Tara still under threat

joseph dawton

Yesterday the 22nd of May 2007 saw the contractors forcing the double toll road through Tara Valley with a vengeance. After three days of blockade by the protestors at the gates of the machinery compounds that stopped the destruction work - things suddenly changed. A massive amount of machines and personnel began to push this unwanted road. The Campaign to Save Tara group stood in front of the diggers, blocked the gates and tried to stop this destruction of our culture by putting their bodies in the way of the machines. The protestors were attacked and beaten by the workers while the Gardaí looked on - this event lasted 12 hours. - please help if you can, mass protest is needed!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tara-protesters-block-depot-to-halt-road-works-681932.html

scorplett

joseph dawton wrote:

Yesterday the 22nd of May 2007 saw the contractors forcing the double toll road through Tara Valley with a vengeance. After three days of blockade by the protestors at the gates of the machinery compounds that stopped the destruction work - things suddenly changed. A massive amount of machines and personnel began to push this unwanted road.

I find your loaded language quite inappropriate Joseph.
destruction work etc...
Also, there are a great many residents who do wish for the road to go ahead. Maybe and preferably not over the current chosen route, but the MAJORITY of residents do want the road to be built. There are many who really don’t give a toss what route is chosen for the road they are just sick and tired of 4-6 hour daily commutes with the only option to get to Dublin being by road.

joseph dawton wrote:

The Campaign to Save Tara group stood in front of the diggers, blocked the gates and tried to stop this destruction of our culture by putting their bodies in the way of the machines. The protestors were attacked and beaten by the workers while the Gardaí looked on - this event lasted 12 hours. - please help if you can, mass protest is needed!

I have provided physical protest many times over the years and at places much less likely to be nice.
The fact of the Gardaí looking on and doing nothing is actually a blessing to such acts of protest. That is as much as any police force can do to support such an action. The Gardaí could have arrested every last protestor if ordered to do so, or as they see fit to interpret the law, but they did not. In such a situation this is in fact a supportive gesture.
Any individual who uses their body in protest (and standing with a placard qualifies as this too) If you are blockading or anything of that sort, you MUST understand the consequences of those actions.
If by using your body to blockade you expect just to have workers stand there and say 'oh well Jack, I guess we can't do anything now', and go home. As unlikely as it is for you to do this, it is just as unlikely, if not more so, for the workmen. They have motivations that are more primal for being there and carrying out their work.
You have to accept responsibility for putting your body in such a compromised place to expect that attempts are made to remove them. Any protestor who does not accept this should not be an active protestor.
There are many groups and individuals opposed to the current construction route and none are working towards the same goals or by the same means.
As an individual resident of North Meath, I do what I can do and how I see fit which for now does not include supporting any of the number of faction groups who to my eyes all seem to be vying to be the ones who can say 'look at me, I saved Tara' .
I don’t believe Tara needs saving apart from maybe being saved from all the people who want to 'save tara'. I see protest groups doing far more damage and prompting the authorities into closing Tara itself off except for guided tours. It has happened many times before at many sites and that is what Tara needs to be protected from.
The road does not directly endanger Tara and focus is in the wrong place.
There should be two objectives at this point, regardless of if the route changes or not. 1) That the Lismullin site is preserved and kept in state care for the benefit of all the people of Ireland and 2) that the lands around any roadway are not rezoned and are kept as agricultural areas or as SAC's etc.
Good luck standing up to your bulldozers though!
And by the way... How do those bulldozers building the road destroy our culture? culture is not as tangible as that.... surely you mean history, heritage or something like that. Because if I'm not mistaken it is the 'Heritage (amendment) Act' that is allowing this not any cultural bill.

joseph dawton

As it happens I didn't write that, I posted it on behalf of Con Connor who is a druid actively involved in the campaign.

As for the Gardai, they could have arrested the contractors for actual and grevious bodily harm if they had wanted to. Protestors like anyone else have a right not to be assaulted.

I can understand that people would like a road, there is a bypass going near where I live which is not passing through anything of historical or cultural significance, it is due to open this summer hopefully. The point is that the M3 can be put further away from the historic remains, which are still part of our culture as Tara remains in use for ceremony and is very much in the public consciousness since this issue of the road arose.

It strikes me that instead of responding to the core of the message which is 'people are being assaulted defending Tara, please help' you decided to pick it to pieces, looking to give me another tongue lashing like on many previous occasions. I cannot understand why you are always so negative towards me, what harm have I ever done you?

Nevyn

If those were not your words I would suggest you cite your sources tbh Joseph.

Personally I don't think protestors in the ground will help the situation.
The amendmend to the hertiage act needs to be repealed and only sensible grown up political lobbing and creating an awareness will do that.

Nevyn

This group seems to have a clue but thier grasp on history seem a bit shakey.

http://www.youtube.com/v/PtdK6ytIBg0

scorplett

joseph dawton wrote:

As it happens I didn't write that, I posted it on behalf of Con Connor who is a druid actively involved in the campaign.

If you are posting something that is from someone elses pen it is common practice and plain decent to give that credit. You did not, you presented his words as your own, and you as a writer should know that. I believe Con Connor has his own boards.ie account and from the regualrity of his posting on his own website and indiemedia, I would imagine him perfectly capable of displaying his own words here.

joseph dawton wrote:

As for the Gardai, they could have arrested the contractors for actual and grevious bodily harm if they had wanted to. Protestors like anyone else have a right not to be assaulted.

If you feel personally attacked now... Then dont get into a legal argument with me. Unless you are a senior council, I doubt you would want to go there...
Take that as my being nice!

joseph dawton wrote:

The point is that the M3 can be put further away from the historic remains, which are still part of our culture as Tara remains in use for ceremony and is very much in the public consciousness since this issue of the road arose.

I am quite aware of this, as have hundreds of other people who have for the last number of years been quietly beavering away getting actual results through responsable means. Being a resident of the boyne valley I am well aware of the myriad of uses that Tara serves to all who visit, including those like myself who go there for spiritual purpose, which in fact is the primary motivation for how I conduct myself in these matters.
I also beg to differ whith your comments about Tara's being in the public conciousness. That has been there long before the road issue arose, and in fact, the general public's view has changed with regard to ceremonies being held there since protests began and unfortunatley is less positive than it was in the 90's for example.

joseph dawton wrote:

It strikes me that instead of responding to the core of the message which is 'people are being assaulted defending Tara, please help' you decided to pick it to pieces, looking to give me another tongue lashing like on many previous occasions. I cannot understand why you are always so negative towards me, what harm have I ever done you?

This is an issue centered thing. I have my strong views on many things and the shambles of 'Save Tara' campaigners have been a cause to get me ranting on a reguluar basis. This is an issue based matter and even my best friends would be challanged to a debate or made listen to a rant if they bring up issues that are important or contentious or whatever... So what makes you think you are so special to have recieved my specific attentions? Or are you so insecure that when someone holds views different to your own that you feel personally attacked...
You seem to be surprised that not all pagans sing from the same hymn sheet. This is either very nieve, stupid or ignorant.
This is not personal, it is a topic dirven debate.
I suggest you grow a thicker skin than that.

joseph dawton

The purpose of the post was to try and drum up support for opposition to the road being forced through. Con asked me and others to publicise his original request anywhere likely to achieve that.

I'm not really interested in continuing arguing about minutae, I am more interested in actually trying to make a difference to what is actually happening.

Talking is easy, it doesn't require people to actually get practically involved in making a difference. Direct action works, the legal route must be pursured, but if you want to wait for legislation it will be too late!

scorplett

joseph dawton wrote:

The purpose of the post was to try and drum up support for opposition to the road being forced through. Con asked me and others to publicise his original request anywhere likely to achieve that.

I'm not really interested in continuing arguing about minutae, I am more interested in actually trying to make a difference to what is actually happening, that is why I have attended marches, visited Tara and printed car window stickers for savetara.org. Talking is easy, it doesn't require people to actually get involved or make any real effort.

Well aren't you the martyr... Slogging out every day and night to print car window stickers....
If you are only prepared to be someone else’s lackie and are not prepared to inform yourself correctly as to how to achieve success against political and legal obstruction then there is little hope for what you are doing.
If you cannot talk about issues, how are you supposed to be able to 'drum up support'. And if you blindly reprint other peoples propaganda without query you are just as bad as those TD's who voted in favour of the various acts, senators who sanctioned them, ministers who instigated them, committees who brought through SI's to apply those acts, The Co-Councillors who propose budget and planning matters within the county, the sub contractors of engineers, environmental planners, state and private archaeologists, landscape engineers, heritage officers and other Board Planála and OPW employees who have blindly followed orders as given to them by Mr. Cullen (who at the time I write this, exceeds his quota and is re-elected despite the people of Waterford seeing the results of his acts with the destruction of possibly the worlds largest viking settlement outside of Nordic countries that just happens to be in the middle of a proposed by-pass and industrial/commercial development) et al...
It disturbs me that you think of the wider issues as being minutiae. Where as in fact, the protest blockade is minutiae.
Talk makes messes like these and talk will undo them. Talking educates, talking informs, talking is the only way to succeed. No campaign has ever been won by blockading. They have been done by communication.
How much effort does it take to go to a machine compound and sit on your arse and be seen as a stereotypical tree hugging crusty, and how much effort does it take to educate yourself on all the matters pertaining to the law and governance of such matters, and then take ALL appropriate action, to place yourself in the focus of senior state council and justices of the courts, TD's, Ministers, Senators and Councillors and Talk your case....
Talking is the cornerstone of the political and legal systems. If you don’t talk you cannot operate within these realms.
And while we are on the subject of talking...
Have any of you bothered your arses to talk to the Local clan's? You probably don’t know anything about that do you?
Isn't it lovely that the fact of a motorway going through there are people all over the country and from abroad, who like you, more so than ever before, take the opportunity and excuse to go up to Tara, to tromp all over it, hold large loud ceremonies on it that loosen the ground mass and cause erosion damage, light fires, leave rubbish, leave inappropriate ‘offerings’ and petitions, cause disturbances of various sorts, offend residents, deface private property and public advertisement etc…. The list of what has been cited by authorities as reprehensible behaviour is becoming alarming and it is not far short of inevitable that the OPW or other state bodies will decide ‘in the national interest’, to close off Tara itself to all those thousands who come and go morning noon and night, year round in hail rain and shine to be free to roam respectfully over a place that has resonated to the Irish subconscious for centuries. The ability to freely roam over Tara is a privilege, not a rite. That privilege is perilously close to being taken away and that is not minutae.

Now you are periousley close to ticking me off... your choice... state your case intelligantley and consideratley and I will have little to say... Continue to make the diatribe of a sheep and I will have something to say. If there is one thing I hate more than sheep, it's willful sheep... Find your own mind and then get back to us.

scorplett

Ah, the sllick 'edit post' button has been pressed...
Well done for considering your words... After the fact...

joseph dawton wrote:

The purpose of the post was to try and drum up support for opposition to the road being forced through. Con asked me and others to publicise his original request anywhere likely to achieve that.

I'm not really interested in continuing arguing about minutae, I am more interested in actually trying to make a difference to what is actually happening.

Talking is easy, it doesn't require people to actually get practically involved in making a difference. Direct action works, the legal route must be pursured, but if you want to wait for legislation it will be too late!

Can you please provide evidance of where direct action has worked?
And who says that legal route is the only non physical route available?
To dumb it down a bit...
Waiting/hoping/lobbying for legislation is political not legal.
Applying and proving legislation is legal not political.
How is attending council meetings, An Board Planála hearings, petitioning TD's Senators and Councillors etc etc not practical involvement? How does that not make a differance? If political and legal avenues are easy, why dont you try it...
I have been there done that got pissed off with the lack of results as far as direct action goes... And let me tell you, D-locking yourself to the driveshaft of a tanker is not easy ... But its a peice of piss in comparison to using your brain!
As far as too late goes...
Did you lobby your local TD when the Heritage Ammendment Act was coming up for discussion and vote in the Dail?
If you didn't they you already left it too late! You only opened your eyes when it was already too late!

Surion

This conversation should really have been stopped after 3/4th response tbh. I don't agree with either side, it's going no-where and the intellectual attack didn't really do what it said on the tin. It's hardly 'guidance' being offerred in this thread - just ego exercise.

Hardly pagan debate when one side is drowned out.

Nevyn

Disscussion is not the same as debate and the both have as much right to air thier views.

The hertige trust and the office oc public works are just waiting for an excuse to do to Tara what they did at Newgrange which is to fence off and isolate the site and charge entry fees and limit the number of people and allow for strictly guided tours.

This will curtails everyones access to the site and those who live nearby and have worked magically with reverence up there for the last ten years or more.

There have already been out cries on national radio stations about some of the 'carry on' up there.

r3nu4l

Having visited both Tara and Newgrange a number of times (as well as Stonehenge!) I am of two minds as to what can have prevented this.

On one hand, had the Government put more investment into Tara the site would be worth far more to casual visitors and far more educational for them. There is feck all at Tara to really engage the casual visitor, therefore plans to run a road through don't garner much opposition from the general public. If Tara was better organsied with more detailed information on the history and significance of the place for casual tourists then perhaps more people would support the campaign to maintain it as part of our cultural heritage.

On the other hand, as Thaedydal pointed out, investment would lead to commercialisation and suck the life out of the place and the Government would then have used the increased volume of traffic going to Tara as an excuse to place the road and accelerate development.

Starbright

And while you all talk and debate on the issues invovled and what could be done guess who's not listening?...the bulldozers.

All the talking fell on deaf and corrupt ears, I'm not encouraging any one to go and jump in front of a digger. Just being there in the valley is what is actually needed.

And if you really just want to debate and talk, how about doing it with the papers, with the locals in Meath, with the radio stations, with everyone you know. you are the public......outcry.

Tara is a battle in a war if you let them pave paradise, you let them pave over your pagan rights.

Get up there use your senses, feel whats going on what the land needs. See for yourselves the destruction those giant machines are doing.

You know the deal, its the intention behind the wish, the intention behind the words. Showing off your intelligence here and doing nothing in the real world is worth zip. Hold a private ceremony send love to Tara.......

Now which one of you is going to pick apart my words here or organise some decent support or give real suggestions how people including ourselves can help productively, debating the issue has been done if you're for preserving a wonderful site do something and if your not.....may the gods and godesses bless you......... with some sense!

Star

Nevyn

Right first of Tara is not going to be paved over.
If you had looked any any of the maps and the plans you will see that for yourself.

Who are you to assume that those who have posted here have not already acted on this issue with the realms of thier own, honour and consience.

Bounding around on Tara damaging the earthworks and pissing off the locals and the people who go there to worship will not save it.

At this stage I think it needs to be Saved from many of those Claiming to try save it.

Tara was always about war and poltics that was the whole point of the place.

I'd love to know how many of those protestors voted, or even can vote, or were even bothered.
How many of them put the amendment of the heritage act and the changing of the road to thier TD's while they had them and to those that wanted thier vote.

scorplett

Starbright wrote:

And while you all talk and debate on the issues invovled and what could be done guess who's not listening?...the bulldozers.

The bulldozers may have stopped... But the work is still ongoing. The company have openly declared that they are not yet prepared to take a court injunction against protesters because the protesters have not stopped all work. If direct action protests were working, then they would already be in the high court applying for a chancery hearing. Which will be an easy thing to do.

Starbright wrote:

All the talking fell on deaf and corrupt ears, I'm not encouraging any one to go and jump in front of a digger. Just being there in the valley is what is actually needed.

I am very sorry to see that you are disillusioned to this degree in the legal and political system. I do hope you remember that when injunctions are brought. And why are you limiting yourself to the Tara Skryne valley area? Are there not archeaological sites of significance outside of those short geographical boundaries? Do you know what distance the valley covers?

Starbright wrote:

And if you really just want to debate and talk, how about doing it with the papers, with the locals in Meath, with the radio stations, with everyone you know. you are the public......outcry.

I write impartially about this issue for a publication, the editor of which chose my writing because I am "more factual than the usual emotive, incorrect and hyperbole filled press releases we usually get" from protest groups.
I am a local of Meath
I have also researched for radio
And I also inform anyone willing enough to listen, which includes TD's, Councilors, and even State council, members of the Law Library and of the bench.
I do my bit, you do yours!

Starbright wrote:

Tara is a battle in a war if you let them pave paradise, you let them pave over your pagan rights.

No the M3 is after the war and is an uprising against the outcome of that war.
Maybe you were not alive for the wood quay protests, or maybe you never heard of Carrickmines. Maybe you did but you just dont link them into the same issue. I do. The war was already lost and we live under the law as set down by successive Fiana Fail governments. The last stand in this long war was Carrickmines, in reaction to which the heritage ammendment act was introduces by minister Cullen.
The uprising may be successful but any coup needs more than a few rabble in order to succeed.
They may start giving you whiskey if they figure that one out

Starbright wrote:

Get up there use your senses, feel whats going on what the land needs. See for yourselves the destruction those giant machines are doing.

I think your missing something there. As someone who has worked in a magical context with the genus loci of the Boyne Valley region for over 20 years I think it is you who needs to use your sense and listen to what the land really wants... That is to be left alone. Not only by the contractors building the road but also by those who purport to save something that doesn't need saving as they are capable of doing what is needed to be done themselves... I see as much destruction coming from the protesters as I do from the construction. But thats just me. You are entitled to your view just as I am to mine. We don't agree but I'm not going to loose any sleep over that!

Starbright wrote:

You know the deal, its the intention behind the wish, the intention behind the words. Showing off your intelligence here and doing nothing in the real world is worth zip. Hold a private ceremony send love to Tara.......

Ok, first, no intention behind the wish is not the deal. I'm totally sure that the people who keep pouring porridge over the fairy trees are doing so with the best of intention, also those who tie plastic non biodegradable ribbon tightly around their trunks nor those who fix nickel coins into the crevices of bark are all doing so with the best of intentions where as in fact they are damaging the tree and the wildlife, not to mention pissing off the resident shishe! No best of intentions is most certainly not good enough.
Secondly, People will work within the remit of their own spiritual realms and ethics etc to do what they will if they see fit. Sending love to a place of battle as you put it is repulsive to those who work with war/battle/honor systems and deities. Personally I think sending love to Tara is stupid and pointless, but if it works for you and appeases your spiritual conscience then go ahead. I doubt you would do any harm!

Starbright wrote:

Now which one of you is going to pick apart my words here

I guess that would be me Here's smilin at ya kid!

Starbright

right so, old bitter and twisted ones stay in your hovels and let the war be over. Or how would you suggest that I in my supposed ignorance do something about this corrupt country?

Would you suggest, because you believe me to be a young impressionable fool, that I shut up and do nothing?

Are you going to start telling everyone to stay away from Tara?

Come on don't bash my words whats useful? what should people do, a nice quite revolution?

Nevyn

Starbright personal abuse will get you banned.
You have no idea of the ages of the people you address so don't presume.

Actually I don't go to Tara when those public spectacles are on and if I asked if it is a good idea to up there for them by a person I will give my opinion.

How many people in your life, your family work, collegues, ect have you spoken to about the danger Tara is in in your own quiet impassioned words ?

The majority of people in this country are not pagan and if Tara is labeled a Pagan and pagan only issue then the battle is lost. It needs to na a national cultural issue. Any actions which isolate the majority of people from Tara and disconnects from the matters at hand damages 'the cause'.

Starbright

And yet still you give no suggestions as to how we may help Tara, bitchiness aside?

How can we help right now in a practicle way?

I presume because you are the moderators you are now going to ban me, scorplett called me Kid I called her old and bitter, her and lady death's words are bitter. the very first post here they both bashed and probably this last post they''ll bash aswell.

But you obviously don't care, ban me cause you're ejits.

Starbright

Nevyn

First off scorplett is not a moderator in this forum.
Secondly If you have an issue with anyones post then use the report post function.

I do care and I am doing what practical things I can to help the situation.
I would not presume to tell anyone what to do, I don't know what resources you have at your disposal; you how ever do know.
Is suggest that you think about what you can do with your skills and resources utilise them.

Think for yourself.

Surion

Thaedydal wrote:

Starbright personal abuse will get you banned.
You have no idea of the ages of the people you address so don't presume.

Thaedydal while I don't mean to cross swords with you, this is incredible, and biased. The 'elongated' personal attacks that will take you a few mins to read, back at the beginning of this thread wasn't checked in anyway. And here is someone else having an expressed opinion quashed not debated.

For the sake of the thread, let me restate Thaedydal's comment..."both have as much right to air thier views"...now, can we please let the someone else have a view that might actually contradict scorplett's without attack.

Scorplett, other people don't approach this in the same way as you - nor are they doing anything less then you, except in your opinion of them. But I thought we are allowed to discuss these things without fear or favour.

Surion.

Talliesin

Thaedydal wrote:

I'd love to know how many of those protestors voted, or even can vote, or were even bothered.

Some of them held a protest outside FG offices on the day before the election (whereby political parties are banned from making most sorts of statement) which suggests they didn't know an election was on.