25nl hand

cooker3

No real reads on villian, 29/20/2 over 40 hands.
Just gotten to the table not done anything

Seat 1: Freebsgotya ($25.50)
Seat 2: simonbda ($39.25), is sitting out
Seat 3: cooker3 ($25)
Seat 4: JNuey ($30.75)
Seat 5: NutJuggler ($23.60)
Seat 6: mrturtlehead ($31.20)
cooker3 posts the small blind of $0.10
JNuey posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cooker3 [Jd Js]
NutJuggler folds
mrturtlehead raises to $0.85
Freebsgotya folds
simonbda stands up
cooker3 raises to $2.50
JNuey folds
mrturtlehead calls $1.65
*** FLOP *** [6d 9s 3d]
cooker3 checks
mrturtlehead bets $4
cooker3 calls $4
*** TURN *** [6d 9s 3d] [8s]
cooker3 checks
mrturtlehead bets $24.70, and is all in

What do you put him on, call or fold?

cooker3

phantom_lord wrote:

and you 3bet him with jj???

Thats his af, he is 20 for pf raises. I assume your getting mixed up.
3 betting is standard there.

RedJoker

I hate your line on the flop. I'd lead for between 4 & 5.

I think that you've shown so much weakness and your opponent is so aggressive that you may have induced a bluff here. I call.

RedJoker

I agree that preflop is fine.

phantom_lord

yeah, I got mixed up there.


flop play is fine. I'm guessing you've induced a bluff, or maybe he has asks or something.

cooker3

RedJoker wrote:

I hate your line on the flop. I'd lead for between 4 & 5.

I think that you've shown so much weakness and your opponent is so aggressive that you may have induced a bluff here. I call.

Do you c/r?

tbh, I have no idea why I didn't bet it looking back at it now, normally I would.

shoutman

Yea as redjoker says you have totally underrepped your hand.
I have no idea why you didnt bet the flop, I think check raising is a bad idea as I think at this level especially you are only getting called by something that has you beat a lot of the time, as played I call expecting to be well ahead.

RedJoker

cooker3 wrote:

Do you c/r?

tbh, I have no idea why I didn't bet it looking back at it now, normally I would.

Yes, had I checked I would c/r. You have gotten absolutely no information about his hand postflop. The board is draw heavy and any a, k or q on the turn could put you behind.

From the preflop play I think the only hand beating us right now is a set. He would probably 4bet aa, kk and qq. Don't think two pair is likely. Possible that he has some combo draw.

Marq

At this level I go broke with overpairs for breakfast.

BuChan

i'd probably raise a little more preflop and certainly lead the flop, check calling the flop is giving free cards with a pretty vulnerable holding. you've underrepresented your hand so i think it's a pretty easy call.

RoadSweeper

tbh i'd call the all in.

You played the hand post flop like a draw and he may well be protecting it.

also at this level you'll see A9 and muck like that all the time.

Rod & Reel

Jj. He Calls 2.50 From An Original Raise He Made. Flop Looks Like Rags. U Check, Looks Like U R Playin Ak Aq Aj. For U To Check Call The Flop With Jj On That Flop Was Looking For Trouble, For Starters He Might Have Ak And U Letting The Turn Come Down No Matter What It Was Was Not Rite. If An A Or K Does Fall Ur Beat. If He Was Playing Ak. As It Looks From The Flop I Put Him On 88,

Marq

move up capitals.

Mr.Plough

Marq wrote:

move up capitals.

lol


edit - i posted this after i made my next post. odd

Mr.Plough

bet the flop.

he bets 24 into a pot of like 10 after youve shown what looks like weakness.

if he has anything that beats you he should be taking you to value town.


definite call.

unless he's like many 25nl players who just jam when they hit, which he may well be.

but i call anyway because im a donkey

Chucky the tree

Marq wrote:

move up capitals.

And people wonder why new people dont really want to post here?

Marq

to be fair my post only looks mean now because phantom_lord deleted his.

phantom_lord

Marq wrote:

to be fair my post only looks mean now because phantom_lord deleted his.

I realised mine wasn't as relevent as I first thought, I'll put it back up if you like.

Sparky1808

I call here everytime.

If he has QQ+ so be it, but the majority of the time he's playing a hand like 77 etc. or a silly part of the board and basically trying to outplay you.

phantom_lord

am i the only one that doesn't mind the flop check?

valor

the flop check is totally fine

Marq

phantom_lord wrote:

am i the only one that doesn't mind the flop check?

no.

Chucky the tree

why check the flop though? 3 betting pf then checking a flop looks awfully weak and screams of AK. If he leads the flop and turn he wont be left with a tough all-in decision unless the Vilan goes over the top, and if he does then chances are your beaten so its an easy fold.

Your also allowing AK-AQ to get a free card by checking.

BuChan

phantom_lord wrote:

am i the only one that doesn't mind the flop check?

why give free cards with JJ, is that not over complicating things? also you reraised preflop so it's only natural to bet the flop. why would you check the flop?

phantom_lord

Chucky the tree wrote:

why check the flop though? 3 betting pf then checking a flop looks awfully weak and screams of AK.

what's wrong with that?

Your also allowing AK-AQ to get a free card by checking.

ak/aq has 6outs, so it's something like 7 or 8/1 to outdrawn jj on the turn. not much of a concern.

Chucky the tree

phantom_lord wrote:

what's wrong with that?



ak/aq has 6outs, so it's something like 7 or 8/1 to outdrawn jj on the turn. not much of a concern.

By making your hand look weak though your are going to enduce a shove by the turn to stop you from fishing, why put yourself in a position to have to make that difficult call?

QQ or KK would not go over the top of your bet because the Villan could be think hero has AA due to the strong re-raise pf. If Villan has AK-AQd's your are facing alot more outs.

Why not bet the flop to try get as much money into the pot as possible? What if the villan checks aswell, most people at this level will bet the flop no matter what and then fold if the turn doesnt improve them.

phantom_lord

Chucky the tree wrote:

By making your hand look weak though your are going to enduce a shove by the turn to stop you from fishing, why put yourself in a position to have to make that difficult call?

because it's +ev. why would you not want to look weak so a worse hand shoves?

QQ or KK would go over the top of your bet because the Villan could be think hero has AA due to the strong re-raise pf.

betting isn't gonna get qq/kk to fold, and why would the villain raise the flop bet if thinks cooker3 has aa?

If Villan has AK-AQd's your are facing alot more outs.

adkd is ahead of jj on the flop, and betting doesn't achieve anything good against this part of his range.

Why not bet the flop to try get as much money into the pot as possible?

not many worse hands call, but:

most people at this level will bet the flop no matter what and then fold if the turn doesnt improve them.

checking induces a bluff from stuff like ak that would fold to a bet. and underreps his hand so he gets called down lighter.

Chucky the tree

phantom_lord wrote:

betting isn't gonna get qq/kk to fold, and why would the villain raise the flop bet if thinks cooker3 has aa?

I meant that if Villan has QQ-KK and Hero leads villan wont re-raise all-in as he could put hero on AA.

phantom_lord wrote:

not many worse hands call, but:

At that level alot of people with AK-AQ and even low pocket pairs gladly call until the turn at the very least.

BuChan

do we really have to check and trap with every hand in this way? sure AK would probably fold and only has 6 outs but he's certainly gettting a nice price to hit any of them when you check. what's wrong with just taking down a nice simple pot with jj on the flop and moving on?

Captain Tom

what's wrong with trying to maximise our EV in every pot we play?

phantom_lord

BuChan wrote:

do we really have to check and trap with every hand in this way? sure AK would probably fold and only has 6 outs but he's certainly gettting a nice price to hit any of them when you check. what's wrong with just taking down a nice simple pot with jj on the flop and moving on?

not much really, but i think there's more value in repping ak, than in betting and repping aa.


like if the flop and turn check induced a shove from 1010/ak/aq or w/e isn't that a whole lot better than just taking down a simple pot with a c-bet?

phantom_lord

Chucky the tree wrote:

I meant that if Villan has QQ-KK and Hero leads villan wont re-raise all-in as he could put hero on AA.

At that level alot of people with AK-AQ and even low pocket pairs gladly call until the turn at the very least.

if he puts the hero on AA why would he call down light?

RedJoker

Check calling is fine if you are looking to induce a bluff and are willing to play for stacks with jj. What if an a, k, q or diamond comes on the turn (17 cards), do you still call the push?

Since it was 3bet preflop, the pot is big enough for me on the flop, I'm happy to take it down there with only one pair. Most opponents will fold to the continuation bet here, nearly everybody plays fit or fold poker at this level, especially if it's been 3bet preflop, just one of the reasons 3 betting is so profitable.

Chucky the tree

phantom_lord wrote:

if he puts the hero on AA why would he call down light?

He wouldnt put him on AA, but it would be in the back of his mind.

BuChan

phantom_lord wrote:

not much really, but i think there's more value in repping ak, than in betting and repping aa.

i suppose. playing in this style means that you have to have a very good idea of where you are all the time and will have to make some tough laydowns. also you can only do this sometimes right? you can't alway be checking with made hands and cbetting with missed AKs and draws.

Sparky1808

phantom_lord wrote:

am i the only one that doesn't mind the flop check?

I think the check on the flop is fine, as it's going to erase any idea of an overpair out of our opponent's mind. He's now going to put us on two over cards to the board and since it's came 4 cards below a 10. He's going to try and move us off the pot with a middle pair or with pure crap.

...and ka-ching we take the pot with JJ!

cooker3

*yawn* only gotten up.
Anyway for ther results orientated people. I decided for reasons stated above that I my hand looked weak and also I didn't see what he could play so strongly that beat me so I called.

*** TURN *** [6d 9s 3d] [8s]
cooker3 checks
mrturtlehead bets $24.70, and is all in
cooker3 has 15 seconds left to act
cooker3 calls $18.50, and is all in
mrturtlehead shows [9c 6c]
cooker3 shows [Jd Js]
Uncalled bet of $6.20 returned to mrturtlehead
*** RIVER *** [6d 9s 3d 8s] [5h]
mrturtlehead shows two pair, Nines and Sixes
cooker3 shows a pair of Jacks
mrturtlehead wins the pot ($47.75) with two pair, Nines and Sixes

I certainly didn't have that in his range.

Goodluck2me

Chucky the tree wrote:

And people wonder why new people dont really want to post here?

or maybe they learn that its annoying, never do it again and they receive more advice long term a people dont mind reading their hands?
it was a fair point (this is such a clique!)

also i think the flop check is fine, but folding is def an option on the turn. i dont understand the mentality of someone who pushes all in after being checked to twice though with suhc a strong hand?

gilmour

for a minute i thought i was reading a hand that happened to me last week, exact same board at 25nl but obv not the same hand in question Btw at 25nl i see this kind of push done all the time on a turn card like the hand in question with 77. Its like a panic button they hit when they're not sure what to do.