrote:

2) If I limp raise to 40 preflop and he calls, how should I play it? Should I call a shove preflop?

id be inclined to c/fold rag flops.since you are avoiding him im guessing he's pretty decent and wont call off over 20% of his stack preflop with AQ/AJ.this shallow i cant imagine he folds an overpair either.id certainly call a shove less than 50bb's deep.

ocallagh wrote:

3) As played, should I call the river?

i like a fold.i very much doubt he's v/betting a worse hand and if he had air he bets the flop/turn.

cardshark202

I think you can fold this river. At best he has AK here though he will often have TT or QQ or something.

robinlacey

i don't like preflop,i would raise,or if i limped i would raise when he does.

i'd make it 60 preflop if i limp/reraised so you can shove the flop without it being a huge overbet,40 would be awkward given stack sizes.its only a minor consideration though.

as for the river,i think you are better equipped to judge this than anyone else,if you could imagine him checking behind a house/quads twice without wanting to get some money in then its a fold,if not then the only hand that beats you is TT,which means its a call if he ever bluffs.

are the mansion cash games as good as the tournaments?

is there a time of day when there's more than one or two mid-high stakes tables going?

robinlacey

you say be can creative,so he might be able to deduce that you wouldn't have checked a strong hand twice and thus figure he can get you to fold the river unless you have TT or AK (and you're even thinking about folding that!)

ocallagh

robinlacey wrote:

i don't like preflop,i would raise,or if i limped i would raise when he does.

i'd make it 60 preflop if i limp/reraised so you can shove the flop without it being a huge overbet,40 would be awkward given stack sizes.its only a minor consideration though.

as for the river,i think you are better equipped to judge this than anyone else,if you could imagine him checking behind a house/quads twice without wanting to get some money in then its a fold,if not then the only hand that beats you is TT,which means its a call if he ever bluffs.

are the mansion cash games as good as the tournaments?

is there a time of day when there's more than one or two mid-high stakes tables going?

do you think shoving the flop or check calling all in is better if i make it 60? IN regards your 2nd reply (not arsed replying to two!), this is what I thought at the time. What on earth can I call with that I checked the flop and turn with apart from QJ JJ or TT so it is a good spot for him to bluff, and make it look like an overbet value bet?

ocallagh

robinlacey wrote:

are the mansion cash games as good as the tournaments?

is there a time of day when there's more than one or two mid-high stakes tables going?

1/2 seems to be full of a lot of nits. it's very easy to grid out 10BB/100 or so at that level. If you 4-table you will rarely have a problem.

I moved up to 2/4 recently and I found the action a lot looser. There are about 3 or 4 2/4 tables at most times (excluding 3am-9am whre you might be lucky to get 2 tables of 6) The standard is quite bad, and if you avoid certain players I think it's easier than 1/2.

4/8 is active enough with 2 tables available most of the time. From about 20 sessions the standard seems very mixed, with some exceptional players and a lot of idiots. Actually apart from about 20% of the players, I rarely see the same names (i always keep an eye on the 4/8tables as I sometimes sit in if there are a lot of new faces). I regularly see some of the decent 4/8 players with 4k+ stacks.

10/20 never fills.

robinlacey

ocallagh wrote:

do you think shoving the flop or check calling all in is better if i make it 60? IN regards your 2nd reply (not arsed replying to two!), this is what I thought at the time. What on earth can I call with that I checked the flop and turn with apart from QJ JJ or TT so it is a good spot for him to bluff, and make it look like an overbet value bet?

yeah if i made it 60 the reason would be so that its an auto push on the flop,although if i hit an A or K i'd probably check/call/push,or push the turn if he checked behind.

the trouble with thinking it might be a bluff here is that its often tempting to think like this,but the reality is that any line that presumes villain (a) went through a reasonably complicated thought process and (b) acted on it is liable to get you in trouble,and its not like you're getting great odds.i'd certainly be tempted though.

so did you call?

robinlacey

ocallagh wrote:

1/2 seems to be full of a lot of nits. it's very easy to grid out 10BB/100 or so at that level. If you 4-table you will rarely have a problem.

I moved up to 2/4 recently and I found the action a lot looser. There are about 3 or 4 2/4 tables at most times (excluding 3am-9am whre you might be lucky to get 2 tables of 6) The standard is quite bad, and if you avoid certain players I think it's easier than 1/2.

4/8 is active enough with 2 tables available most of the time. From about 20 sessions the standard seems very mixed, with some exceptional players and a lot of idiots. Actually apart from about 20% of the players, I rarely see the same names (i always keep an eye on the 4/8tables as I sometimes sit in if there are a lot of new faces). I regularly see some of the decent 4/8 players with 4k+ stacks.

10/20 never fills.

nice one,i've been making an effort to play on the smaller sites recently,the games are getting tougher all over but the small sites seem least affected,so i might put some money for cash games into mansion and give it a try...

if you wouldn't mind could you PM me the names of the decent 4/8 regulars if you get a chance?

jimmii

1) I don't mind the limp/call as AK is a hand you want to play in position and against a tight player you know you can get him off hands.

2) If you limp raise and he calls then I think you are up against something pretty strong i'd want to hit an A or K to carry on with the hand whereas limp calling means I think I can win the hand without hitting one.

3) I would prefer to lead the flop as if he is avoiding you then he is unlikely going to call without something decent. On the river I would check/call as I think most of the time all players will bet the river after a 3rd check which is an easy call and probably the only way you are getting money out of a worse hand. He could raise you with nothing thinking you are just trying to take the pot but it makes it very hard for you to call. I'm pretty tight and I would raise pre-flop with a wide range and then bet the river after a 3rd check with any two. I think fold is the way to go now.

Hectorjelly

With the flush draw coming on the turn I think he is more likely to have a house than trips so you only beat a bluff. Most tight nits dont bluff that much so I suppose its a fold.

Brayruit

Hectorjelly wrote:

With the flush draw coming on the turn I think he is more likely to have a house than trips so you only beat a bluff. Most tight nits dont bluff that much so I suppose its a fold.

Is it possible to be grinding out a profit if you play that tight without making the occasional well timed bluff. If he is bluffing, representing a house, it is a good bluff in terms of betting pattern and chosen opposition (i.e. someone who clearly knows that he is a v. tight player).

Having said all that I still think its a fold - and wp villain if it was a bluff.

ocallagh

thanks for the replies. I was pretty sure it was a fold, and I did fold. I wasn't happy with the hand from start to finish and was not sure if my line of play was easily exploitable by a bluff on the river. c/call river maybe?

cardshark202

Nah betting is best, he will call with worse straights if he got there and AJ or AT might look you up.

jimmii

He assumes you will bet the turn with a queen and he knows you are tight and he probably feels he can get you off a lot of ok hands with a raise on the river. I prefer check/call with the thinking he is betting this about 80% of the time after a 3rd check. AT might call a bet but AJ would probably bet the turn.

Marq

If you had QQ you should fold, but as you have a straight on a flushing paired board you should call.

Aw no we've been value-bluff-combo-betted!

jimmii

I think you should atleast call with QQ unless they are suited.