Your opinions needed!

kingpin55

I was recently in a well established casino playing 1-3 pot limit holdem with a group of players i knew resonably well. Having bought in for 100 euro i was playing a pretty quiet game not having raised any pots pre flop. In a certain hand on the button i am dealt TT and decide to call a min raise with four others in the pot not wanting to get to committed to anything seriuos, the flop comes J-T-8 rainbow, and is checked to player in mid pos who bets pot roughly 40-45 euro, comes to me and i raise to 95 euro with set of tens, ( at this pint i turn and take a drink of water) when i turn my attention back to the table i see that my opponent (the origional raiser) has turned his cards face up;J9o, i proceed to push my cards face down over the betting line where the dealer proceeds to take them from my hand an muck,and pushes the pot to my opponent. A little dumbfounded i start to argue that i was not mucking and had thought my oponent had mucked his hand hence me not showing my set, i at this point naturally understand that there is not much the dealer can do for me, however i wish to get a clear cut ruling on the matter while all the time being perfectly calm. This is where things start to go haywire, the dealer calls over the casino owner who curses me out of it and has no decisive poker ruling to offer at all! (just so ye know my opponent who pushed all in had only 30 euro or so more, which for any player is basically an automatic call). Trying to explain the situation, my remaining chips are taking off the table and i am not allowed to ask any questions whatsoever, without any explanation to house rules regarding face up shows in the cash game also.(this was the least i required). The casino owner offered me a seat on the other table, however i still wanted to have a clear ruling on my previous situation where i had not actually mucked my hand and had misunderstood my opponents actions! When i asked for this the owner saw 'red' and told me to leave...i was very angered at this reaction, not given any closure on the casions rules.

I wish for anyone out there to give me there opinions on this sutuaton, be it from the players point of view or the casinos point of view!

Having worked as a dealer, my immediate action in this situation would be to reassure the actions on both parties were correct given the fact that there was so little in the calling action of the button player. I am aware that this is not the dealers duty,but common courtesy entails that the dealer re-announces the tiny raise into him, which merits a call just out of mere odds!

BigCityBanker

Bottom line - you pushed your cards across the line face down - this is generally taken to mean that you are mucking cards. You have nobody to blame but yourself. You need to be more careful.

Also - you are on the button - after a min raise and some limpers I make it at least €25 to see a flop.

bops

hmmmm i wonder where this is going????

your hand is dead the casino manager is ignorant - you were wrong, he was wrong, you were all wrong - some common sense would go a long way with all concerned

Iago

you mucked your cards, your hand is dead. Next time pay attention to what's going on around you. If you never do this again then you can consider it a cheap lesson.

TheRock

bops wrote:

hmmmm i wonder where this is going????

your hand is dead the casino manager is ignorant - you were wrong, he was wrong, you were all wrong - some common sense would go a long way with all concerned

"." or "+1"

I think I'm allowed put it that way. Cant beleive I'm agreeing with Bops and he's talking sense.

kingpin55

I agree that i should have been more observant, i just couldn't believe the way the casino manager treated me for asking a question, i mean my opponent had pushed his hand face up over the betting line, my mistsake was thinking that he was the one who actually mucked!

When my chips were taken off the table i asked why? and said that i wasn't getting violent or anything like that, the manger suggested i leave before 'things did get violent'....i mean this is just unbelievable in a modern day casino, we're not in the wild west anymore!

Marq

casino manager obviously very unprofessional, but the ruling is correct.
Can't believe your chips were taken off the table.
I think you should name and shame the establishment.

earthworms

i think i can guess where this happened... The four aces right?

and id say siofra was the dealer? every other dealer would use their common sense for this but not her.

and mike of course never came over and just gave a ruling did he he just kicked you out. I've never seen him handle a situation well at all just starts freakin out.

now that is if youre talking about the aces (which im pretty confident that you are). Otherwise i apologise for this rant

earthworms

you did muck your cards tho. you just werent trated very well afterwards

Cuban Son

All players are responsible for their own cards, and their own actions. You messed up.
Regardless of the casino owners actions, (maybe people skills isn't his strong point), your hand is dead.
Sounds like you're more angry with the way you reacted to the situation and ended up taking it out on the wrong person.

kingpin55

U must be a good player earthworms, if ur reads are always that accurate!

Again i know i'm the one who messed up with pushing my cards over,that was not my real quarrel, it was jus the complete lack of respect i was shown all for wanting to ask for a clear cut ruling so i know in future where i stand in wanting to show my cards before a player has acted.
My own fault for playing mostly tournies i guess, where this action wud represent a fold.

5starpool

Always confirm the action before you act if you are unsure. Harsh but fair. Manager sounds like a pr1ck though if the above is accurate.

The other guy should not have exposed his cards i nthe first place though. It is at times like this that a bit of common sense should be used, or a bit of observancy to be honest. It is not that hard to look at your opponents chips. If they are all over the line, he is all in, if not and his cards are exposed, his hand is dead.

earthworms

5starpool wrote:

The other guy should not have exposed his cards i nthe first place though.

very true i missed that actually. whyd he turn over his cards?? if we're goin by the letter of the law then youre wrong and your hand is folded, but even so you deserve an explanation and were mistreated.

Mr.Plough

whats he doing flipping his cards when he hasnt folded? i can't understand this at all.

smoothcall

ye , his card should have been mucked before yours if you were to be this strict. You can not show your hand when there is still action , so you were right to presume he had folded

kingpin55

Hey cuban, as far as im concerned i didnt react inapproriately, and i certainly didn't take anythin out on ' the wrong person'... my arguement was that i thought my opponent had mucked face up and i had won the pot, where i am entitled to push my cards in face down and not show my hand. On the night all i wanted was clarification on this rule!

phantom_lord

don't min raise with sets as well btw!