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This is sickening

  • 20-05-2007 1:30pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    Was just randomly looking on Wikipedia and came across the Vasco de Gama Bridge in Lisbon. Interesting comparison on road capacity with here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama_Bridge

    The bridge itself notwithstanding, this is the paragraph that interested me -
    The bridge carries six road lanes, with a speed limit of 120 km/h, the same as motorways, except on one section which is limited to 100 km/h. On windy, rainy and foggy days, the speed limit is reduced to 90 km/h. The number of road lanes will be enlarged to eight when traffic reaches a daily average of 52,000.

    Wonder how many roads we have with 52,000 AADT as D4m? 0.
    Wonder how many roads we have with 52,000 AADT as D3m?
    Wonder how many roads we have with 52,000 AADT as D2m? Some.
    Wonder how many roads we have with 52,000 AADT as S2? I dread to think.

    Sickening to see how forward planning works in another country compared to here.

    Other countries - Plan ahead
    Other countries - Forget to plan ahead but fix the problem
    Ireland - Dont plan ahead, ignore the problem and install a half assed fix as infrequently as possible.


    /rant.
    Tagged:


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭✭ WhiteAp


    I hear your sentiment, but I think you might have to explain D4m, D3m, D2m and S2 to get the masses behind you...

    Reminds me of the Frankfurt-Cologne ICE train route. The old route used to take nigh on 2 hours for the winding 180km journey. Not too bad you might say, but being Germans they decide to build a straight route. Building 30 tunnels and 17 viaducts. It took 6 years to build, but came in on time & on budget and now you can whizz between the two cities in around an hour... (Imagine Dublin-Waterford in 1 hour?)

    Analyse the situation, find a solution, do it, if you make a mistake correct it asap. Easy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    Ah :D

    D4m = Dual carriageway / motorway with 4 lanes in each direction
    D3m = Dual carriageway / motorway with 3 lanes in each direction
    D2m = Dual carriageway / motorway with 2 lanes in each direction
    S2 = Standard two way road of varying quality, 1 lane in each direction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 425 ✭✭ Niall1234


    Chris, with all the work on the interurbans, and the liklihood that Cork to Galway will be HQDC, we are starting to plan ahead.

    What gets me though are the people who come on saying we should do rail instead, dump the interurban policy and put in 2+1 roads to join up sections of interurban which already have been completed. Insanity at its worst, and something the green party would just love to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭ AlekSmart


    Quote [WhiteAp]
    " Reminds me of the Frankfurt-Cologne ICE train route. The old route used to take nigh on 2 hours for the winding 180km journey. Not too bad you might say, but being Germans they decide to build a straight route. Building 30 tunnels and 17 viaducts. It took 6 years to build, but came in on time & on budget and now you can whizz between the two cities in around an hour... (Imagine Dublin-Waterford in 1 hour?) [End]

    AND just to rub caustic soda into the wound,when a strong and highly specialized team such as the Dublin Transport Authority Establishment Team submit a Report calling for REAL powers in the Land Use and Management arena,our relevant Minister ditches that as a matter of course.

    Believe me,the Govermental Decision to reject the DTA Establishment Groups initial request has set the seal on Dublins Public Transport and Traffic situation for decades to come,if not centuries.

    The Government clings stoically to the notion that Land Use and Planning is best left to the Land Owners,Auctioneers,Lawyers and as few Politicos.....any Proffessional input from REAL Planners will be stoutly refuted !! :cool:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭ dermo88


    Agree, it should never be a question of rail vs road. Both should get investment, and our road network is inadequate and still catching up with the rest of the European Union.

    Why on earth can poorer countries do it better.

    It just seems to be a myriad of NIMBYism, Treehuggers, Brown envelopes and contracts at Cheltenham and Galway racetracks that prevent anything happening.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,582 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    No idea how useful that bridge is, but it's a spectacular sight.

    If you're ever flying into Lisbon you'll get a great view of as you come into land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭ Bards


    and once the Inter Urbans and Atlantic Corridor are finished the only road left to do will be the N24 between Waterford and Limerick, then all the Cities will be interconnected to each other by good safe roads.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭ slickmcvic


    At least progress is beginging to place in this country.Up until now we had no cash to even plan never mind build any infastructure. A think these intercity routes are really coming along espicially on the Dublin-Galway route.
    My biggest fear is that a new government after this election will come along & abandon the NDP....somethin the greens have vowed to do....Hippy freaks...cant stand em


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,864 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    Niall1234 wrote:
    Chris, with all the work on the interurbans, and the liklihood that Cork to Galway will be HQDC, we are starting to plan ahead.

    What gets me though are the people who come on saying we should do rail instead, dump the interurban policy and put in 2+1 roads to join up sections of interurban which already have been completed. Insanity at its worst, and something the green party would just love to do.
    Actually Trevor Sergeant was pushed by Brian Dobson to say just which motorways/HQDCs the greens would ditch and he simply answered;"none of the ones between the major cities" so I'm guessing they'd agree with Dublin-Galway, Limerick, Cork and possibly Waterford at a minimum to D2M standard. They would likely wish to scrap D2M plans for the Atlantic Corridor but it's too late to do anything about the M3 as contracts have been signed and so on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 Chris_533976


    The Greens would probobly leave the Cork - Limerick N20 in the deplorable state that it is :(

    The Greens must NOT be allowed anywhere near the transport ministry.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,989 blorg


    slickmcvic wrote:
    At least progress is beginging to place in this country.Up until now we had no cash to even plan never mind build any infastructure.
    Unlike this bridge in Portugal, which is awash with money and one of the richest members of the EU? Or Spain? The country where they famously build metros for a fraction of the cost they amount to here?
    My biggest fear is that a new government after this election will come along & abandon the NDP....somethin the greens have vowed to do....Hippy freaks...cant stand em
    Eh, no, they have not, but they do want to see more focus on public transport in the NDP.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,964 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    murphaph wrote:
    Actually Trevor Sergeant was pushed by Brian Dobson to say just which motorways/HQDCs the greens would ditch and he simply answered;"none of the ones between the major cities" so I'm guessing they'd agree with Dublin-Galway, Limerick, Cork and possibly Waterford at a minimum to D2M standard.

    Actually the greens have been fiercely back pedaling on this whole issue as it is proving so controversial on the doorsteps.

    Originally they said they wanted to scrap all the interurbans.

    Then they said that they would scrap only the ones that the contracts hadn't been signed for yet. (which by the way would still be about 50% of the motorways planned under T21).

    Now they are saying they will build all the ones to all the big cities.

    Frankly I don't trust the Greens at all. And I'm saying that as an environmentalist who doesn't own a car myself and actually cycles to work every day, despite being able to easily afford a car.

    Many of the green party policies are actually bad for the environment once you look at them closely!!

    Just because you don't build a nice new road, doesn't mean people and trucks are going to stop using the old roads. It just means they are going to be stopped in traffic for hours pumping out CO2, rather then cruising down motorways in 5th gear, uncongested motorways actually reduce emissions. That is why the northern european countries who have the best environmental policies also happen to have the best road networks in the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 696 Transport21 Fan


    WhiteAp wrote:
    Reminds me of the Frankfurt-Cologne ICE train route. The old route used to take nigh on 2 hours for the winding 180km journey. Not too bad you might say, but being Germans they decide to build a straight route. Building 30 tunnels and 17 viaducts. It took 6 years to build, but came in on time & on budget and now you can whizz between the two cities in around an hour...

    The best railway line I have used anywhere in the world, and the "old railway" it replaced (supplemented, in reality) would be light years away from Irish Rail and even further ahead in terms of technology and services than what CIE are planning for 2020.

    The new Frankfurt-Cologne ICE line is fast because most of it is built on "stilts" yet in Ireland this is consider a joke. For reasons I will never understand - the Irish make fun of stilts being suggested for the Red Cow roundabout when it would have solved the problem there.

    the best modern rail systems in the world rely heavily on "stilts", "Piers" etc - only in Ireland are they look upon as a joke. The CTRL in the UK is stilts-galore.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 696 Transport21 Fan


    murphaph wrote:
    he simply answered;"none of the ones between the major cities"

    Has anyone else noticed how the Greens have become less and less "Green" as election day approaches.

    By Wednesday I half expect them to be wearing Healy-Rea tweed caps and demanding that farmers be allowed to drink and drive at this rate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,134 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    The new Frankfurt-Cologne ICE line is fast because most of it is built on "stilts" yet in Ireland this is consider a joke. For reasons I will never understand - the Irish make fun of stilts being suggested for the Red Cow roundabout when it would have solved the problem there.
    I think what was laughed at was he used the word "stilts" instead of "columns". Phoenix Magazine had a cartoon with a tram with stilts, not a bridge with stilts.

    Of course he himself is known as the Miniature.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,134 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    bk wrote:
    Just because you don't build a nice new road, doesn't mean people and trucks are going to stop using the old roads. It just means they are going to be stopped in traffic for hours pumping out CO2, rather then cruising down motorways in 5th gear, uncongested motorways actually reduce emissions. That is why the northern european countries who have the best environmental policies also happen to have the best road networks in the world.
    And the people in those countries take the train to work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,133 Slice


    Portugal's polulation is twice that of Ireland (inc NI) and is connected to continental Europe. When is it projected that ours will reach 10m?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 Zoney


    Wonder how many roads we have with 52,000 AADT as D2m? Some.
    Wonder how many roads we have with 52,000 AADT as S2? I dread to think.

    The NRA guideline capacity for D2M (standard two lane dual carriageway motorway) is AADT of 52,000 (AADT for 2+1 is 17,500.)

    Motorways/DCs exceeding AADT of 52,000 at present include the M7 Naas Bypass and M7 Newbridge Bypass up to the M9 junction. These should have been upgraded to D3M (dual three lane motorway) by this year at the latest. The N4/M4 past Lucan is also in excess of 52,000. Bear in mind that the N4 and N7 are the two main trunk routes (other primary roads branch off them) in the country, serving probably about 2/3s of the island. As a result, the main capacity issues are approaching Dublin; once the N9, N8 and N6 branch off, the roads are not that heavily used (relative to busy places like Dublin or abroad). The N6 and N8 are only excessively busy approaching Galway and Cork, otherwise the main problems are poor road quality and need for bypasses. The N9 is busiest on the northern section as it serves Kilkenny (via N10) as well as Waterford.

    There are no S2 (standard two lane) roads with AADT anything like 52,000. Things are bad, but not remotely that bad. The S2s being upgraded even on the interurbans are now (i.e. since M1/M4/M7 were built) for the most part only requiring 2+1, but for future proofing two lane dual carriageway is quite sensible even on the N9 (north of Kilkenny at least). So we are in fact building for the future on these routes now. The M3 is building for the future too - AADT in 2006 near Tara was 18238 - too much for 2+1, but certainly two lane motorway will be most adequate.

    Two lane dual carriageway will be very future-proof on the N18 and N17 also. The N18 AADT at Gort for 2006 was about 11,000.

    Enough scaremongering. I don't agree with cutting back on our road building, but anyone who thinks it isn't on the extravagent side is road-mad or spending way too much time on the planning disaster that is Dublin (that's not exclusively a road problem; if you think it is you'll be building a stupid amount of roads till the cows come home). Start worrying about our public transport deficit instead.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,369 Mod ✭✭✭✭ spacetweek


    I totally disagree with the OP. By the time the current road building program is finished in 2010, we wil have future proofed most of the main roads in the country.

    In the case of Lisbon, this is the opposite extreme. 52000 vehicles is not enough to justify D4M. The capacity of a motorway in Ireland is 55000 vehicles so D4M would be enough for 110,000.

    Widening a road too quickly simply results in induced traffic. By providing 8 lanes for 52000 vehicles, you only eliminate congestion for a time, then the huge availability of unused capacity encourages lots of unnecessary driving.

    On the other hand, as pointed out so many times, railways in Ireland are not future proofed at all and in fact are not even adequate for the present.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,964 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Victor wrote:
    And the people in those countries take the train to work.

    Exactly, build a high quality road infrastructure and also build a high quality train infrastructure. If the trains are fast and efficient and serve high density areas, then people will leave their cars at home and take a train.

    It isn't one or the other, like the Greens make it, it is both. Do both well and it helps both people and the environment, win win for all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 873 ✭✭✭ steve-o


    spacetweek wrote:
    I totally disagree with the OP. By the time the current road building program is finished in 2010, we wil have future proofed most of the main roads in the country.
    But because of appalling planning that allows big suburban-type developments in rural areas, large sections of those roads will quickly become clogged for hours every day by long distance commuters who'll moan about tolls and campaign for widening of these roads.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 220 ✭✭ MLM


    The new Frankfurt-Cologne ICE line is fast because most of it is built on "stilts" yet in Ireland this is consider a joke. For reasons I will never understand - the Irish make fun of stilts being suggested for the Red Cow roundabout when it would have solved the problem there.
    If Seamas Brennan had used the term "elevated rail" people might have taken him more seriously. "Stilts" conjures up images of clowns and circus acts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,025 Ham'nd'egger


    I notice that this future proof bridge is built over 17KM of water; quite possibly this is the real reason why it is so wide at the onset. I also notice that this bridge was built privately and incurs a €2.20 per trip into Lisbon. Maybe we can try that idea on some of our bridges and roads.... ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 Zoney


    MLM wrote:
    If Seamas Brennan had used the term "elevated rail" people might have taken him more seriously. "Stilts" conjures up images of clowns and circus acts.

    Also people were deriding the situation of a government minister "musing" about possible solutions to something not only already planned, but already under construction. Yeah, elevated rail across the junction would have been possible, but wouldn't magically have happened and would have cost a fortune to stick into the design.

    I'll admit too that although it seemed a long wait and big mistake at the time, it would have been irresponsible to go to such effort and expense when the junction as a whole was going to be ripped up anyway. I can be cynical about things, but in this instance I presume that's why they went for the cheap and cheerful at-grade crossings in the first place at design time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,134 ✭✭✭✭ Victor


    Victor wrote:
    I think what was laughed at was he used the word "stilts" instead of "columns". Phoenix Magazine had a cartoon with a tram with stilts, not a bridge with stilts.
    Attached.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,369 Mod ✭✭✭✭ spacetweek


    Victor wrote:
    Attached.
    I never thought before that anyone was thinking along those lines! Eejits. Have they never seen an elevated railway before?


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