any advice here

bottom feeder

Waterford open main event and its day two, blinds are 800 – 1500 ante 100. I am playing very tight for the last 2-3 hours and just chipping away, my stack is around 60k and average is about 50k. I have been very cautious through out the tourney and have not put my tourney life at risk once.
Anyhow then this hand develops; I’m 2 from the button and is folded to me look down at pocket 22 and am thinking what am I going to do with these, as its folded to me I make a raise to 3800 in total and its folded around to the BB who thinks for a bit then calls…..
Villain in this hand is at the table a couple of hours, seems somewhat aggressive when involved in a hand and is after taking a few hits, his stack is down to about 67k…

Flop comes down 10 8 3 R [pot is 9300 including antes]

BB checks and I say ok and bet 6200 – villain thinks then raises to 15k, [pot 30k’ish]

What do I do here….?
would appreciate some advice here whether its good, bad or indifferent…

Hectorjelly

I would just fold. I would much rather go all in with A3 than 22 here. Even if the guy hasnt looked at his cards yet his hand is a small fav over yours.

califano

Check the flop behind, then check fold uninproved on later streets. As played fold to his reraise.

The reason is mainly
"Villain somewhat aggressive when involved in a hand and is after taking a few hits"

Also
Its not a board your likely to have hit and its a board he's much more likely to have hit if he hasnt a pair already or possibly a set.

sock.rocker*

i say fold. his raise of 8,800 into 15,500 means you are paying 8,800 to hit a set where you will only win 23,300. any odds you have to improve to trips are gone..
if he's very aggressive like you say, you could try going over the top again hoping he hasnt hit top pair but i would never personally take the risk. since he was already big blind he may have got into the hand with A 8 maybe or 10 wit other broadway. i'd only ever call this if i had a read on him and intented to put it all in on the turn maybe but i think this is also bad play.

my opinion anyway, see if anyone else says different?

Macspower

I fold here Wes...... personally 22 is a hand I play to "set or forget" I would check the flop and hope to catch the turn and fold to any pressure.... but then I'm a wimp.....

A real man would come back OTT and stare him down into submission..........but I couldn't do it...

what happened?? and btw did u cash in waterford... if so WD

bottom feeder

yeah lads its obvious that i did come over the top here and pushed :eek: , but at the time i taught it was the correct play as i hoped it looked like an over pair....
anyhow the villain was douggie19 in this hand, eventually he called saying something like i need to hit [but after talking to him after the hand he said he had said 'i dont need to do this' ??] and his holdings where 98o - and thats me Elbusto

i was very surprised with this call at the time as i could of easily had A10 here, over pair or a set as i think i would have played it the same way against douggie... however i am now looking at my faults in this hand and hope to learn from them and do appreciate peoples advice as i feel i can only benefit from my mistakes....

Hectorjelly

Theres two problems I have with this hand, first is you when called you are drawing nearly dead, and you chose a very bad target to make your move on.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sock.rocker*

is it really proper play to try and take down the pot wit 22 wit a bigger bet? i limp from late with them and hope for set nd if i dont hit, im gone

dougee19

yeah, you should have picked a player that knew what he was doing, i mean middle pair 9 kicker, horrible play, had to have a tell or something... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: hehehe

and for the reference, the whole i dont have to call means i could pick a better time where i had a monster instead of what might have been against overcards...
i was convinced i was ahead(could have had my read way off) and i put almost all my chips on my decision which i was happy to do, i go by my reads in situations, a lot of things come into play and i was sure i was ahead, im not going to be calling my whole stack off with a pair of 8's if i think i'm behind, and i know many boards players will think i will but i would like to think that a few of the players i played against over the weekend know its true

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bottom feeder

dougee19 wrote:

yeah, you should have picked a player that knew what he was doing, i mean middle pair 9 kicker, horrible play, had to have a tell or something... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: hehehe

and for the reference, the whole i dont have to call means i could pick a better time where i had a monster instead of what might have been against overcards...
i was convinced i was ahead(could have had my read way off) and i put almost all my chips on my decision which i was happy to do, i go by my reads in situations, a lot of things come into play and i was sure i was ahead, im not going to be calling my whole stack off with a pair of 8's if i think i'm behind, and i know many boards players will think i will but i would like to think that a few of the players i played against over the weekend know its true

listen douggie i played this hand so badly and am first to admit this, but i dont honsetly think you had a read, i could easly have A10 here - i just think you find it very hard to lay down a pair and thats my biggest mistake for not realzing this sooner... your calling for your stack [7k remaining] with second pair .. anyway man well played and nice result for ya...

Lazare

bottom feeder wrote:

listen douggie i played this hand so badly and am first to admit this, but i dont honsetly think you had a read, i could easly have A10 here - i just think you find it very hard to lay down a pair and thats my biggest mistake for not realzing this sooner... your calling for your stack [7k remaining] with second pair .. anyway man well played and nice result for ya...

Wes, the only thing you did wrong, which was stated earlier, was that you picked the wrong opponent (I wonder did you know this was Dougee19), your play on both streets stinks of a premium pair considering your tight image, your actual holding is irrelevent. I'd fold JJ to you in that spot.

dougee19

yeah, couldnt lay down a hand... no chance at all...

being honest, and whether ye believe it or not.... online i fold this, live i call here, others who have played with me before know i can lay down hands, i would like to think so anyway, and it is only in certain situations i call... whether people think it or not some people know of the big hands i can fold and why i call in certain situations....
and i can understand the feelings after my posts... ul wes, picked the wrong guy i guess


this is going to be my last comment on this thread cause its obvious that ye dont believe me and i dont have to prove myself on here anyway, i know my own abilities and am happy with my plays

bops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Didn't know about his bleeding eye tell. Reads huh? My apologies, I forgot poker was all about spotting for tells and going with your gut feeling.

If Wes was playing tight for a period of three hours and his effective range for pushing there leaves you drawing to five outs most of the time (pretty much dead some of the time) I'm going to say your call was meh.

I think that's a bit harsh Lloyd TBH

I played with Dougee for the first 5 hours, he played very well IMO, he made some excellent calls and some excellent laydowns (one hand he correctly laid down QQ PF)

You think it's a joke that he based his game on his reading ability?? I find that very naive - that's how most good players play.

It is often the case when a player who doesnt play a hand for ages, who gets involved in a hand like this - they often have SFA - it's a combination of frustration & the fact that they believe that they should get a lot of respect considering their current image.

Wes is a fine player and I'm sure he knows that it was hari-kari - but fair play to him for at leat having the balls.

Anyway well played Dougee - we had a good chat, he knows what he's on about and an awful nice fella to boot! - he's also very hard to read BTW and he caught me bluffing about 500 times (which wasn't hard coz i played like an absolute donktard - what's new!!)

mdwexford

aside from raising more preflop i think Wes played this hand ok, HJ is has a point in that if your called your practically out of the tournament so it is high risk but he shouldnt have been called here imo

Flushdraw

Wes the first mistake you make is your preflop raise is way too small. With stacks that deep, dougee is going to call with ATC as Lloyd says.

When you get CR on the flop, i let this go. Dougee has commited himself to the hand by putting the 3bet in. Over the previous day, he made a couple of dubious calls with 2nd pairs etc and got lucky sometimes, aswel as being ahead on others so they can be classed as good calls. Either way, he probably wont fold to your push if he has any of the flop and goes with his read.

I'd rather push in your spot with AK because at least you have some outs if called rather than just the 2. Its tough to go out on a total bluff after playing good solid poker for bout 12 hours but just shows how quickly you put it behind you, to go on and take down the 150 game. WP and good discipline showed

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sock.rocker*

above post explains how dougee cud/shud have though A 10

califano

Bottom feeder i think we all have moments in mtt's when we have rushes of blood to the head where we suddenly say in our minds "I must win this pot" and then go and do something rash to win it. This was one of those hands, i think you know this anyway.
In one instance you say to yourself:

bottom feeder wrote:

folded to me look down at pocket 22 and am thinking what am I going to do with these

Then next minute your reraising all in.

Dougee done well when he reraised to 15k and this is an obvious q for you to fold up(I do think you going all in would have been a marginally better play if dougee had led out on the flop though).

In the end the fact that dougee called light instead of having a set or overpair makes no difference and in mtt's it isnt a good idea to be trying powerplays to get someone off tptk hands when there is no need were not all Lazares:D .

Its an interesting hand but im wondering if you would have posted it if he had a set or overpair instead of what he called with because dougie calling like he did seems to have given you a certain amount of credit and deflected the focus away from your play in the hand.

bottom feeder

rounders123 wrote:

Bottom feeder i think we all have moments in mtt's when we have rushes of blood to the head where we suddenly say in our minds "I must win this pot" and then go and do something rash to win it. This was one of those hands, i think you know this anyway.
In one instance you say to yourself:


Then next minute your reraising all in.

Dougee done well when he reraised to 15k and this is an obvious q for you to fold up(I do think you going all in would have been a marginally better play if dougee had led out on the flop though).

In the end the fact that dougee called light instead of having a set or overpair makes no difference and in mtt's it isnt a good idea to be trying powerplays to get someone off tptk hands when there is no need were not all Lazares:D .

Its an interesting hand but im wondering if you would have posted it if he had a set or overpair instead of what he called with because dougie calling like he did seems to have given you a certain amount of credit and deflected the focus away from your play in the hand.

yeah did get a rush alright and wish i didn't [hindsight]. when he checked raised me on the flop i should have deffo folded but i assumed he'd fold to my all in [maybe stubborn bet] and you know what they say about assumptions 'the mother of all fu@k ups'

yes i would be still posting this if he had a set or over pair but obviously in a different context as it was my exiting hand .

Flushdraw

bottom feeder wrote:

it was my exciting hand .

Exiting hand or exciting hand

bottom feeder

Flushdraw wrote:

Exiting hand or exciting hand

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Didn't know about his bleeding eye tell. Reads huh? My apologies, I forgot poker was all about spotting for tells and going with your gut feeling.

If Wes was playing tight for a period of three hours and his effective range for pushing there leaves you drawing to five outs most of the time (pretty much dead some of the time) I'm going to say your call was meh.

i think this is overly harsh. he thought he was ahead he was correct. also Wes never had AT there imo. OP or better.from what ive heard dougee made a few of these calls, albert told me, and he said he was good, although he did pay Al`s well played QQ off. also laying down QQ preflop shows he can fold a pair

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Solksjaer

Wes the push was inspired as your options were..A) he would fold or he would call and you would get knocked out and go on to win the final side event....WD by the way..howabout a wee celebratory report??

People can argue all day about this hand, regardless of what Wes had his push would have got through agianst most players.....In fairness to Doughie he gambled that you didn't have any of it....ballsey plays by both and rather than criticise both I say LOL donka.....no i can't say it


..Doughie I like players who play unorthodox it makes poker less boring and predicatble....who cares really what the bible says you both won some dosh so respect to the pair of you......I've seen the pros do worse.....

had to pull out of both boards grudge and heads up tournys today:(

valor

just fold

pushing against this guy seems beyond retarded

jbravado

For what its worth I played a decent amount of cash game hands with dougee in Waterford and saw him make some startingly good calls.

It appears to me that he a pure instinct player and if he says he had a solid read then he had one.


Ive reread this thread and the comments towards dougee are totally off.
I have little doubt that if this was a respected player his call would be labelled top class-but because of the
way he is percieved (self inflicted possibly) there are snide comments that appear to belittle his ability and what was a good call.

bottom feeder

Sam I did question his ability as I hadn’t played with him before and I suppose some of it was self-inflicted but after talking to him for a bit off the table and reading other peoples opinions my perception of him is duly changing….
Just want to add [again] I know myself that I played this hand badly and is the reason why I posted it.

ollyk1

bottom feeder wrote:

Sam I did question his ability as I hadn’t played with him before and I suppose some of it was self-inflicted but after talking to him for a bit off the table and reading other peoples opinions my perception of him is duly changing….
Just want to add [again] I know myself that I played this hand badly and is the reason why I posted it.

Dougee made a number of calls on Day one with weak hands that were good.

He accumulated his stack by having a lot of people bluff bet at him. I think this is a live skill he has in inducing these bluffs and then making the correct call and I commend him for it. You fell for it on this instance Wes but you weren't alone in that. Live and learn. On the other hand you could have spoken to some people who had tried to bluff him on Friday and you wouldn't have fallen for it. I didn't play with Dougee all weekend but I knew that much about him

I often fold 22 in this spot preflop especially with a guy like Dougee in the blinds or else I raise much stronger, but then again just because a lot of people seemed to be making weak raises at this stage of the tournie I would still be raising at least 3 BBs especially in light of the antes this has to be the minimum raise for me.

In fairness to people putting hands from Waterford up for discussion it should be said that a lot of these hands are being played after a seriously draining session from the night before (plus 3-4 hours travel) and in the middle of a long session on Saturday. It's easy to play optimally on boards after the event!

semibluff

whats your action Wes is dougee bets out the flop?? if like everyone else says he knew were he stood and made a good call then fair play, but i dont like the "i prob need to hit but ill call anyway". its my pet peeve in poker, "im behind but ill call anyways . . .

well done on the cashes to both players

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Bandana boy

Wes
I think you need to look to yourself here

either option A he is a calling station so you where wrong to bluff and you made a mistake
or option b he is capable of folding here but he had a read on you that you where not strong again a fault from your side not his

I used(still) to come out with the statement how could you call here
but that will always come down to me

on a side note i either raise more pre flop and open push a reasonably favourable flop or limp and check fold my missed set here

ollyk1

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Olly, everyone is aware of that. And of course hypothetical analysis is always easier. But that is the nature of analysis - and if you identify what was correct and stick it away some where; it may come out when you next need it in the heat of battle. That is what this board is for.

So I must say that I find that paragraph a little irrelevant. Sorry.

The last paragraph was more for Wes' benefit then anyone else. He's probably being a bit hard on himself for bluffing it all away.

P.S. Some of the responses to threads like this from guys who have never been in these situations make me laugh to be honest (not talking about you here Lloyd you paranoid android ). Making a big move in these tournies looks inspired when it works and you look like a donkey when you get called. End of story for me.

Solksjaer

Yeah well said there Olli you old samaritan you.
This hand was not so bad by either player, the only thing might be a bigger preflop riase to keep the rags out of calling..
(IMO) Regardless of what people say here , Doughies call was brave at best as was Wes's push. I like to see poker like this, (however much the pundits hate it) the old QQ agianst AK battles are rather boring.

variance

douggie knocked me out as well, i moved to his table wit about 42 runners left, blinds were 1000/2000 and i had roughly 40k left after takin a couple hits in the last few hours, douggie had me well covered. he raised utg to 5500 and i called in the BB wit 5c6c( any comments on this call) antes in the middle of 100 each i think so leavin pot circa 10k and 3.5k more to call.

flop comes down 10 4 5 wit one club. i check douggie bets 6k/7k and i raise to 15k, douggie then re reraises to 30 k and i ship it all in for 35k total and obviously douggie has to call now. he has pocket 3s and i hit 2 pair on the turn to put him open ended and hits a 7 on river for a str8. sick way to go out but i think i shud of shipped it in on the flop.

califano

The biggest thing ive learned from this thread so far is that im calling more in future.

DeadParrot

lol

BuChan

hey wes, i think the strangest thing about this hand is the preflop raise. was that your standard line for the last few hours? i don't think the flop play is to terrible, i mean it was a nice big pot that you felt you had a good chance to win. i think putting him on 10, an 8 or a draw is pretty reasonable and many many players would fold these hands to a reraise. like olly said you look great when those plays work and foolish when they fail. i don't think that means it sould never be done. i don't know about trying it on this dougee fellow though, in the time he had been at your table had you seen any of these type calls being made? also i think some people are giving dougee too much grief over his call, is it never right to call someone down with secondpair or whatever in a big pot? i think wes (random players) have a big A and underpairs here a pretty decent % of the time. you might possibly have looked pretty uncomfortable or in someway different from the way you had been acting in the other pots you were in while dougee was your table. live tells are not completely useless, some people (NOT wes from my experience) have pretty signifigant tells.

Bandana boy

variance wrote:

douggie knocked me out as well, i moved to his table wit about 42 runners left, blinds were 1000/2000 and i had roughly 40k left after takin a couple hits in the last few hours, douggie had me well covered. he raised utg to 5500 and i called in the BB wit 5c6c( any comments on this call) antes in the middle of 100 each i think so leavin pot circa 10k and 3.5k more to call.

flop comes down 10 4 5 wit one club. i check douggie bets 6k/7k and i raise to 15k, douggie then re reraises to 30 k and i ship it all in for 35k total and obviously douggie has to call now. he has pocket 3s and i hit 2 pair on the turn to put him open ended and hits a 7 on river for a str8. sick way to go out but i think i shud of shipped it in on the flop.

All this establishs is Dougees luckboxness:D

dougee19

semibluff wrote:

"i prob need to hit but ill call anyway". its my pet peeve in poker, "im behind but ill call anyways . . .

bull crap, you are the 4th person to say that i said that.... and i didnt say it!!!
i have no witnesses to this but i never ever say that i then call, pppspecial was sitting beside me and might have overheard what i said, and if he did i can 100% guarantee it was nothing along those lines!!!

dougee19

variance wrote:

douggie knocked me out as well, i moved to his table wit about 42 runners left, blinds were 1000/2000 and i had roughly 40k left after takin a couple hits in the last few hours, douggie had me well covered. he raised utg to 5500 and i called in the BB wit 5c6c( any comments on this call) antes in the middle of 100 each i think so leavin pot circa 10k and 3.5k more to call.

flop comes down 10 4 5 wit one club. i check douggie bets 6k/7k and i raise to 15k, douggie then re reraises to 30 k and i ship it all in for 35k total and obviously douggie has to call now. he has pocket 3s and i hit 2 pair on the turn to put him open ended and hits a 7 on river for a str8. sick way to go out but i think i shud of shipped it in on the flop.

there was just one thing, it was 36k i re-raised all in, i had your stack counted and had put you all in... only thing wrong with above comment
and as for the play, i thought u were weak, trying to take me off a pot, and i got seriously lucky and you deserved to be in the tournament after a great call

Bandana boy wrote:

All this establishs is Dougees luckboxness:D

if thats all you think then you obviously dont realise im trying to make a play, do you just like posting random comments about players instead of looking at the plays???!!!!

variance

you were right that i was pretty weak but i was stil fairly sure i was ahead of you. pity u didnt have aces or kings cuz i would of cracked those with two pair but i cudnt crack those mighty threes !!!

bottom feeder

variance wrote:

you were right that i was pretty weak but i was stil fairly sure i was ahead of you. pity u didnt have aces or kings cuz i would of cracked those with two pair but i cudnt crack those mighty threes !!!

LOL

semibluff

bottom feeder wrote:

anyhow the villain was douggie19 in this hand, eventually he called saying something like i need to hit [but after talking to him after the hand he said he had said 'i dont need to do this' ??] and his holdings where 98o - and thats me Elbusto
....

Douggie19 wrote:

bull crap . . .

I merely commented on what i was told

dougee19

semibluff wrote:

I merely commented on what i was told

the bull crap wasnt directed towards you, sorry....
just saying that was bull crap, didnt say that...