[Article] Limerick-Adare service proposed (Green Party)

dowlingm

This is an interesting one - not least in Nenagh who have an open line and can't get a decent service for commuting let alone an hourly one!

http://www.live95fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=82407&pt=n

Could be open next year - yeah right :rolleyes:

That said - commuter to Raheen could be a winner and if it was combined with reopening to Foynes for cargo maybe the SFPC would finally give in and stump up some dough not to mention Limerick County Council.

Transport21 Fan

Raheen should have some kind of rail service. It's like Sandyford down there. Would make a good light rail line. Perfect actually.

and nobody please mentioned Foynes and future rail freight because the truth about what went on there has all come up. There never was a desire for railfrieght at Foynes Port.

Zoney

Heavy rail would make sense as a service starting at Adare, stopping at Patrickswell, Raheen (industrial estate), Dooradoyle (housing between the railway and Raheen proper), and city centre. The bus route (serving more frequent stops along a route further west of the railway) would still need to improve or be replaced with light rail though.

Realistically light rail following the bus route rather than heavy rail service is what is needed most. The Raheen to City Centre and University to City Centre bus routes can't really adequately be served by bus even if they put on more; particularly considering how many more people would use the service if it were adequate. It's mobbed as is with only quiet spells mid-morning and in the evening despite it being a horrible slow unreliable service. It's truly hellish in hot weather, rainy weather, or if you're trying to get somewhere on time. You can be waiting over 45 minutes on a 12 (Raheen) or 15 (UL) minute clockface schedule. The "two buses at once" syndrome is common, just as common is people being left standing at the stop to get the next bus (cue furious rage).

The "bus trams" or double deckers would be a welcome improvement, but would undoubtedly be inefficient with the possibility of still not accommodating increasing demand.

Poxyshamrock

If they were ever to open a Commuter Line to Adare and Raheen, I think it would be a good idea to build a commuter station at the old guinness site on careys road which is just next to the Foynes Rail Line.

To go from Adare to the station platforms would involve alot of shunting or the building of a complete new rail system.

Zoney

Poxyshamrock wrote:

If they were ever to open a Commuter Line to Adare and Raheen, I think it would be a good idea to build a commuter station at the old guinness site on careys road which is just next to the Foynes Rail Line.

To go from Adare to the station platforms would involve alot of shunting or the building of a complete new rail system.

Just reinstate the curve that used to be there. Afaik there isn't any obstacle (as you point out, the old guinness site is vacant), though you'd need a new bridge and embankment. There'll actually soon be more space (e.g. bus turning area) as the bus station is moving to the northern side of the railway station.

Poxyshamrock

Zoney wrote:

Just reinstate the curve that used to be there. Afaik there isn't any obstacle (as you point out, the old guinness site is vacant), though you'd need a new bridge and embankment. There'll actually soon be more space (e.g. bus turning area) as the bus station is moving to the northern side of the railway station.

Hey, can you answer me this? On Carey's Rd where the Bridge used to be it seems very uneven. The Station side of Careys Road is Very high up and the Guinness side is completely flat? how did the track stay level?

Zoney

Poxyshamrock wrote:

Hey, can you answer me this? On Carey's Rd where the Bridge used to be it seems very uneven. The Station side of Careys Road is Very high up and the Guinness side is completely flat? how did the track stay level?

I'll admit that I really don't know. I'm just going on the fact that there was a curve there once, and the land still seems to be free.

DerekP11

The alignment of the Cork direct curve in Limerick is blocked.

Victor

DerekP11 wrote:

The alignment of the Cork direct curve in Limerick is blocked.

By what? It seems relatively clear on googlemaps.

DerekP11

Victor wrote:

By what? It seems relatively clear on googlemaps.

Nearly forgot to get back to this particular topic.

Victor,

The Cork direct curve in Limerick is actually blocked by, wait for it..... a CIE sports and social club. You'll notice one bridge abuttment on one side,(on a street close to Limerick station) but on the otherside the abuttment has been demoilished and a driveway built into the club.

Sorry to pee on the picnic.:D

Poxyshamrock

Aren't the Greens in Power Now? :rolleyes:

I might give Trish Forde-Brennan a buzz

Zoney

DerekP11 wrote:

The Cork direct curve in Limerick is actually blocked by, wait for it..... a CIE sports and social club. You'll notice one bridge abuttment on one side,(on a street close to Limerick station) but on the otherside the abuttment has been demoilished and a driveway built into the club.

That explains why it looked clear on the ground too, not withstanding the height difference either side of the road. The driveway isn't well paved, that's for sure.

corktina

jeez ....not more waste of money on railway lines.

Slice

jeez ....not more waste of money on railway lines.

Sorry if this needs to be pointed out but what other wastes have there been on new railway lines?

corktina

transport 21 provisions for north of Claremorris/Tuam/Athenry/Ennis..(delete as applicable)

John R

I am sick to death of all the demands for new railway lines when current ones are let rot with ancient infrastructure and useless services.

Instead what is needed is a proper commuter service on Limerick-Waterford and Limerick-Ballybrophy.

Frankly if a line that serves Tipperary, Cahir, clonmel and Carric-O-S cannot generate significant commuter traffic into Limerick then any other commuter line is pointless. It would cost a fraction of opening a new line and could be done in months not years.

The problem is the headline "politician succeeds in improving rail services on line X" is not nearly as good as "politician succeds in opening new rail line" so all we get is demands for new lines ans SFA backing for actually using the railways to offer proper services.

corktina

hear hear

dermo88

Its nothing new. The amount of time, newsprint and paper spent and dedicated to old branch lines, and potential reopenings since Dr Andrews sent the boyos from West Clare and West Cork packing home in their Hillman Hunters and Triumphs in the 1960's would easily pay for a few rebuilds.

Its why I have an axe to grind against people who want to reopen more, when the existing stuff is not fixed. Fix whats there and not working now, build a business case, and then move on to the next priority, and the one where you are likely to succeed.

But, lets look at this side of the argument.

I see something unsustainable in Ireland, if we do continue down the continuous roads route. We can continue to build roads, and play catchup, but for the long term future of the Irish economy we have to change.

The whole idea is capacity expansion solutions that are sustainable in the long term, and Iarnrod Eireann are beginning to do that. It could take 5 years, it could take 10, but its going to be done.

This means mass transit in our cities, out as far as a radius of 60 miles.

Buses that feed rail on the short haul, trains handle the long haul, Luas handles whatever is in between.

The roads lobby is dangerous to rail and public transport. They use propaganda that roads alone create economic benefits, and rail is a bottomless pit. Its taken over 20 years for that argument to be dismanted, and while we are playing catchup on roads, rail is still not effective enough. In many cases, too slow to win the race, too expensive to use enough.

They use the argument that rail is a moneypit. Its a moneypit when its not used correctly. It has to be used intensively to work well. Its also got to be fast.

The Exchequer is addicted to the excise duties on cars, on petrol and tolls, on the taxes generated by roads. They are like a Cocaine addict when it comes to this source of revenue. It provides instant gratification, and its the dependency on the cash syringe of petrol, cars, tolls, road construction and the returns on them that keeps the exchequer figures in a relatively healthy condition.

Consider that in the Neo-con economies to which we share the most similarities, over 21% of family income goes on travel. Many are working an extra day a week to keep a car on the road.

We are changing, but it takes time. Now, lets have a look at Scandinavia, Northern Europe, Hong Kong, and Singapore. How much income goes on travel in their major cities.

4%. A fraction. Over a lifetime, thats the price of a decent house. You could talk to a Bank Manager and use that alone as an argument for purchasing a house next to a decent transport link,

Option A. So we can have one person travelling around in a one tonne imported metal box, for a few hours a day, and that imported metal box lasts five years before its sold or scrapped? Its cost petrol, insurance, loan repayments, VRT, VAT, Road tax.

OR

Option B. We can have 72 people travelling in 40 tonne imported metal box that lasts 30-40 years.

The initial startup costs for Option B are horrendously high. However, the Department of Finance has a rolled up 50 Euro note, and has chopped himself a nice line. He wants Option A.

Snort.......

He keeps snorting.

Ahhhh......YES......YES......That feels so so good.

Eventually, he cops on, after his circulation seizes up, and all his Option A pals are stuck in traffic jams, and losing their tempers. He goes into Rehab. The doctors prescription.

A lot more Option B. But its a bit late by then.

The doctor says, "You can have cars all the time when you are in the countryside, but in the city, lay off the cars, and have trains.

Victor

In fairness, new rolling stock is coming that will free up mis-used suburban stock that can be re-deployed for suburban services. Indeed older intercity stock that is still in good condition can augment peak services.

Zoney

Ah come on - focussing on Limerick-Waterford underuse as an excuse for not opening other lines is a red herring. For one thing, less people travel the N24 than the N18. Both to the Northwest, West and soon the East of Limerick there is dual-carriageway (mainly due to commuters). What do you know, there isn't on the N24, and it doesn't need it either (mind you it could do with a less dangerous GSJ on the southern ring road than the diamond junction there at the minute, and of course better road quality, 2+1 for capacity, etc).

Don't get me wrong, I do think it should be possible to better use Limerick-Waterford, but the local lobbying isn't there, and it isn't as important as say the Limerick-Galway corridor.

dermo88

However, on the other extreme of the road based charlie addicts, there are the rail based charlie addicts. Just as bad, just as lethal, possibly worse.

Now......we don't quite have a Jeremy Clarkson for rail transport enthusiasts, but if I were to pick one, it would be Michael Palin. Maybe we need one......but all that in good time.

Rail advocates have a slight image problem, due to its perception as an anorak pastime. This means those who want rail to succeed have to play dirty at times, and make sure that clear, undisputed logic wins the game. If not, we'll get mocked. I don't take the piss out of Brian Guckian for the love of it. Hes probably a decent chap, but hes stuck in the dark ages on rail based solutions.

So when rail is advocated as a solution, we have to look at the hand dealt.

DART......4 Aces
Luas.......Straight Flush
Midleton commuter and Cork Rail Plan, 3 Aces, 2 8's (Full House)
Link to Dublin Airport.....3 Jacks
Waterford to Limerick, Pair of 10's, but if you discard 3 of the bad hand dealt, you might get a winner, 3 of a kind or a 2 pair. Then gamble.
Western Rail Corridor.....2 Lemons and a Strawberry.

Zoney. Fix whats messed up first, then move on to the next one. Its common sense. Adare can be looked at later. As regards Limerick, Adare is the third or fourth in line for development.

(a) Extra stations and loops on Limerick to Ennis.
(b) Extra stations out on the Nenagh line.
(c) Double track Limerick to Limerick Junction.
(d) Adare commuter.

Zoney

dermo88 wrote:

(a) Extra stations and loops on Limerick to Ennis.
(b) Extra stations out on the Nenagh line.
(c) Double track Limerick to Limerick Junction.
(d) Adare commuter.

I agree with your prioritised list - I fail to see why that requires derision of any mention of (d). Let's say we don't mention d - but we still don't get a to c either? Mentioning d isn't going to make a to c less likely, but if we don't get them we potentially still get d (due to the inscrutible decision-making processes of the powers that be).

I refer to the roads-related thread on which interurban will be finished first. It could potentially be the route to Waterford. Now lets say no-one in Waterford had lobbied for it. Most likely we'd still have the other routes behind schedule, and be less a route to Waterford *as well*.

I hope I've explained what I'm getting at. There's no point pretending things are done right in this country, and as a result it's perfectly sensible for people to argue for what they want. There's kids wouldn't have schools but for that. Sure some places have got a school after lobbying when other places needed them more, but if the former hadn't lobbied and so didn't get their school, the latter still wouldn't have their schools either.

dermo88

To a degree, zoney, I agree.

There was a touch too much of the Sir Humphreys on that post. I found it difficult to dissect. Either its stupidity or a lack of understanding on my part, or you've got some tips from watching repeats of Yes Minister. In which case, congratulations.

There is a need, but there is so much money in the pot. I have bad memories of the road network in Ireland, before the Celtic Tiger. My memories of the rail network are just as bad. My fear is that the advances made by the road network could be so good that they will take away the market share and whatever competitive advantages the rail network has.

I acknowledge things are'nt done right in Ireland. Thats because we have only been prosperous recently. Its because we have had all these grandiose ideas on paper, and crayons on maps for megaprojects.

People are entitled to lobby, but the resources should go where they cause the benefits and impacts fastest. They should go where there are true problems, as opposed to perceived problems.

There are worse places than Ireland however.

dowlingm

dermo88 - the so much money in the pot argument only works to a certain extent since the development charges came in. The WRC is more or less entirely dependent on State capital because they can't or won't provide the density and thus the matching funds.

Also point (b) needs to read "refurbish and grade separate/automate the Nenagh line" given that its biggest achilles heel is speed restrictions rather than stations and the shale trains hammering away at the track. Connecting service to UL/Plassey via the existing Castleconnell station or a halt near the N7 junction with the ring road is a must I think.

Castleconnell and Birdhill actually seem quite suitable for development to my mind given that the road and rail run near parallel - a railway station in the middle of nowhere doesn't see much custom (Woodlawn for example). Ideally you'd see some northbound commuters too but Nenagh seems to be under pressure with P&G going.

Patrickswell and Adare probably still have some developable land given the increased density a railway station would permit, and in Patrickswell's case it might service the racecourse in conjunction with a shuttle.

At Raheen space looks tight for the actual station but maybe decking over the N20 embankment could make it work. Might be issues with noise as it looks like houses have been built right up to the line - yes, they should have known there was a possibility but the appeals to ABP and the courts will delay the project so IE need to get out in front of them.

The next questions are do you stop there or keep going to a P&R at Rathkeale next to the N21 and terminate there? What about the Mungret branch - what does the City Development Plan have to say about that area and would it be worth sending a few services down there to bulk out the case for the direct curve? Looking at it in Google Earth there seems to be a lot of work to do to get that back.

However, zoney, dermos argument does make sense in that IE only employ so many engineers and it seems that the Transport bureaucrats seem to be assessing projects mostly in serial rather than parallel. I think some platform work might be needed at Limerick Station too if I recall correctly in order to handle more services. Of course if the Nenagh alignment was refurbished for higher speeds some Dublin-Limerick services could go that route and thus serve Nenagh/Roscrea.

What's needed is for Limerick City and Clare, Limerick and Tipperary Co. Councils to combine and put forward a unified front with IE for points a-d and have them treated as a combined project.

Zoney

dowlingm wrote:

Patrickswell and Adare probably still have some developable land given the increased density a railway station would permit, and in Patrickswell's case it might service the racecourse in conjunction with a shuttle.

Development of hundreds of planned houses/apartments at P'well has been held up because shock-horror, a larger primary school would be needed, a secondary school would be needed, increased sewage capacity would be needed, local retail development would be needed, realistically some sort of recreational facility, and yes, really it would be best if the railway was open to passenger traffic.

Nobody wants to pay for any of those things, so thus far, no more houses (wonders will never cease). The usual modus operandi in this country, by contrast, seems to be the houses getting built, and then maybe in a decade some facilities. No doubt someone's arm will eventually be twisted enough and these houses will be built in P'well, without any of the facilities that have been deemed necessary thus far. Maybe after another decade there'll be hopes for getting the railway station opened on the basis of thousands more people living there and massive traffic problems coming into Limerick. Reactionary rather than proactive as usual.

dermo88

really it would be best if the railway was open to passenger traffic.

Unfortunately zoney, when I see a statement like that, amidst all the other clear inadequacies in the urban planning of Adare and Patrickswell, I am forced to question your arguments. There are other issues, transport is just one of those. The other issues are Health, Housing, Education, Transport, Law and Order. Transport is a bit down the list on the priority list. It belongs in there, make no doubt about it, but in a semi rural area, its not as high a priority as it is in Cork and Dublin, Belfast, Navan etc. A railway will not solve the problems in Adare and Patrickswell. It might help, but it is not even 40% of the solution to the problems, its probably less than 5%.

This is symptomatic of the malaise facing railway advocates. It is also why it has taken so long for the advocates of rail transport to be taken seriously. This is why there was a divorce between IRN and Platform11 5 years ago. One group was divorced from reality, so a divorce had to take place in order for realistic projects to go forth and succeed.

Nobody wants to pay for any of those things,

We pay enough. We pay already. Petrol taxes, booze taxes, fag taxes, VAT, VRT, CGT, DIRT, TV Tax, Environmental taxes, taxes on taxes, travel taxes, ATM taxes, credit card taxes.

Because we are told that if we pay taxes now, we'll get something later. We were told that with DART in the 1980's in Tallaght, and that was some 419 scam I have not forgotten.

The usual modus operandi in this country, by contrast, seems to be the houses getting built, and then maybe in a decade some facilities.

Yes, I saw that in Tallaght in the 1970's and 1980's. There was some in Limerick, and if you did not have a car, it was dreadful. But Tallaght waited decades for its rail link. For spite, the west will wait a lot more. The Northside of Dublin has none. Nor does Navan,

If you are going to live in a rural location, in an area with dispersed population, then there are sustainability issues. You may get a lower nominal property price, but the transport costs over a lifetime will be a killer. They'll amount to the cost of the mortgage itself over 25 years. Naturally, the ideal solution would be Iarnrod Eireann where the densities are in place, but its not happening yet. I notice with some concern that Sixmilebridge and Cratloe are not getting stations on the Limerick to Galway service, BUT Ardrahan and Craughwell are. That seems a bit strange in my eyes.

Cork has done sterling work in getting the planning right, and as a result, the Cork Rail plan is being implemented. But it has taken much longer than it should, and it did not get the credit it deserved for being proactive.

I like trains and railways as well, but its a solution that must be applied in the right places. Otherwise its just going to shunt dead air at low speeds so enthusiasts can take photos, and ride it on their holidays from the UK, US and elsewhere.

Zoney

dermo:

If we are paying enough taxes (and I do believe we are), why do we have such rubbish services? Why can't the government allocate enough public funds for vaguely useful things like schools and sewage treatment?

The railway link is listed last in my post - and I can assure you no matter my transport interest there's nothing in the entire field of transport that I consider more important than other areas like healthcare, education, law and order. It's not like that's some sort of reason to censor all debate on less important matters like rail links though, or ignore the impact that they do have. However, I didn't vote for anyone based on their transport policies I can tell you that for nothing.

dermo88

Limericks problem is actually down to local government, and its because its stuck between three counties. Theres not going to be a unified approach to solving the problems in the region as a whole when you've got a bit stuck in Clare, some in Tipperary, and some in Limerick, and the city of Limerick itself. I think you hinted at that earlier. You did have a good suggestion before that advocated the abolition of local authorities for that reason, if I am not mistaken.

Therefore, I will edit my post to a milder form, and concede that I did indulge in some hyperbolae for dramatic effect.

I will also agree that from a transport perspective, its the best city for rail transport development outside Dublin and Cork, due to the fact that all the old lines are still in place. One is being developed (Limerick to Ennis), a line which effectively came back from the dead, and we have to thank the hard work and dedication on the part of the railway staff at Ennis who refused to let it die, and pushed for its development.

Public services are poor because its always a case of inadequate resources. I do not advocate pure privatisation as a panacea.

Zoney

dermo88 wrote:

Limericks problem is actually down to local government, and its because its stuck between three counties.

Indeed. I would argue it's up to central govt. to sort out the mess and take those to task who are mucking about down here. At this stage, I do not really care who they abolish, expand or merge. Just get the city under one authority would be nice! They've had several decades - but I guess it's easier not to ruffle feathers and cause a scene.

Anyway, whatever about the case for the Foynes line reopening if planned development goes ahead, I genuinely do not consider it remotely on the same level as needed rail services in Greater Dublin, despite speaking for the former on occasion. In fairness, it's not like I am *mostly* talking about the WRC or whatever - mostly I'm discussing other subjects (indeed I probably discuss road developments rather than rail these days - simply because there's more going on and more to discuss!)

Victor

dowlingm wrote:

dermo88 - the so much money in the pot argument only works to a certain extent since the development charges came in. The WRC is more or less entirely dependent on State capital because they can't or won't provide the density and thus the matching funds.

Its not just money - but the construction and railway engineering resources that the money represents.

Thomas_B

Rail to Adare is...to put it mildly...a bit of a silly idea.

Flicking through this week's Limerick Leader gives some clues:

1. An article about how county councillors are aghast at the restrictions against one-off housing, and how they are discussing various options to get round the restrictions in the County Development Plan (actually, I think that was in the Post)

2. Article on the regeneration of the city centre, noting that Limerick is very rare in that the commercial rents in the suburbs are more expensive than those in the city, unlike most other places

3. News that a 65 year-old woman was knocked down and killed by a car whilst out for a walk -- seven years after her son was killed in a car on the same stretch of road

Residents of County Limerick are quite happy driving around in their Hyundai Santa Fes and Toyota RAV4s. Despite the obvious social consequences in not allowing their kids outside the front gate without being surrounded by 2 tonnes of steel and 16 airbags, nobody I've talked to seems to mind so much.

The Green Party -- whose great idea it was to try and rescue this line from Johnson's Railway Gazetteer -- found exactly 969 people in Limerick West to agree with them -- despite running a fine candidate in James Nix (he co-authored the book Chaos at the Crossroads with Frank McDonald). Zoney: you yourself admitted that you didn't vote based on transport issues.

A few other points about an Adare-Limerick rail service

1. The bus would be faster, and goes every hour as it is
2. Nobody used the bus until a few years ago (I was often the only person getting on at Adare) -- now it's better frequented as there has been an influx of people to the town who don't mind/can't afford to get the bus
3. When the tunnel is completed Limerick will have a top-class road system
4. The population of Adare village hasn't changed that much in the past 20 years. What has changed is the explosion of one-off housing in a five-mile radius. Good luck trying to persuade these people into a noisy, bouncy 29000 railcar
5. The political system in Co. Limerick is implacably opposed to any development of its towns and villages that would encourage population centres able to support a rail line.

I could go on and on. At the end of the day I think it's dangerous to view rail lines as a panacea for unsustainable planning and development patterns. Until we can convince people in rural areas like Co. Limerick that it's not the best idea to build a house where you can't walk to a shop, pub or school, or even outside your front gate without risking your life -- then no amount of light or heavy rail is going to solve that very intractable problem.

In Dublin, people support better public transport because they think it'll enable them to drive into work quicker. In Limerick, even that level of pathetic enlightenment seems to elude us.

This is, after all, the county where a TD was convicted of tax evasion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_(Limerick_politician) -- which didn't seem to bother the electorate so much, as they elected his nephew (with the 9th highest vote in the country) to replace him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Collins


Ain't democracy a bitch?