Minister claims Railway order for Navan Line within weeks

GerardKeating

Minister Cullen claimed (on DriveTime RTÉ Radio 1, yesterday evening) that a Railway order to re-open the entire railway route from Clonsila to Navan would be ready "within weeks".

Navan Junction

GerardKeating wrote:

Minister Cullen claimed (on DriveTime RTÉ Radio 1, yesterday evening) that a Railway order to re-open the entire railway route from Clonsila to Navan would be redy !within weeks".

He did, and that was completely wrong.......... It was Dunboyne which may be ready, but there has been no Public Inquiry so his definition of weeks could amount to anytime in the next 52.......

Chris_533976

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is an example of what we call "Electioneering"

BendiBus

Well, I doubt Martin Cullen will be signing it whatever it is.

GerardKeating

Navan Junction wrote:

He did, and that was completely wrong......

I did say claimed

dermo88

Hes a lying arrogant toad. Time for him to go.

Navan Junction

GerardKeating wrote:

I did say claimed

I know - I agree... I nearly crashed the car when he said it

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

Hes a lying arrogant toad. Time for him to go.

I do not believe it either. I would like to see him replaced with Tom Morrissey as transport minister if he gets elected and the current government returned.

We have to be careful about throwing out the T21 baby with the bathwater in a few days. Do we really want to replace Martin Cullen with Oliva Mitchell who stated (several times) that the Interconnector is a waste while her party leader promised to fast track the Western Rail Corridor.

This is why we have to think VERY CAREFULLY before voting this week. We could wreck Transport21 and any chance of Navan ever getting a rail connection. It's easy enough to slag off Cullen and want him out, but look at some of the alternatives before we shoot ourselves in the foot.

dermo88

Having discovered that theres ANOTHER website to get the word out, I have to admit being worn out at this stage with all their crap. I am exasperated, and feel like telling Guckian, Heffner and Zoney to go away, you can have the bloody thing.

Its demoralising.

The trouble is, that these projects take more than a term in Government to come to fruition, so by the time they are completed, its likely that your opponent is getting all the credit in photo opportunities.

So now....time for dermo88 to register at www.politics.ie

Martin Cullen, so far has sanctioned more of the new 22000 units, which is relatively easy. But not one inch of new track.

Olivia Mitchell....well frankly speaking, what I have to say about that woman is not worth a ban., but this is far as I'll go.....Shes so attractive that a sniper would'nt take her out.

P_1

Seriously, why is it taking so long to build 20 miles of railway through what is essentially farmland.
Only in this joke of a country...

Transport21 Fan

dermo88 wrote:

Olivia Mitchell....

She comes from a culture of instinctual rail transport terminators.

She would be a disaster for rail if she became minister - she will sign the death warrant on the Interconnector as soon as she finds a pen in Kildare Street and true to her culture will then instantly look at ways to curtail and remove current investment from rail.

Labour on the other hand are the semi-state trade union's bitch and their orders come directly from the bearded mullahs in Liberty Hall. So that will be to get "rid of the Metro and Luas as they are privatised" and replace them with a couple of new BD bus routes which "are like Luas trams, but more flexible".



To me, going by their statements, history and obligations - a FG led government will assume their traditional role as rail transport executioners once in Government. It's too frightening to even think about. Labour will only be looking out for "daycent oul skins" in the NBRU so bye-bye Luas and Metro and hello "stress payments".

Vote how you want, but I do hope people on this forum think long and hard before they make their decision. Just "getting that shower out" for the sake of would be a disaster for T21.

Hence I am asking people, if they care about the projects in Transport21 and want to give them a fighting chance of completion then vote either FF, PDs or Greens. All three parties are the safest bet to keep it alive.

We have the best chance we ever have to get a decent heavy, metro and light rail system we are ever going to get in this country - please do not sacrifice it when you come to cast your vote. Because we'll never get it back once that happens.

SeanW

Remember Fg+Labour would need teh greens to get into power, and I hope they do but with the Greens extracting a good deal for railways. FF simply cannot be trusted. IIRC the mantra in T21 was not "railway to Navan by 2015" but "subject to further studies, it is proposed to build a commuter rail link to Navan." If that's not a line engineered for an easy climbdown, I don't know what is.

The Greens may yet prove they're good for something (other than scaremongering).

Zoney

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Hence I am asking people, if they care about the projects in Transport21 and want to give them a fighting chance of completion then vote either FF, PDs or Greens. All three parties are the safest bet to keep it alive.

Really? I suppose they'll deliver Transport 21 like they were supposed to deliver the complete interurbans *as motorway* by 2006? Transport 21 is needed, but politically speaking it's not even a wishlist of what the current government want to do. It's a list of what they think people want to hear. And why on earth would you vote PDs? They're the ones who held up delivery on Dublin buses. They aren't exactly ideologically in favour of public services at all at all. Maybe you're in favour of rail services being run by private companies. Can you seriously see any Irish politicians getting that right, such that we'd be better off than just if more money was spent on public infrastructure and funding Iarnród Éireann?

As for FF, a vote for them is a vote for the PDs or a hung Dáil; they say they won't go in with Sinn Féin, hmmmm... then there's the Greens, how long would that last... Labour, only if they go gaga and commit political suicide, even so it would be short-lived and acrimonous.

Nope - you may not like everything Fine Gael or Labour propose, but they are the best hope for any halfway sane public services.

dowlingm

Cullen said weeks - just not how many! :rolleyes:

Schuhart

There was someone from Meath on Track on whatever RTE radio call 5-7 Live now. He was basically saying that Cullen was making excessive claims, and that all that could possibly be in process at the moment was as far as Dunboyne. He gave a reasonable, factual, outline of the situation - that the route between Duboyne and Navan had not been finally decided as it would make sense not to stick to the old alignment in places.

Mary Wilson said that RTE would seek clarification from Cullen as to what exactly he meant when he said he would be signing an order for Navan. I heard no more after that - but it will be interesting to see if any clarification is forthcoming.

For some reason I'm reminded of that old Myles Na gCopaleen comment about politics 'that crowd are as bad as the other crowd'.

BendiBus

Transport21 Fan wrote:

She would be a disaster for rail if she became minister - she will sign the death warrant on the Interconnector as soon as she finds a pen in Kildare Street and true to her culture will then instantly look at ways to curtail and remove current investment from rail.

Has Olivia Mitchell said she will kill the Interconnector? My understanding is that she wants the PPT opened as an interim measure, and in her Ard Fheis speech last May, referring to the timescale of T21, she said "Fine Gael will build the rail-based high capacity solutions. But we simply cannot sit, in the meantime, on our hands and wait for them."

Link to a link to a recent Irish Times article

Fine Gael transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell also said the route should be opened in the short term as the other interconnector was not due until 2015.

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I do not believe it either. I would like to see him replaced with Tom Morrissey as transport minister if he gets elected and the current government returned.

Sometimes I'm not sure if I am looking at sarcasm, satire or spoof.

Tom Morrisey who complained about Dublin Bus not laying on (dedicated) feeder buses for Rush and Lusk and what with his party colleagues refusing to allow Dublin Bus buy the buses.

markpb

Schuhart wrote:

Mary Wilson said that RTE would seek clarification from Cullen as to what exactly he meant when he said he would be signing an order for Navan. I heard no more after that - but it will be interesting to see if any clarification is forthcoming.

If RTE did their jobs properly in the first place, they might have researched politicians PR releases instead of just blindly repeating them to the nation. It's not like we're dealing with reps from the truth, honesty and clarity group

Schuhart

markpb wrote:

If RTE did their jobs properly in the first place, they might have researched politicians PR releases instead of just blindly repeating them to the nation.

I agree that, frequently, our media seem to just sleep their way through life. However, in fairness, that particular point arose originally from a Cullen vs Mitchell discussion on the radio on Monday where Cullen himself said he was about to sign a railway order for Navan. So RTE were not repeating a press release - it was a direct response by Cullen in that debate. Then, yesterday, the Meath on Track person was presumably phoning in to say 'the Minister got it wrong yesterday' (I didn't catch the start of the item).

I don't know if a clarification has actually been issued yet.

Chris_533976

Terrible as it may seem... I still think FF are the best bet.... every other group has so much going against them that it would be scary to have anyone BUT FF in again

The simple truth is that there is no party that will adequatly cover transport. Its a terrible thing to say and a depressing outlook for the country, but thats the face of it. None of them will do a job that we would deem 'adequate'. Just have to pick the best of a bad bunch, which IMO is FF.

markpb

Chris_533976 wrote:

Terrible as it may seem... I still think FF are the best bet.... every other group has so much going against them that it would be scary to have anyone BUT FF in again

The simple truth is that there is no party that will adequatly cover transport. Its a terrible thing to say and a depressing outlook for the country, but thats the face of it. None of them will do a job that we would deem 'adequate'. Just have to pick the best of a bad bunch, which IMO is FF.

I've yet to see a good reason for saying that. I'm not attacking you, several people have said it lately.

FF have a proven track record of being useless and late when it comes to public transport, even in the face of having money pouring in. How long have FF spent promising the Navan line? Did they not promise to have the metro up and running by 2007? The two Luas lines opened three years ago and they've hard started work on any upgrades, new lines or extensions.

FG and Labour have a pretty awful record but during much worse times when money was hard to find. What makes you or anyone else say they're not suited to the job or they're scary?

D'Peoples Voice

markpb wrote:

FG and Labour have a pretty awful record but during much worse times when money was hard to find.

Mark, that is spin!
I ask you to check the records of the budget of 1996,
you will find that at the same time as the Rainbow governemnt ran a budget surplus they also CUT the subsidy to CIE.

But don't worry, you're not alone,
there are thousands of Irish people who hear

how the Rainbow Coalition left the country in fantastic fiscal position

the Rainbow Coalition couldn't solve this or that as they didn't have the money

Politics is like hypnotherapy, it's all about messing with people's minds!

Navan Junction

Mark, I think a major problem with the FG position on transport is that they haven't really had any..

FG have said that they were simply supporting all of the projects in Transport 21. Clever use of words as that is not the same as saying if or when you will deliver them.

Commuters oick up on things like that. I wish FG/Labour had been much stronger but they haven't.

Political parties are also able to sense what has the potential to be a make or break issue.

FG reckoned that transport as an issue had been neutralised by Transport 21. So they ditched it, and just mentioned it to point out failed deliveries.

What was disappointing was that their "Contract with the People" ignored Transport. And to be confident that a party will do their best on an issue, they have to appear interested in the first place.

FG just didn't come accross as interested, and therefore there is bound to be questions raised as to what type of delivery you could expect in govt..

And trust me, I would have been delighted if FG had been strong on transport as that would have forced all of the other parties to try harder on it.

Instead we had a sitaution where Martin Cullen has had so little to say on it during the election that he couldn't remember where he was about to sign a railway order for in Meath.

markpb

Navan Junction wrote:

Mark, I think a major problem with the FG position on transport is that they haven't really had any [...] FG reckoned that transport as an issue had been neutralised by Transport 21. So they ditched it, and just mentioned it to point out failed deliveries.

They decided that transport was not going to be an election issue and probably rightly so. FF have done an okay-ish job of building roads so it's only really commuters and people in cities who care about it. Promising to spend money on the interconnector, Dublin Bus or more Luas lines isnt going to win votes outside the GDA. If it's not going to win many votes, it's not worth campaigning on. Crap but that's politics.

But there's a big jump in logic from not seeing someone campaigning on something to assuming they won't be any good at it or that they'll ignore it completely after they're elected. We know, absolutely, undeniably, that FF are crap at public transport in cities. It's just not an important issue for them. T21 was too little too late and by the time it's happened, assuming it does happen, it won't have been enough to keep up with the growth that had happened in the meantime. If it as all here right now, it would be quite good.

I'm not pro-FG or pro-Labour, I just don't understand why people think that anyone other than FF will be no good at transport. I'm sure there are lots of issues that FG and Labour didn't touch on during their campaign, should we assume they'll be crap at those as well and we should leave them to FF?

And yes, point taken D'Peoples Voice, but I still think that given the absolutely massive amounts of money pouring into the economy in the last 10 years and no real sign of it stopping during that period, FF should have done better.

Zebra3

markpb wrote:

They decided that transport was not going to be an election issue and probably rightly so. FF have done an okay-ish job of building roads so it's only really commuters and people in cities who care about it. Promising to spend money on the interconnector, Dublin Bus or more Luas lines isnt going to win votes outside the GDA. If it's not going to win many votes, it's not worth campaigning on. Crap but that's politics.

But didn't FG get wiped out in the 2002 GE in Dublin?

And wouldn't a decent transport plan for the GDA have put them in with a good shout of winning some of those seats back?

D'Peoples Voice

markpb wrote:

And yes, point taken D'Peoples Voice, but I still think that given the absolutely massive amounts of money pouring into the economy in the last 10 years and no real sign of it stopping during that period, FF should have done better.

Absolutely - I hope no-one would argue with you there. But before people say why wasn't this done or that done in respect of Dublin Bus, they should read the following thread, to understand why Fine Gael/PDs are asking for some routes to be privatised.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054930828&referrerid=&highlight=dublin+bus+%2B+move+terminus
Having said that, from my own personal experience of using Dublin Bus, I think Dublin Bus workers have come on leaps and bounds in recent years in terms of using the appropriate mechanisms to voice their disquiet with management or lack thereof. The amount of times that I've been left stranded on the pavement waiting for a bus, only to find out the driver has gone on strike(official or unofficial) I could count on one hand! This is to be welcomed and long may it continue:)

Navan Junction

markpb wrote:

I'm not pro-FG or pro-Labour, I just don't understand why people think that anyone other than FF will be no good at transport.

God, I'm definately not in the Martin Cullen fan club, and I don't think FF have done a good job on public transport all.. But at least they talk about it - FG/Lab haven't even put it up to them

markpb wrote:

I'm sure there are lots of issues that FG and Labour didn't touch on during their campaign

Maybe. But spending 8.5hrs in work and then up to 5 hours a day for a 60 mile round trip is mad.

A good marathon runner could run 30 miles in 2.5hrs.

One example of an up to 5hrs a day round trip which is close to my heart is one which 6 years ago only took 2 hours, frequently less.

The commuting mess is a serious social problem, but obviously not a serious politrical one.

It goes without saying that FF/PD could have done an awful lot better on delivering on transport over the past 5 years. It also goes without saying that FG/Lab could have done an awful lot better on transport over the run up to the election.

Chris_533976

markpb wrote:

I've yet to see a good reason for saying that. I'm not attacking you, several people have said it lately.

FF have a proven track record of being useless and late when it comes to public transport, even in the face of having money pouring in. How long have FF spent promising the Navan line? Did they not promise to have the metro up and running by 2007? The two Luas lines opened three years ago and they've hard started work on any upgrades, new lines or extensions.

FG and Labour have a pretty awful record but during much worse times when money was hard to find. What makes you or anyone else say they're not suited to the job or they're scary?

Well my biggest thing is that IMO there is no party out there who is going to do everything that we want. FF are the best of a very bad bunch

They're getting things done, thats their advantage. They're getting them done slowly, and they're not doing everything, but if you cut through this electioneering nonsense things are getting done. They have a (reasonable) plan up to 2010 and a general idea of the roads program up to 2015. Theres a few new Luas lines going in. I know theres a lot more they could do, but thats what they are doing.

The Greens have no idea what they're doing. Originally they said 'no new roads'. Then they said they would honour existing contracts, which would leave us with a half finished motorway network - eg with the N6, everything is now contracted except for the Ballinasloe - Athlone section. If the Greens got in you might end up with DC from Galway - Dublin with 20km of track in the middle. Then they said they might do them all - the reality is that they have no idea what their own manifesto is.

Labour/PD would be such an unstructured government that nothing would get done. They would fuss and ass about with themselves and muck about. Too much would be scrapped, not enough started. Truth be told, I dont know a lot about them, but I've learnt enough to say that they would be bad news if they got in.

FG are slightly better, as they've said they would honour T21, but still I'd be nervous of a huge amount of downtime as the new crowd move in.

There is no good party. The only transport benefits FF really have is that we know what they're doing and we have a general idea about how they're going to proceed. They're the best of a bad bunch and Im going to vote for them because we know what they're up to and we know their agenda.

All that said, a lot more rail investment is needed (WRC from Limerick to Tuam and no more, Navan rail, Cork to Midleton and start developing plans for a Youghal extension), theres a hell of a lot of work to do and this country is in the infrastructure state that it should have been in ~1995.

I could be wrong with all this, but I've thought it through a fair bit

Transport21 Fan

Victor wrote:

Tom Morrisey who complained about Dublin Bus not laying on (dedicated) feeder buses for Rush and Lusk and what with his party colleagues refusing to allow Dublin Bus buy the buses.

That's because he related it directly to union reforms at Dublin Bus. Nothing at all wrong with this.

Dublin Bus badly needed reform. They had lost 6 million passengers annually to the Luas and were still sending empty buses up and down the routes were the ridership had collasped while refusing to operate feeder buses into Rush/Lusk rail services. Sounds reasonable enough to me that he stopped them from getting the new buses while they were pulling their usual stunts.

Having met Tom Morrissey I can tell you that he is the only politician on this island who truly understands what rapid transit actually is and why people use it.

Victor

Transport21 Fan, and hte matter of licences?

Navan Junction, I warned you months ago, there is a problem with commuters not voting - hence they get ignored.

Chris_533976 wrote:

FG are slightly better, as they've said they would honour T21, but still I'd be nervous of a huge amount of downtime as the new crowd move in.

No politicians are needed in the design or contstruction of a road, unless you are looking for some extra fill material.

Navan Junction

Victor wrote:

there is a problem with commuters not voting - hence they get ignored.

Well, there may be a turnout for the books - the vote in the Johnstown / Athlumney area is way, way up on 2002 and 2005.. That may be about to change somewhat.

But where those votes go, and on what basis is a big question which I suspect may not have an answer

Chris_533976

Chris_533976 wrote:

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is an example of what we call "Electioneering"

Its a pity I was right in this