Attac Ireland Group - Any potential members here?

balu

Hello,

I'm member of the organization Attac Germany. Attac is an activist organization for the establishment of a tax on foreign exchange transactions. You'll find more information here: Wiki and here attac.org. As you can see there are already a lot of local groups all over europe.

I'm moving from Germany to Galway very soon and I'd like to know if here are any people interested in starting also a Ireland Group.

Would be great!

You should also check out this video regarding G8: YouTube

See You
Felix

leninbenjamin

why would you want a tax on foreign exchange? no offense but this entire country's economy is built on Foreign Direct Investment. for us to impose a tax on stuff like that would be nuts! good luck, but i can't see you having much success here.

Agent J

I have one word for that idea.

Insane.

balu

My english is probably not good enough yet to discuss all these things in English properly but you should read about the Tobin Tax anyway: Click

Maybe this opens your mind.

balu

The main issues covered by ATTAC today are:

* Control of financial markets (e.g. Tobin tax)
* "Fair" instead of "free" trade, via democratic control of the WTO and international financial institutions such the IMF, Worldbank, EU, NAFTA, FTAA, and G8.
* Defense of public goods - air, water, information
* Defense of public social services - like those relevant to health, social services, and social security. For example, it is against the privatisation of pensions and of the health care system. ATTAC has also taken a position on genetically-modified organisms. ATTAC also opposes General Agreement on Trade in Services.
* The struggle to end tax evasion (tax havens) as practiced by transnational corporations and rich individuals
* Sustainable globalisation
* Cancellation of the debts of developing countries.
* ATTAC campaigned against the treaty establishing one constitution for Europe. (Treaty of Rome of 2004).

Agent J

I am familar with the tobin tax and i appreicate your english is good and you would have difficulty debatting it with me. Your english is probably better than my german!

In short, i work with foreign exchange and see how much its wortht to this country. I stand by my point that it would be insane for Ireland from an economic point of view.

balu

Agent J wrote:

I am familar with the tobin tax and i appreicate your english is good and you would have difficulty debatting it with me. Your english is probably better than my german!

In short, i work with foreign exchange and see how much its wortht to this country. I stand by my point that it would be insane for Ireland from an economic point of view.

That's not true. The tobin tax will not avoid forgein investments in any kind. We're talking about 0.1% - 0.25% taxes on foreign exchange transactions. This wouldn't effect the direct investments from other countries to Ireland for sure.

It's all about more control about short-term speculations only. The Asia Crisis or Mexico Crisis were caused by that mainly!

Felix

leninbenjamin

balu wrote:

That's not true. The tobin tax will not avoid forgein investments in any kind. We're talking about 0.1% - 0.25% taxes on currency exchanges. This wouldn't effect the direct investments from other countries to Ireland for sure.
Felix

it would affect the repatriated profits, purchasing of raw materials, sales to markets outside eurozone etc. we're already losing competitivity in some areas, we don't need compound this further, as small as it may seem it would add up and affect our economy more than most imo.

gandalf

More suited to the general politics forum than the General Election one.

balu

leninbenjamin wrote:

it would affect the repatriated profits as they're changed from € to $. we're already losing competitivity in some areas, we don't need compound this further, as small as it may seem.

I don't think any CEO would care about 0.1% in the exchange. He could save much more money in other ways (i.e. if your government just decreases the taxes)

SeanW

Count me out too.

balu

leninbenjamin wrote:

it would affect the repatriated profits, purchasing of raw materials, sales to markets outside eurozone etc. we're already losing competitivity in some areas, we don't need compound this further, as small as it may seem it would add up and affect our economy more than most imo.

Our far-away target is to have this tax for every country. So there won't be any problem for any country. But even if only europe would start, other nations would follow.

leninbenjamin

balu wrote:

I don't think any CEO would care about 0.1% in the exchange. He could save much more money in other ways (i.e. if your government just decreases the taxes)

0.1 when it comes in, 0.1 when it goes out buying materials and acquiring resources, 0.1 in certain markets sales etc. and 0.1 when the money finally goes out again. it wouldn't just hit us once...

besides a CEO that doesn't care about 0.1% aint doing his job too well imo, it all adds up.

and you have no hope in hell of getting a country like ours to agree to it until practically all countries do.

balu

leninbenjamin wrote:

0.1 when it comes in, 0.1 when it goes out buying materials and acquiring resources, 0.1 in certain markets sales etc. and 0.1 when the money finally goes out again. it wouldn't just hit us once...

Even summarised it's almost nothing. And again: It would NOT "hit" only Ireland.

leninbenjamin wrote:

besides a CEO that doesn't care about 0.1% aint doing his job too well imo, it all adds up.

If the taxes are in Ireland lower than are in the rest of Europe he wouldn't care about that. Besides of this there are more factors for choosing a country to invest in.

balu

leninbenjamin wrote:

and you have no hope in hell of getting a country like ours to agree to it until practically all countries do.

True. That's why we need to unite.

redspider

Tax is always a difficult topic and changing tax systems even more so.

I think a tax on foreign exchange transactions could only be set if anything to something very low, eg: 0.01%. Then you need to decide if such a 'barrier' to business is worth it in relation to the tax accrued and the benefits such a barrier may bring plus even if the administation costs of gathering the tax is worth it. Also the real benefits to the economy of Ireland and the EU must be assessed.

Then you also need to determine what is a 'foreign exchange transaction'. Intra-EU transactions wouldnt be according to the EU's free-tade zone, plus setting an EU-wide tax rate for those transactions coming in to and out of the EU is not viable at the present time as we dont have a tax harmonisation ruling within the EU. Thus, you would end up with one or more countries in the EU with zero% 'foreign exchange transaction' tax and the money coming in to and going out of the EU would come through that conduit. So, at the moment, it is not a viable proposal I would think.

Overall, I think it could be useful in time to establish a new Business Transaction Tax, again, set at a low rate, such as 0.1%, so that businesses pay tax on activity rather than profits, which they are always trying to hide anyway. It would require perhaps a 'business transaction register' system, and would only apply for transactions over a certain amount perhaps in a year, although no doubt businesses would split up large transactions to magically be under that amount. Maybe a business with less than 250k per year wouldnt need to administrate the low tax, and transactions less than 1k in taxable businesses would also not be taxed. Thus the minimum tax on a 1k+ transaction made by a taxable business would be 1 euro, and on a 1m transaction would be 1k - just divide by 1000. It would seem like a simple and doable system to me.

I dont know if such a tax however is viable as a full economic study would need to be done to assess the effects of introducing such a tax. And getting economists to agree on something is well, another story.

No-one likes paying tax .... and there are hordes of people across the world employed to beat the tax system. It is tax avoidance but its pc label is tax efficiency or some other such moniker. I think the Roman Empire method of looking at an individual and their posessions, providing an on-the-spot assessment and demanding tax payment in lieu of death, was tough but effective. Ernst & Youngs or their quivalents didnt get a look in, in those times!

Redspider

balu

redspider wrote:

I think a tax on foreign exchange transactions could only be set if anything to something very low, eg: 0.01%. Then you need to decide if such a 'barrier' to business is worth it in relation to the tax accrued and the benefits such a barrier may bring plus even if the administation costs of gathering the tax is worth it. Also the real benefits to the economy of Ireland and the EU must be assessed.

It would be possible to start with 0.01%. And overall 0.01% would be a huge amount. In 1996 (I don't have newer numbers) 80% of all exchanges were short time exchanges (speculations). A world wide tax of 0.01% would bring us $125 billon/year (10 Vgl. Lieven Denys und Bruno Jetin, Ready for implementation. Technical and Legal Aspects of a Currency Transaction Tax and its Implementation in the EU. WEED Working Paper, Berlin 2005, S. 137, 140.) Imagine only 0,01% to solve a lot of africas problems. And who would have to pay these 0,01%? Not you. Not me.

redspider wrote:

Then you also need to determine what is a 'foreign exchange transaction'. Intra-EU transactions wouldnt be according to the EU's free-tade zone, plus setting an EU-wide tax rate for those transactions coming in to and out of the EU is not viable at the present time as we dont have a tax harmonisation ruling within the EU. Thus, you would end up with one or more countries in the EU with zero% 'foreign exchange transaction' tax and the money coming in to and going out of the EU would come through that conduit. So, at the moment, it is not a viable proposal I would think.

That's the question. I would say we should see Europe at once. France and Belgium already tried to get this tax but only if all european countries are doing that. In 2005 Chirac and Schröder suggested the tobin tax again.

redspider wrote:

Overall, I think it could be useful in time to establish a new Business Transaction Tax, again, set at a low rate, such as 0.1%, so that businesses pay tax on activity rather than profits, which they are always trying to hide anyway. It would require perhaps a 'business transaction register' system, and would only apply for transactions over a certain amount perhaps in a year, although no doubt businesses would split up large transactions to magically be under that amount. Maybe a business with less than 250k per year wouldnt need to administrate the low tax, and transactions less than 1k in taxable businesses would also not be taxed. Thus the minimum tax on a 1k+ transaction made by a taxable business would be 1 euro, and on a 1m transaction would be 1k - just divide by 1000. It would seem like a simple and doable system to me.

There should be one tax for everybody on currency speculations (no needful capital). As easy as it sounds. It would make the world a better place. Probably not for us but for most people of the world. It could be easily done by the G8. But why aren't they doing it? The problem is that the third world has no lobby. That's just it.

redspider wrote:

I dont know if such a tax however is viable as a full economic study would need to be done to assess the effects of introducing such a tax. And getting economists to agree on something is well, another story.

No-one likes paying tax .... and there are hordes of people across the world employed to beat the tax system. It is tax avoidance but its pc label is tax efficiency or some other such moniker. I think the Roman Empire method of looking at an individual and their posessions, providing an on-the-spot assessment and demanding tax payment in lieu of death, was tough but effective. Ernst & Youngs or their quivalents didnt get a look in, in those times!

I just think it's unfair to have taxes for you, for me for people who are hard working. People who speculate aren't working. And they don't need to pay taxes for that? Is the Tobin tax insane or the world? Think!

Felix

SeanW

If you just wanted to tax speculators, fair enough but plenty of people have legitimate reasons for using foreign exchange, such as people going on holidays, expatriates and dual-nationals, businesses of all shapes and sizes who need to exchange currency in the course of their business, for purchases, sales, investment and profit repatriation etc.

Also if the EU implemented the Tobin tax, and the U.S. didn't, one would only have to do their Forex there instead of here, and they'd probably keep their business in the U.S. as well. This Tobin tax would need to be universal.

I am also of the view that Africa doesn't need crazy amounts of aid, that a root-and-branch reform of our own destructive and morally indefensible agricultural subsidy systems would do more for Africa by allowing African people to go into farming and decent return, thus allowing poor countries to start actually developing. We could also stop supporting dictators. The Africans also have a role to play, like not supporting financially disasterous megalomaniacal regimes like the Zanu PF reign of terror in Zimbabwe.

DadaKopf

Bali, there *is* already ATTAC Ireland. The website's now defunct. But email ireland@attac.org and see who replies. ATTAC Ireland is definitely in need of revival here.

They recently produced this, though:



Currency speculation destabilises markets, which, in a globalised economy, can affect us just as well as it affects 'far away places'. As a disincentive to the destabilising impacts of brokers, a 'Tobin Tax' would actually contribute to greater market efficiency while at the same time not impinging at all on normal market currency exchanges.

I don't see where the crazy leftist ideology is in this argument that leaves so much distaste in people's mouths. It's simply ideological to be deadset against it. But it's also an economic mechanism that has been promoted by the left, but within the constraints of an already existing, capitalist system.

Oooh, revolutionary. If anything, a TT is a panacea, not a solution. But one that could save lives.

SkepticOne

balu wrote:

* The struggle to end tax evasion (tax havens) as practiced by transnational corporations and rich individuals.

Ireland is regarded as a tax haven location by many due to its low corporation tax and the IFSC. I don't see this party doing well here.

McSpud

SkepticOne wrote:

Ireland is regarded as a tax haven location by many due to its low corporation tax and the IFSC. I don't see this party doing well here.

There are many reasons for multinationals to invest in Ireland but I think at this stage everyone knows low Corporation Tax is a massive incentive. If SF can tell us they don't favour increase in Corporation Tax then there even less room for other looney left parties.

Socialism is dead in Ireland, everyone is middle class now & we all used to working for a living. IMO there is almost no support left for higher taxes to pay the public sector pay rises & no support for hand outs to those that won't work.

balu

Probably you're right. Anyway. I'm currently in Galway and enjoying your pubs and club cuba.

Mission improving the world is to be continued...

DadaKopf

Socialism is dead in Ireland, everyone is middle class now & we all used to working for a living. IMO there is almost no support left for higher taxes to pay the public sector pay rises & no support for hand outs to those that won't work.

I don't see this being the case. It's just many of those voices are silenced. Ireland is, actually, a high-tax country, but tax has been individualised. More and more people are calling for an equitable and transparent taxation system which benefits society, not individuals. Also reform of the civil service, and the clear need for more public servants to be employed to provide services to meet our growing needs.

Even McDowell, champion of the 'middle-class right' believes there's still a 'working-class left'.

Jackie laughlin

McSpud,
It was Marx who theorised a historic mission for the working class as it existed in his time. Even then he struggled to understand why they were not rising up. He was wrong on this but right on other points. Socialism pre-dates Marx and will now have to find answers to the problems created by neo-liberalism. Socialists are serious about the mixed economy.

democrates

Welcome to Ireland balu.

I have a few views on this society which may help you to specialise your general expectations.

People here remember the 1980's, high unemployment, mass emigration, social decay, and fear those days could return.

Since the 1990's we have had property price inflation in the order of 900%. Huge populations can no longer afford to live in the communities in which they grew up and now live far from their places of work. But people are taking that on the chin, for them the key decision driver resulting from the property boom is high mortgage debt. The option of one parent staying at home to raise the children is gone for many, as both parents must work to make debt repayments. Now they depend on having jobs that pay well and desire new opportunities for better jobs so that they can relieve financial pressures and gain a better work/life balance.

The "Celtic Tiger" economic performance has raised some expectations beyond reality. Our 12.5% corporation tax FDI strategy delivers jobs and tax revenue. The costs of decent health care, education, social services, infrastructure etc. must largely be funded by employed citizens through various taxes, the FDI "trickle down" is not a free ride.

Some people have become very rich through business and property, and those of us old enough to have bought our homes before the boom are asset rich, but many people just have better jobs and higher debt, and our youth are often dismayed at their prospects.

So we have discontent, but mostly because people want to do better and have better services. It is accepted that a strong economy underpins most peoples hopes for the future, so people are generally pro-business. In this atmosphere there is little appetite for any proposal that sounds remotely unsupportive of business. That's fair enough.

There is also an ambitious element who fear that the Celtic tiger wealth party could be wound up before they get a chance to join in. Most never will, and there is huge frustration at the prospect of being left out for life. Socialism is criticised because welfare programmes promote a "life owes me a living" attitude with people expecting state housing and handouts for sitting on their backsides, but it's interesting to note that we now seem to have a more extreme capitalist version, people who expect to be rich "because I'm worth it". The psychology reminds me of exuberant juveniles absolutely convinced that they're going to win 'stars in their eyes' or 'american idol' despite having little talent, and losing on reality tv is no guarantee of a reality check.

This mismatch between expectations of wealth for anyone who believe they deserve it and the elitist reality tends to be taken out on those who talk about left wing values rather than on the right wing who propagate this increasingly 'every man for himself' system. Most people here accept this elitism so long as there's a chance they or their offspring can become one of the elite, but there's no chance of being rich if they go with those who say there shouldn't be such a disparity between rich and poor in the first place, who say that our opportunity for wealth should have some limit.

Great macro-economic success and moderate micro-economic improvement are new to the Irish. In time and with experience it's possible views will change on how things could be improved, but that's not guaranteed. If you argue for fairness, expect some to label you as the looney left and discount on that basis rather than deal with your point on its merits. Others remain open minded and receptive.

I support the Tobin Tax. Due to the explosive growth in highly leveraged hedge funds (most of which aren't actually hedged and risk collapse eg LTCM and Amaranth Advisors) over 90% of global currency trades are now speculative, around a trillion dollars a day in pure gambling on the Yen carry trade alone. I recall when these people attacked the Irish Punt, the interest rate on my new mortgage shot up to 15% and our foreign reserves were decimated, so yes I've a revenge motive, but that's not the whole story.

George Soros and Warren Buffet are blue in the face warning of the increasing risk this situation presents of a catastrophic global depression. They don't even know where the risks lie, as WB said "Only when the tide goes out will you discover who's been swimming naked". Nothing within the system acts to constrain it from escalation, it can only be constrained from without. The TT could reduce the risk, the USA will probably reject it like Kyoto as it would interfere with unbridled wealth concentration, but giving up on improvement isn't an option so let's keep the discussions going.

Maybe I'm missing something but I would have thought a restriction on capital flows is the best way to restricit capital flows.

mabor

Hi,
made an enquiry to attac Germany. They directed me to this site. Interested in setting up activities/network of like-minded people in Ireland.
Shall we discuss?
Matthias

Kama

Welcome to Ireland and boards.ie!

The Tobin Tax doesn't need to be universal to have an effect, but you do need a fair-sized bloc, such as, say, the EU.

I've heard Tobin was quite upset it became a Altermondialiste cause celebre, as he meant it as a straight efficiency measure of market regulation to reduce 'frothy' volatility/increase stability, and was a bit upset that the dirty hippy stonechuckers decided to usurp it. It's not the savage restriction on capital flow people seem to be assuming, Soros thinks it would be a healthy measure. Politically, its not a bad time to push a policy which could lead to greater stability, although how the 'cake' would be shared is a huge issue.