"Weapons & Defacement of Public Property"

Sully

Hi all..

Lets just say this is a hypothetical situation.

I was parked beside a Petrol Station (car park of some old store) just sitting around, after placing (as a joke) a "Vote for Waterford" monopoly poster on a big Fina Fail political sign. Gardai saw one of my friends at the boot of the car (getting a phone) and drove in. There were three, but only two approached at the start.

First asked me for my driving license, and was about to question where my full-driver was when I pointed out he was holding a certificate of competance. Two of the cops then started saying it was a "copy" which I took as another word for "forge". When I informed them it was genuine, they wouldnt listen. They asked why I hadnt applied for a driving license, I told them I didnt as my Dad said not to bother as there was no hurry. Didnt seem to believe me and told me I have to apply.

Then checked and spotted the insurance was out a few days (little did I realise that "05-07" is not the date of expiry, but there is an exact date on the cert) and after some debate, asked me to present proof that I was insured to drive the car within 10 days.

Then asked I open the boot, which I did. On doing so, one Guard searched around the front. After a brief look at the boot, I was asked permission to take a further look - which he did, and found work tools belonging to my dad. Asked who he was and what he did, I explained he was an ex-guard and that he does odd jobs using tools like that in my brothers/sisters house. Took details down in his notebook and said he will be checking to see if he was an ex-guard.

He then went and asked the girl in the front seat to step out and searched the contents of the car, without permission. He found stuff such as a stanely knife (asked me about it, then told me to put it in the boot) which has been in the car ages, and a bill addressed to my grandmother. He asked the girls in the car my name, and pointed out "thats not with this says". My girlfriend read it, and pointed out it was my grandmother.

My male friend was asked to step out of the car, and asked him permission to search him. He agreed, and was asked did he have anything sharp. He had tools (plyers, marker and stanely knife) and said Yes, showed them and told him he was working in his grandfathers house helping him with repairs. They searched him and found two phones and made a comment "Two phones eh? Whys that"? he explained. Asked his grandfathers job, and how long he was retired - he answered. Third guard joined in after coming out of the van. We were both asked our jobs, and told him accordingly. (Chipper & AOL)

I was asked to empty my pockets, and show the contents. Nothing but some money and keys. He then searched me, without asking permission. Found nothing else. So, took down my details and told me he would be informing my father (as he is the owner of the car) of what happened. They also took down names, addresses and ages of two of the girls in the car. Same with my male friend, but was asked for his mobile number. My girlfriend is 18 next Tuesday, was told her mother would be called also and informed.

On spotting the poster, two of them laughed and said "a bit immature" while the other said it was "defacing political posters". I was asked to take it down and did (It was held on with tape). Third guard then starting getting angry and said that "because of people like you" they had to wear stab vests, and "Do you think we like wearing them" and "Crime has gone to an all new level". Also that someone could mug him and use the stanely to slit his throat (in reference to my friend). One guard told us it was an offence to carry these tools, unless it was our trade, in the car our on us. As a result, he would be taking the lad who had the tools in his jumper to court and "if convicted, you will have a criminal record". I apologised and said we meant no harm, and were not aware of the legalitys until now. I asked that he do not take it further. Third guard hears me and shouts "Do you think because your fathers an ex cop you can get away with this?" and I said "I never mentioned him until you asked, and am asking in general as we both have no record or any dealing with the guards in the past". He got in the van and turned it away. After asking us many times had we a record or any dealings before, one guard said "I will confiscate these tools and leave it as a caution.". I was then asked by the other "Is your Dad still up" and I said "No, he is in the pub and I will be collecting him shortly". He said "I will be calling early in the morning".

What ye think? Would be pretty shocked, but I can see (somewat) where they would be coming from. (All except one is over 18, had no alchol or drugs on them or in their system)

johnnyskeleton

Unless such a person was convicted of possession of a knife, the Gardai would ultimately have to return the tools.

Sully

He was let of with a caution - but never offerd them back. Would it be pushing to ask for it back? He took a plyers, marker and a stanely knife.

Told the father this morning, wasnt best pleased with it all. (Both sides)

mick.fr

As the owner your father should go to the station to get his stuff back.

Sully

mick.fr wrote:

As the owner your father should go to the station to get his stuff back.

They never took what belonged to my father. They took what belonged to my friend, and cautioned him. Id hate to go back and them turn around and say "Well, we will presue with the case then".

yournamehere

you had NO INSURANCE
you defaced a political campaign poster
you had no original cert of competency in lieu of a full driving licence.
you had a stanley kinife in the front of the car.
your friend had a knife on his person, an indictable offence.

count yourself lucky all you got was a warning. no insurance is reckless, selfish and dangerous, think of the implications if you'd been in an accident.


and your father is displeased with the way the guards handled it??????

You submitted to searches.

as per national safety council:

"Driving without insurance is generally punishable by a fine of up to EUR2,500, disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and, at the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months"

seamus

It's not an offence to carry tools if they are not part of your trade. It can however be interpreted as an offence if you can't show any good reason why you would be carrying those tools.

Your mate should go and get his tools back. If they took the stuff from your car, then your father should go and get his tools back.

you had NO INSURANCE
you defaced a political campaign poster
you had no original cert of competency in lieu of a full driving licence.

I'm agreeing with this man. You were lucky. The first two paragraphs of your post show that you had set yourself up as extremely suspicious. Hanging around a petrol station, not doing anything. 3/4 people in the vehicle, no insurance, no full licence, boxes of tools, multiple mobiles. Practically screams "thieves" tbh.

Sully

yournamehere wrote:

you had NO INSURANCE

The insurance was out 2 days. We are waiting for One Direct to send out our disc. We are fully taxed, and past discs of both insurance and tax is present.

you defaced a political campaign poster

Fair enough, I just tapped on something to it. Not really defacement.

you had no original cert of competency in lieu of a full driving licence.

When I passed my test, this was what I was given. This is the first time a guard has told me it is not what I should have been given.

you had a stanley kinife in the front of the car.

Valid reason - its my dads car and he does lots of work like that now that he is retired. He has lots of tools in the car, and often has his toolbox in the car.

your friend had a knife on his person, an indictable offence.

After coming from doing a job for his grandfather. A valid reason.

count yourself lucky all you got was a warning. no insurance is reckless, selfish and dangerous, think of the implications if you'd been in an accident.


and your father is displeased with the way the guards handled it??????

You submitted to searches.

as per national safety council:

"Driving without insurance is generally punishable by a fine of up to EUR2,500, disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and, at the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months"

Again, the insurance was out 2 days. TWO days. Its not our fault, we renewed it in time - OneDirect are ALWAYS late sending out discs. We have FULL proof showing we renewed it in time.

Note: I only gave permission for the BOOT to be searched. I was never asked is it OK if we search the car, or you individualy.

Sully

seamus wrote:

It's not an offence to carry tools if they are not part of your trade. It can however be interpreted as an offence if you can't show any good reason why you would be carrying those tools.

Your mate should go and get his tools back. If they took the stuff from your car, then your father should go and get his tools back.

Cheers.

I'm agreeing with this man. You were lucky. The first two paragraphs of your post show that you had set yourself up as extremely suspicious. Hanging around a petrol station, not doing anything. 3/4 people in the vehicle, no insurance, no full licence, boxes of tools, multiple mobiles. Practically screams "thieves" tbh.

Let me expand. I had insurance - its out 2 days, not our fault our provider cant send out details on time. (ie we renewed it in time, they always call us)

We were parked beside the station as there really is nowhere else to go. We often grab some food and eat it there. We normaly go here, or if out in Tramore - park at the beach. Lots of people do it and are very rarley told to leave.

I dont see how a full car is suspicous.

2 mobiles on one person. The second mobile belonged to one of the girls in the car. He went out to get the mobile from the boot, and was searched before he handed it back.

Nobody in the car had any prior dealings with the Guards, and have never been in any court room.

johnnyskeleton

Sully wrote:

I dont see how a full car is suspicous.

The hypothetical person in this scenario might unfortunately be living in a hypothetical world where the mere suggestion that a crime might be committed could land them in trouble. At present, people (i.e. juries) seem to be very pro-garda and there is the idea that the gardai wouldn't be hassling someone about things like this unless the garda had indside info on the person. I think this is a very dangerous attitude for people to have. No one should be convicted on circumstantial evidence alone.

As regars possession of a knife or other tools, I think generally that the gardai should use their discretion and give the benefit of the doubt. It is, in my view, very reasonable to keep tools in a car. Even if you don't need them for a trade or to do odd jobs, there is something in the male mind that says "I own a house/car/piece of furniture, I need to have tools in case I need to fix it."

I will not comment on what such a hypothetical person should do, because, I'm sorry to say, I am not entirely certain that this is a hypothetical situation.

seamus

Sully wrote:

Let me expand. I had insurance - its out 2 days, not our fault our provider cant send out details on time. (ie we renewed it in time, they always call us)

We were parked beside the station as there really is nowhere else to go. We often grab some food and eat it there. We normaly go here, or if out in Tramore - park at the beach. Lots of people do it and are very rarley told to leave.

I dont see how a full car is suspicous.

2 mobiles on one person. The second mobile belonged to one of the girls in the car. He went out to get the mobile from the boot, and was searched before he handed it back.

Nobody in the car had any prior dealings with the Guards, and have never been in any court room.

Whatever your actual situation, you have to concede that you looked dodgy. Groups of young people hanging around petrol stations in cars - possible trouble. Your car was failing to display a valid insurance disc - that in itself is an offence, even if you do have insurance. That Gardai had no way of knowing that you have insurance.

yournamehere

You didn't explain the situation very coherently:

"the insurance was out a few days (little did I realise that "05-07" is not the date of expiry, but there is an exact date on the cert) and after some debate, asked me to present proof that I was insured to drive the car within 10 days".


You did not explain it was paid and renewed and all documentation filed, merely waiting for disc to arrive. Get letter/fax from broker/insurance co. direct explaining policy is filed and paid.


"My male friend was asked to step out of the car, and asked him permission to search him. He agreed"

He was not carrying it in the course of trade, ie if he was he would be licenced to do so. He should not have been carrying it on his person, but safely placed in a secure locked boxed or likewise.


"After a brief look at the boot, I was asked permission to take a further look - which he did, and found work tools belonging to my dad."

That's your original post, implies you gave consent.


Then you say:

"Note: I only gave permission for the BOOT to be searched. I was never asked is it OK if we search the car, or you individualy."


Look bottom line you're in the wrong. As said you initiated trouble by defacing the poster, you had no valid insurance disk (i know insurer's fault) but you had no letter from guards/broker/company saying policy had been renewed and filed. Two stanley knives may look suspicious and excessive, you can see how the guards were concerned.


Take it as a lesson learnt. Don't be so naive in future. And stay away from campign posters :cool:

Sully

seamus wrote:

Whatever your actual situation, you have to concede that you looked dodgy. Groups of young people hanging around petrol stations in cars - possible trouble. Your car was failing to display a valid insurance disc - that in itself is an offence, even if you do have insurance. That Gardai had no way of knowing that you have insurance.

I completely agree, I didnt think about it looking weird at first but afterwards we agreed - bad spot to park!

The insurance disk, well thats out of our control. We cant force them to send it out in time! However, they didnt say much about the insurance disk - just to prove it within 10 days.

Sully

yournamehere wrote:

You did not explain it was paid and renewed and all documentation filed, merely waiting for disc to arrive. Get letter/fax from broker/insurance co. direct explaining policy is filed and paid.

Sorry about that. When it all happened, all I knew it was due this month but my Dad deals with that and shops around for the best deals (does it for all of us!). What I was not aware of, was there was an actual date on the certificate. I told them that. I only found out today that its paid, and he is waiting for it to arrive.

He was not carrying it in the course of trade, ie if he was he would be licenced to do so. He should not have been carrying it on his person, but safely placed in a secure locked boxed or likewise.

Its not his trade alright - but nobody thought it was illegal to have it in the first place. He apologised, and explained why he had them. It didnt even dawn on him about it until asked! But, they took issue with it and confiscated them saying they could be used as weapons.

Tools in the car, were not removed, but were told they have to be.

"After a brief look at the boot, I was asked permission to take a further look - which he did, and found work tools belonging to my dad."

That's your original post, implies you gave consent.

You mis understood, and I guess I should have been more clearer. He was looking at the boot, and then asked to look further - in the BOOT. Not anywhere else. Also note, before I was asked - they searched the front. They were in the middle of searching the front, before I was asked about a further look in the boot only.

Then asked I open the boot, which I did. On doing so, one Guard searched around the front.

Look bottom line you're in the wrong. As said you initiated trouble by defacing the poster, you had no valid insurance disk (i know insurer's fault) but you had no letter from guards/broker/company saying policy had been renewed and filed. Two stanley knives may look suspicious and excessive, you can see how the guards were concerned.

The only grounds they had when doing a search was;
A) Car was parked with a group of people beside a petrol station.
Insurance out TWO days.

No drink on anybody, or drugs. Clearly sober. No objections or any hassle from anyone. We were friendly towards them as best as possible.

They then began a search of the car, and my friend. I agree that the tools were excessive, but thats just how our car is - tools and lots of stuff thrown around the place, as he uses them a lot. I explained all that. It looks further suspicous, but they didnt care for our explanation.

A simple call to the Guards in Tramore would have confirmed a lot of the mis-hap around this. He didnt believe my license, insurance, father being an ex-cop, (again, I was ASKED what his job was -- I did not say it on purpose), us having a clean record with no court attendance ever, and us having no dealings with the guards in anyway (including the car - we all have clean licenses) etc.

Take it as a lesson learnt. Don't be so naive in future. And stay away from campign posters :cool:

Indeed! We will be keeping the tools in the car, but in the boot in one of the side pockets. Not to sure whats the story with the insurance, but a phone call to the station to sort the mess out is being done tonight.

We all apologised and agreed it looked weird, and two of the guards seemed OK about it but it was just the one who was agreesive and rude towards us. Any worry in us would have been clear as daylight with his pushy attitude towards us.

But ya, we wont be going near any more posters and will be parking in well light areas in future!

Cheers for the comments anyway lads, interesting to know what this type of situation would turn out to be. Dont worry, id never quote anyone here or think "what they said is law" if this ever did arrise. Just curious! Your comments are appreciated.

Our man in Havana

I would be making an application to the district court under the police property act for the return of the items that were taken.

dermot_sheehan

As Bond says apply under police property act in district court to get stuff back

Also the law prohibits the posession of knives in a public place without good cause, the offensive weapons act says that having them for trade is evidence of good cause.

Firstly inside your car isn't a public place, secondly you just need to show good cause (which may or may not be trade related),

regarding the insurance, there are two offences, 1 is not being insured and I'm suprised they would let you off that, it carries hefty fines and a mandatory driving ban

there is a second less serious offence of having valid insurance on the car but failing to display the insurance disc which carries a minor fine.

It's perfectly legal for you to drive on your own with a licence and certificate of competency (just not on motorways) check the licencing of drivers regulations 1999. Get the full licence though as the certificate expires after 2 years and youll have to resit the test if it does.

Sully

gabhain7 wrote:

As Bond says apply under police property act in district court to get stuff back

He doesnt want the bother. I think hes scared that this may attract unwanted attention.

Also the law prohibits the posession of knives in a public place without good cause, the offensive weapons act says that having them for trade is evidence of good cause.

He was doing other work today when I picked him up, but he was sure to leave them behind :P But ya, we were not aware that tools (plyers espically) would be considered "weapons" in general. Now that we are aware, it wont happen again (besides what we will leave in the car).

regarding the insurance, there are two offences, 1 is not being insured and I'm suprised they would let you off that, it carries hefty fines and a mandatory driving ban

We are insured. OneDirect failed to send out a disc as of yet. I found out that last Wednesday when he paid "it would arrive tommrow" they told him. But, apparently, they called back looking for more money saying that "things have changed" and my da refused to pay more on the basis he stuck with them because of the terms agreed with the staff, and he paid into those terms. They said OK, and would contact him later regarding the final outcome (however, he had paid for insurance at this stage).

After what happened, he will be calling tmrow to see what the story is. But, apparently, its proper practice in the guards to give a few days grace for no tax & insurance. Its only a few days out.

Again - We ARE insured. OneDirect are being slow at doing their job.

It's perfectly legal for you to drive on your own with a licence and certificate of competency (just not on motorways) check the licencing of drivers regulations 1999. Get the full licence though as the certificate expires after 2 years and youll have to resit the test if it does.

Yes, and thats what annoyed me. He instructed me to get a new license straight away!

yournamehere

hypothetically speaking of course.

indough

I don't think you should be giving this guy grief, its obvious that the guards were just being pricks because they failed to see the funny side of defacing the poster.

Those bloody posters are annoying anyway, why should we be bombarded with them? Its alright for them to invade our space with their campaign posters but we get grief for messing about with a couple of them, its not as though there aren't enough to make up for it.

cast_iron

The insurance being 2 days out shouldn't be a problem. The companies usually give a number of days grace period. That's probably why the Gardai didn't pursue it. Not alone that, but once you prove it was insured, you generally don't have to pay the non-display fine.

But there may be a different catch with your insurance. Most companies require you to notify them if you intend carrying tools in your vehicle. While it wouldn't matter in this case currently (as they don't know about it), if a Garda did want to do you for something (and bringing him to court to get these tools back would give him enough reason), life could get a bit more complicated.

You (or the hypothetical you) were no angel in this case, so I'd leave things as is and not start any arguments with the Gardai. Take after your friend - it's not worth the attention and hassle.

seamus

indough wrote:

I don't think you should be giving this guy grief, its obvious that the guards were just being pricks because they failed to see the funny side of defacing the poster.

Yeah, that's right. Criminal damage is only wrong when it's not funny :rolleyes:

Gardai have a job to uphold the law. We give out when they don't do it, and then we give out when they do. How can they win?

seamus

cast_iron wrote:

But there may be a different catch with your insurance. Most companies require you to notify them if you intend carrying tools in your vehicle.

Surely though that only applies where the vehicle is being used as a work tool - i.e. getting to specific jobs, not just commuting - or being used to carry good belonging to the business (perhaps tools that belong to my employer).
If I want to give my brother a hand with some work in his house, surely I'm perfectly entitled to drive over there with my toolbox, on my standard class 1(?) insurance?

Sully

I think people are mis-understanding the "defacment" side. It was not any ordinary poster. It was a very very large billboard on a trailer. We put up an A4 poster right beside him. It didnt mock him or make any reference to any political issue. Nor did it block Berty or Martin Cullen, nor the party name or logo.

If anybody saw the billboard with our poster, they have no reason to complain - unless they object to the fact that something non-political related was added to a poster (again, not blocking anything - apart from the background colour). Its tiny in comparsment and does not affect or make any mockery of it at all. There are posters being cut down or vandalised with graffiti regulary in both Waterford city and Tramore. We did nothing to that affect.

Poster Image (see attached).

Also, there was comments made by the cops which were not appreciated. Fair enough they were doing their job to some degree, but to tell me my license is a fake, search the car (without permission), intemidate us (scared the **** out of the girls), tell the girlfriend her "mother would be contacted" when she clearly had nothing to do with it, frisk and empty my pockets (without my permission), order me to get a full drivers license immediately, ignore any explanation we tried to give (we were shouted abuse at instead), state that one of us would be brought to court and "may be convicted and have a criminal record" and generaly shout abuse at us when we tried to be nothing but civil to them - was unappropriate. Seriously, how are we supposed to respect them if they treat us like rags? We were all brought up to treat Guards with respect and do whatevery they asked. It was a case of "Guilty until proven inncoent" and inocence was hard to prove when anytime we spoke we were shouted at.

Nobody in the group was dressed or in anyway looked suspicous. The car was a 04 Toyota Avensis. A simple check would have confirmed the car belonged to an ex-cop (when asked who my father was and asked to state his job, he didnt believe me) and neither member of the group had a criminal record or have any dealings with Guards (he didnt believe us on this either). I in NO WAY asked to be "let of" because of my Dad and I supported their reasons for coming in and asking questions. I thanked them for caring, and even at the end I told them that I honestly have nothing against them despite their claims and we mean no harm.

We were nothing but helpful, and objected to nothing. We accommodated them as best as possible and even tried to ease the tension by chatting about Monopoly Campaign and their Stab Vests. No comments that were rude or unappropriate were ever made by us. Fact.

Im sure some of you wont belive me, but its the truth. We never set out to do any harm, and no harm was done by us.

Anyway, I think ill leave it at that. Nothing else to be said, and I fully appreciate the feedback given by everyone here.

Cheers.

SLOOPY

Also, there was comments made by the cops which were not appreciated.

Nothing new from the Ballybricken "PLOD".

generaly shout abuse at us when we tried to be nothing but civil to them - was unappropriate.

Par for the course with them i'm afraid.Some are approachable and civil,but most are not.They ask you to empty you're pockets and when you comply,they start shouting and screaming at you just for doing as they have asked.

Seriously, how are we supposed to respect them if they treat us like rags?

With Difficulty.It's not easy to treat someone with respect,when,they treat you like a piece of s-hit.:mad:

It was a case of "Guilty until proven inncoent" and inocence was hard to prove when anytime we spoke we were shouted at.

Unfortunately,that seems to be the way with the Cops in Waterford.:mad:

Normally i would say steer clear of them,but,as your dad is an ex-Cop he will more than likely know someone on that shift who would be able to sort it out and get the tools returned to your mate.

cast_iron

Seamus, you may be right on that insurance policy. I'd have to check the actual wording if it.

OP, as for the "guilty till proven innocent" statement, I'm not so sure:

You had NO INSURANCE displayed;
You defaced a political campaign poster (however menial);
Your friend had a knife on his person.

....got away with it all, and still feel hard done by.


Simply put, Gardai tend to take 1 of 2 approaches:
1. Nice as pie, everything by the book, and a few charges to follow;
2. Give you a boll0cking, rough you up a little, and let you on your way, hoping you'll learn your lesson.

I'm guessing most people would settle for option 2.