Does anyone know a Rolls Royce specialist?

Caddyman

I have a Silver Shadow 2 that is leaking brake fluid from both height levelling valves and it only happened immediately after I had repaired a leaking brake pipe and I reckon it must be a related problem as its too much of a coincidence for both valves to go at the exact time, so I need a specialist who probably came across this before and can fix the cause before I get two more valves fitted, does anyone know if there is one in the North East/Dublin area?
I will travel even further afield if I have to.
Thanks in advance.............

junkyard

It could be a pump pressure problem, I had something similar on one of my Silver Shadows a couple of years ago. I had to get help in the U.K. nobody around Ireland knew anything about it.

Caddyman

Thats not exactly the news I wanted to hear but thanks all the same.........
who in the UK did you get to give you advise in the end?

Heres a pic of the old girl............

junkyard

Try Ivor Bleaney at www.ibclassiccars.co.uk he might be able to help.

Caddyman

Thanks Junkyard, I'll call him tomorrow!

Silvera

I have the phone number of a Dublin-based Rolls Royce specialist at home. I will post it later this week when I'm back home.

Caddyman

Silvera wrote:

I have the phone number of a Dublin-based Rolls Royce specialist at home. I will post it later this week when I'm back home.

Thanks Silvera, thats great news as she is leaking brake fluid badly now and I want her fixed for the mosney show on 10th June!!

I'll be waiting by the computer!!!!

ds20prefecture

What brake fluid did you use? I'm not at all sure, but I believe you can only use RR363 (which i think is DOT3 and castor oil mix) - DOT4, DOT5 or mineral fluid (LHM) will result in seal incompatibility in the suspension components.

Pliedes in the UK can overhaul your height correctors
http://www.citroen-hydraulics.com/rollsroyce.htm

If you've no luck with RR mechanics, you might consider trying some of the Citroen specialists. The braking system is very similar to an early DS, and the height correctors are comparatively simple devices. Where are you based?

EDIT: Sorry, see you're based in Dublin. Dolphin Motors in Clontarf knows Citroen bits well, but I don't know if he's ever looked at Rolls.

Caddyman

ds20prefecture wrote:

What brake fluid did you use? I'm not at all sure, but I believe you can only use RR363 (which i think is DOT3 and castor oil mix) - DOT4, DOT5 or mineral fluid (LHM) will result in seal incompatibility in the suspension components.

Pliedes in the UK can overhaul your height correctors
http://www.citroen-hydraulics.com/rollsroyce.htm

If you've no luck with RR mechanics, you might consider trying some of the Citroen specialists. The braking system is very similar to an early DS, and the height correctors are comparatively simple devices. Where are you based?

EDIT: Sorry, see you're based in Dublin. Dolphin Motors in Clontarf knows Citroen bits well, but I don't know if he's ever looked at Rolls.

Thanks ds20prefecture for the advise...........
I asked several men in garages and clubs and they all said that dot4 was the one to use...I even went online and spent hours researching the differences between the dots, which stands for department of transport and is an American standard and they all pointed to it being ok to use dot4 where dot 3 was originally used but not to use dot5 as it is made from some synthetic material....
any help I can get is appreciated, thanks...Caddyman

el tel

My next door neighbour has a Bentley T-series, if I see him around later I'll ask him if he knows of anyone who might be of help.

ds20prefecture

Caddyman wrote:

I asked several men in garages and clubs and they all said that dot4 was the one to use...I even went online and spent hours researching the differences between the dots, which stands for department of transport and is an American standard and they all pointed to it being ok to use dot4 where dot 3 was originally used but not to use dot5 as it is made from some synthetic material....

Sounds like good advice, but the Citroen systems (like your brakes) rely on the fluid both for transmission of pressure and for lubrication. I believe your Girling height correctors are of similar design. The rolls system was licensed from Citroen in the early 60s, when Citroen were using their red fluid ("LHS" or "liquide hydraulique synthétique") which was a blend of DOT3 brake fluid and castor oil for lubrication. While the exact formulation of RR363 is unknown (by me!), it is widely believed to be a direct copy of LHS and shares it's viscosity index and temperature behaviour. DOT4 has different characteristics to DOT3, but I don't believe it provides sufficient lubrication on it's own.

Without lubrication, your seals will quickly wear out and you'll leak.

Caddyman

[
Without lubrication, your seals will quickly wear out and you'll leak.[/QUOTE]

You certainly know your stuff DS.........I asked the Rolls Royce and Bently Car Club (UK) for help but they dont know of an Irish specialist and told me to contact a company in the Uk called P&A Wood for advise ( www.pa-wood.co.uk ) ...its frustrating , there must be somebody who can fix it and know exactly what to do about the fluid, you are the only person thus far who knows his onions about this issue!

I am going to email P&A Wood and see what they can do for me.....
thanks for all your help......Caddyman:)

junkyard

Just be careful of all the different advice, I ended up putting mine on a trailer and taking it to England to get it repaired. Three different mechanics had a cut off it here and cost me dearly.:(

ds20prefecture

Caddyman wrote:

you are the only person thus far who knows his onions about this issue!

That's the thing - I don't know it at all! I have somewhat of an amateur understanding of the principal of Citroen hydraulics, but I've no practical experience of Rolls Royce at all. For example, I thought the shadow had suspension spheres, like a DS. It doesn't, the spirit does.

Having said that, i've recently read a lot of bullsh1t about hydraulic rebuilds on a Rolls Royce shadow costing > €10000. €3000 rebuilds a DS's hydraulics which include brakes, gearchange, clutch, power steering, and suspension. All on the one system. The Rolls just has brakes and those wee height correcting valves.

As Junkyard says, be careful of advice like mine.

ds20prefecture

For what it's worth I would flush the system and fill it with RR363 before replacing any components. The valves are probably very simple devices, and are probably rebuildable with new seals if you had a diagram. Better to let the pros like Pliedes or P&A Wood do that.

A couple of other things you should consider with this car: DOT3 and DOT4 brake fluid is hygroscopic - i.e. it absorbs moisture from the air around it in the reservoir. This moisture becomes trapped in the fluid thereby changing it's boiling point, viscosity, corrosiveness and overall performance. Unlike normal cars, whose reservoirs are pretty much sealed against the atmosphere, the rolls (well certainly the early citroens) has an "open" reservoir. Therefore you need to change the fluid every 6 months to a year in humid climates like ours. Because RR363 is hard to find and expensive, this is often not done, which means that th hydraulic components are corroding from the inside out. Not good. Also, not good to have poor performance brake fluid when you need it most.

If you REALLY wanted to experiment, I know of a guy who has put thousands of miles on his 1957 DS running Canola (rapeseed oil) as the hydraulic fluid. This shares most of the characteristics of LHS (and therefore RR363) but is not hygroscopic, nor is it harmful to paint which is a nice bonus. It's also about 60c per litre in LIDL (as opposed to €20 per litre for RR363). The downside is some seal swelling and a smell of the chipper. Still, i'd bet it's better than raw dot4.

From the castrol web site

Castrol RR363
A special brake fluid for use in early Rolls Royce and Bentley vehicles, prior to 1980, fitted with a metal reservoir.
Replaces Castrol LHS2 in early Citroen hydraulic systems

junkyard

No offence intended DS, it's just I payed dearly for 3 different mechanics mistakes. My warning goes for the so called "experts" around the country.

ds20prefecture

junkyard wrote:

No offence intended DS, it's just I payed dearly for 3 different mechanics mistakes. My warning goes for the so called "experts" around the country.

None taken at all Junkyard. I think your advice is spot on.

MercMad

Would a workshop manual on CD help ?

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Rolls-Royce-and-Bentley-WORKSHOPS-MANUALS_W0QQitemZ270122167011QQihZ017QQcategoryZ72260QQcmdZViewItem

ds20prefecture

I'm fairly sure that shop manual pertains to the later mineral fluid based hydraulics.

el tel

Spoke to my neighbour who sends his 1968 Bentley to the UK for specialist service work and he advises that the Rolls Royce Enthusiasts Club http://www.rrec.co.uk/ may be able to give you some advice. There might be an Irish section in this club too. He also uses a place here for routine work - I'll post details once I get them.

3ps

There must be loads of guys who have these for wedding hire... and they can't rely on going to the UK all the time. Find an advert and ring them and ask what they do.

MercMad

There must be loads of guys who have these for wedding hire... and they can't rely on going to the UK all the time. Find an advert and ring them and ask what they do.

............they prbably dont do anything at all with them, hence peolple avoid ex-wedding Rollers like the plague. Maybe its the reason the guy was selling 14 on eBay. He proabably used them for a few years and never did much at all to them, now they all need serious money spent !

Caddyman

I've been away in Slovakia for the last few days and this is the first time I've checked in since Monday and I want to say thanks to all you have contributed to this thread, your comments and advise are very welcome....
Caddyman:)

Silvera

As promised, here are the contact details I have for the Rolls Royce specialist ...

CD Motors
Richmond Ave
Fairview
PH (01) 836 0636 (Colin)

I got these details some time ago and don't know how accurate they are...but has to be worth a call?!


Silvera.

Caddyman

Silvera wrote:

As promised, here are the contact details I have for the Rolls Royce specialist ...

CD Motors
Richmond Ave
Fairview
PH (01) 836 0636 (Colin)

I got these details some time ago and don't know how accurate they are...but has to be worth a call?!


Silvera.

Thanks Silvera, I'll call him tomorrow!

Caddyman:)

Caddyman

Silvera wrote:

As promised, here are the contact details I have for the Rolls Royce specialist ...

CD Motors
Richmond Ave
Fairview
PH (01) 836 0636 (Colin)

I got these details some time ago and don't know how accurate they are...but has to be worth a call?!


Silvera.

I got talking to him but he says hes too busy!!!

thanks anyway.

ds20prefecture

Did you try Noel Dolphin in Clontarf? There's also Kevin Barry in Walkinstown. Both are fimilar with Citroen hydraulics, so the rolls will seem tame by comparison.
Dolphin Motors 8333619
Don't have a number for Kevin Barry but I think he's in the book.

RoundyMooney

That's the new Ireland for you, full of Rolls Royces and other exclusive metal

Surely he could fit you in at some stage?

ds20prefecture

The problem with most mechanics today is they are very unwilling to deviate from the norm.

Any competent mechanic should be able to figure out (with some manuals) how the Rolls system works and how to repair it. If I can figure out (as a hobby) the hydraulic bits of a much more complex car within 4 years then a professional with nothing else to do should welcome a challenge or even a break from the norm.

Having said that, if someone were to approach me and ask me to write a video game in assembler I would baulk at it. I know how it would be done, I know roughly what's involved but I don't have the experience that would allow me make an estimate for the work or quote for it. It is very unlikely that my potential client would say "ah sure figure it out in your own time and bill me by the hour, and if it doesn't work sure at least you tried". That's what the mechanic faces.

Caddyman - are you averse to getting into this yourself?

jat

i wonder if you got your leak sorted i have just completed a brake and hydrulic pump overhaul on my 1968 shadow i made some of the specialist tools needed

jat

i wonder if you got your leak fixed i have just done a overhaul of my brake and hydraulic pumps caliper seals and brake pistons replaced rubber connector on steering colum i made some of the tools needed ie special socket for getting pumps out etc i am just about to replace a pump for a guy in new ross his is tapping like mad the spring in the pumps corrode and lose tension any hope you got sorted i will be in bantry at the end of june for RR weekend check out the 1968 blue shadow

Caddyman

thanks for your help lads, I am in the process of getting the old girl sorted with two reconditioned height control valves (£807.23 for the two of them) through www.flyingspares.com but when I return the old ones and they can see that they can also be reconditioned they then re-imburse my credit card with £150 for each so it won't be too bad and my brother in law is doing the fitting for me in his spare time so I didn't need to beg some of the mechanics that I spoke to.
The work is taking a few days longer than it should as flyingspares sent me two left valves!
Sorry for slow reply but I was away in France and Slovakia for the last two weeks on business and only home tonight from Le Mans....great craic at the race but got soaked twice!

Caddyman:)

Caddyman

Just got the Roller sorted out this evening, we got the valves on last weekend only to see another leak from another part of the brake pipe but now thats sorted she will get a good wash and polish and it'll be ready for the next show!

Thanks again for everyones help.........Caddyman:)