Set over Set

DEmeant0r

This is from Thursdays 20e FO in Jackpot.

This is the last hand of the first level. 25/50. I'm the current table chip leader with about 3,600.

I'm UTG with 22. I limp.

UTG + 1 raises to 150.

3 callers. I call.

Flop comes A29 rainbow.

I bet 300. UTG + 1 raises to 1,000.

3 folds. I put him on 2 hands AA and AK, AK was the more likely or so I thought.

I shove. He calls and shows AA.

turn and river are blanks.

Was I wrong to shove here or was I just unlucky?

insafehands

Unlucky I guess. Never fold a set; particularly on that board.

Even if you just called and saw the turn, you were losing anyway.

phantom_lord

raise pf. you're getting it all in, either now or on the turn. standardo. just unlucky.

Gus Ivey

no getting away from it on this flop.

if flop had 2/3 of the same suit and was dangerous looking you might get away , but the flop you got was the exact flop you wanted.

valor

Gus Ivey wrote:

if flop had 2/3 of the same suit and was dangerous looking you might get away ,

this is completely wrong

Mellor

Gus Ivey wrote:

no getting away from it on this flop.

if flop had 2/3 of the same suit and was dangerous looking you might get away , but the flop you got was the exact flop you wanted.

2 of the same suit? What??? never get away from that.
Even 3 of the same suit. A set has very good chances against a made flush and completely crushes a FD.


edit: oh, and to the OP, Bad beat sticky, this happens. dont worry about your play. next time you will be top set

digiman

phantom_lord wrote:

raise pf. you're getting it all in, either now or on the turn. standardo. just unlucky.

I think this is player dependant, I personally dont think you achieve much raising PF to be honest with 22, a cheap flop is the best way to go with small PP on a full table early in a tournament.
If you do raise PF here then you are most likely to get re-raised and maybe that will be your cheapest way of getting away from this hand, at the same time it will need a big re-raise PF to put me of this hand PF as well.
At the end of it all, its just one of those hands that 95% of the time on that flop you are getting all your money in, plus 99% of the time in the jackpot you will be miles ahead on that flop and get called every time with nearly every A

phantom_lord

ok, I pretty much never limp, or at least try to keep it to a minimum, by raising you take control of the hand by being the aggressor, build a pot for when you hit a set, and create fe for the flop when you c-bet. and I doubt you're gonna see much 3betting going on in the 20yoyo game in the jackpot. anyway, whatever you do, don't min-raise in ep!


edit: 150 when you have a stack of 3.6k is still cheap, it's gonna be a lot easier to ship it in a raised pot than in a limped one.

cooker3

phantom_lord wrote:

I doubt you're gonna see much 3betting going on in the 20yoyo game in the jackpot.

Unless I am involved

anyway bb, ul etc. You never ever fold this in this tournament.

digiman

phantom_lord wrote:

ok, I pretty much never limp, or at least try to keep it to a minimum, by raising you take control of the hand by being the aggressor, build a pot for when you hit a set, and create fe for the flop when you c-bet. and I doubt you're gonna see much 3betting going on in the 20yoyo game in the jackpot. anyway, whatever you do, don't min-raise in ep!

I would agree with all that if it was a 6max cash game, but I don't think it is good in a 10 seat tournament.

DEmeant0r

Just curious. Would anyone call that large raise in a large deepstack tournament and expect to be ahead?

And what are the chances of seeing your set facing a higher set?

mdwexford

im never folding 2-2 on that board regardless of buy-in, what stage etc

your gonna see A-K play the hand the eaxct same way.
the odds of 2 players flopping a set are huge, never fold a set, NEVER!!!

Marq

Bad beat sticky.

cardshark202

Not sure I agree with raising 22 utg on a 9 handed or 10 handed table.

BuChan

i agree with phantom lord raising preflop seems like the best way to play the hand, or mucking, although that's not really an option if you'd have raised you'd have mucked to a reraise and saved yourself a lot of chips. as played i don't think anyone would muck this hand, AK/Q/J/10/9 all very likely to be in your opponents hand.
if you don't raise small pocket pairs utg then you become very easy to read. i've noticed many players playing suited connecters, small pairs (even 88-1010) and KQ this way when utg or early position then limping in behind to a raise from late position, if the raiser has paid attention to this he already has a pretty solid range for his opponent. this play is surprisingly common practice in live tournaments.

phantom_lord

cardshark202 wrote:

Not sure I agree with raising 22 utg on a 9 handed or 10 handed table.

hmmm, maybe not. but if we're not raising should we not be folding instead of limping?

cardshark202

I think limping is ok in this spot.

jbravado

Limping is fine here imo.
There seems to be a huge body of support in the NEVER limp camp which i just dont get.There are certainly times when its ok.

jbravado

phantom_lord wrote:

hmmm, maybe not. but if we're not raising should we not be folding instead of limping?

Why?

BuChan

i guess limping is ok if you do it with premium hands (and don't reraise pf) aswell, otherwise it broadcasts your hand.

Tar.Aldarion

You were going to lose all your chipz on this flop, no matter how betting went.
22? fold preflop.

Shortstack

Limping in early position is fine, especially if you mix it up and do it with big hands every so often. 10 handed I would not be raising 22 from here as you want to get to a flop cheap and bust someone when you hit a set.

Anyone who who never limps has a big hole in their game. To play successful poker (tournaments specifically) you should not be playing in a set manner otherwise you will become very easy to figure out.

As to the OP, never fold sets on the flop and you will not go far wrong.

Iago

I've taken to folding 44-22 from UTG, they're too small to raise and when you limp I think you're leaking chips as you won't hit enough sets against big hands to make it worth your while.

DEmeant0r

Iago wrote:

I've taken to folding 44-22 from UTG, they're too small to raise and when you limp I think you're leaking chips as you won't hit enough sets against big hands to make it worth your while.

Well I'd agree with you if I was UTG short stacked with 22-44 and any raised pot I played would effectively have me pot committed, but this was early(still in the first level) in the tournament and after winning a couple of relatively big pots I had chips to play around with.

DEmeant0r

BuChan wrote:

i agree with phantom lord raising preflop seems like the best way to play the hand, or mucking, although that's not really an option if you'd have raised you'd have mucked to a reraise and saved yourself a lot of chips. as played i don't think anyone would muck this hand, AK/Q/J/10/9 all very likely to be in your opponents hand.
if you don't raise small pocket pairs utg then you become very easy to read. i've noticed many players playing suited connecters, small pairs (even 88-1010) and KQ this way when utg or early position then limping in behind to a raise from late position, if the raiser has paid attention to this he already has a pretty solid range for his opponent. this play is surprisingly common practice in live tournaments.

So are you telling me people would re-raise so much on the flop with AQ/J/10 in this spot? I was thinking more along the lines of AA/AK/A9, AA was at the very back of my mind at that point. Ugh.

5starpool

Raising at this stage of a tournie with every hand you play Shane is not good imo, as, while you can build chips if you manage to hit, usually you don't, and if you have the wrong type of player at your table this can lead to a very early exit. The problem with limp calling a raise UTG is that this is 22-66 a large % of the time, for a reasonable player at least. I usually limp or fold small pairs in early position on a full table. Raising is ok occasionally if you have been less active.

Cuban Son

The odds of running set into set is 98/1. As requested by op.

I'd usually fold this hand though utg in a big buyin deepstack tournament.
I'd view it differently in a cash game.
In your position in a 20 euro buy in gamble fest and with your stack size I might even raise here, as chances are you hit and get paid- usually. Just unlucky.

aodea

i hate playing 22 in early postion i have to muck it a raise is never in my thinking guess im tooo tight

LuckyLloyd

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5starpool

Cuban Son wrote:

I'd usually fold this hand though utg in a big buyin deepstack tournament.
I'd view it differently in a cash game.
In your position and with your stack size I might even raise here, as chances are you hit and get paid- usually. Just unlucky.

I'm not sure I think this is great advice Paul. Usually the deeper you are the more advantageous it is to play, as a far smaller part of your stack is at risk when you miss. When you are relatively shallow (in this example the next hand, chip leader will have 36 BB's) it is best not to raise as you don't want to get reraised with this holding.

phantom_lord

I guess early on there's nothing wrong with limping, but i still prefer raising. limp calling defines our hand pretty well. At a tough table it's probably a fold, well, maybe not early on, but as our stack gets shallow i think it is.

I like rasing this hand cause it makes it so much easier to stack an opponent, plus in that game is bad/passive to worry about getting raised pf by some lag abusing position or w/e, and it's an easy hand to play oop, it's not like ajo or something with reverse implied odds that's gonna be tough to play, either you flop a set and ship the monies, or you don't and you c/f or c-bet.


but then again, I just like raising in general.

5starpool

phantom_lord wrote:

I like rasing this hand cause it makes it so much easier to stack an opponent, plus in that game is bad/passive to worry about getting raised pf by some lag abusing position or w/e, and it's an easy hand to play oop, it's not like ajo or something with reverse implied odds that's gonna be tough to play, either you flop a set and ship the monies, or you don't and you c/f or c-bet.

Most of the time though you will either get reraised preflop and be left with a decision for your stack, which is bad, or you will get a caller, miss, and get a cbet called or raised, especially if you have been very active.

The times you pick up the blinds, or successfully cbet I don't think make up for playing hands like this OOP in a raised pot.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

5starpool wrote:

Raising at this stage of a tournie with every hand you play Shane is not good imo, as, while you can build chips if you manage to hit, usually you don't, and if you have the wrong type of player at your table this can lead to a very early exit.

I'm not saying raising every hand you play, but early on I'd raise pretty much every pair, ak/aq and stuff. and then as the blinds go up widen my range more and more til I open raise when it's folded to me as much as possible.

phantom_lord

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If we were five or six handed I think we should definately raise with the hand first to act. But at a nine or ten handed table I think raising would become very bad.

Shane - you must adjust your ranges and raising frequencies at full ring, as you well know.

i do, kinda, as best I can. I folded ajo utg in the open earlish and didn't think anything of it, but I'm still opening with any pair from anywhere.

a raise it makes very little difference to our stack, but it builds a pot for when we flop a set and want to ship it.

5starpool

phantom_lord wrote:

I'm not saying raising every hand, but early on I'd raise pretty much every pair, ak/aq and stuff. and then as the blinds go up widen my range more and more til I open raise when it's folded to me as much as possible.

I didn't say every hand, I said every hand you play.

phantom_lord

lol, typo.

Mr.Plough

open limp/calling is really weak imo.

raise pf or fold for me.

1. Theres a chance you'll get the blinds. Unlikely in a 20e f/o but still possible.

2. You can fold to a reraise

3. you hand is disguised

4. your inflating the pot so if you hit your getting paid off. Limping with a pp, and hitting a set can be difficult to get paid off if nobody has anything invested.



regarding the hand, i will never ever ever lay this down in a 20e f/o.


bbsticky

delanec8

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If we were five or six handed I think we should definately raise with the hand first to act. But at a nine or ten handed table I think raising would become very bad.

I think it would be worse if he is the type of player who always raises when opening a pot, and then randomly limps UTG. With deep stacks i prefer raising if it fits with your style because limping would make your hand transparent. If we are somewhat shallow i probably fold.

Obviously this depends on the table. If a lot of the players are terrible then i dont mind limping, regardless of your style, because they won't pick up on the fact that you likely have a small pair, and if they encounter any heat postflop you probably hit a set.

Cuban Son

5starpool wrote:

I'm not sure I think this is great advice Paul. Usually the deeper you are the more advantageous it is to play, as a far smaller part of your stack is at risk when you miss. When you are relatively shallow (in this example the next hand, chip leader will have 36 BB's) it is best not to raise as you don't want to get reraised with this holding.

I hear what you're saying Dom, but I know I play a lot more conservatively in a bigger buy in event. I will not play weak holdings out of position. Especially when my chips are more valuable at the start.
In a decent tournament with a good structure and bigger chips there is absolutely no need to play this hand at all. Its a no brainer fold imo.

The op's situation is a prime example why, it cost him because he played a weak hand out of position badly and it cost him. (No offence op)

In a €20 buy in you want to gamble a little, smaller stacks faster levels etc, but the reason I said I might raise here, especially with his stack, is it disguises my holding-utg raise looks strong so if people are willing to cold call or reraise you gain valuable information.

Look at the action again, limp utg, raise, call. Where do you gain info there?

Now look at action, raise utg, mid position finds AA-reraise, back to me -fold.
Info gained, lose minimum, priceless.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

BuChan

5starpool wrote:

Most of the time though you will either get reraised preflop and be left with a decision for your stack, which is bad, or you will get a caller, miss, and get a cbet called or raised, especially if you have been very active.

The times you pick up the blinds, or successfully cbet I don't think make up for playing hands like this OOP in a raised pot.

most of the time you will get reraised preflop, you'll miss or your c-bet will fail? how do you know that? your opponents still have to pick up a hand or hit the flop or both just as the would if you held a premium hand. i think the key factor in raising is disguising your hand, limp calling from utg/utg+1 is basically only done with small pairs or sometimes suited connecters. raising gives you many advantages whereas limping only saves you a few chips when you get reraised pf or get a c-bet snapped off. most good players won't pay you off if limp preflop and then all of a sudden want to put your stack in on the flop. on a 2 A 9 board.

5starpool

BuChan wrote:

most of the time you will get reraised preflop, you'll miss or your c-bet will fail? how do you know that? your opponents still have to pick up a hand or hit the flop or both just as the would if you held a premium hand.

I have not played this €20 game in the Jackpot, and probably won't, but I have heard that is is harldy a tight, high standard game. It doesn't sound like a game where bluffing is great which is exactly what 22 on a missed board is.

Hectorjelly

Cuban Son wrote:

Look at the action again, limp utg, raise, call. Where do you gain info there?

Now look at action, raise utg, mid position finds AA-reraise, back to me -fold.
Info gained, lose minimum, priceless.

This is bad, you dont want info, especially with 22, you want a chance to bust someone with aces. If the stacks are such that you cant call a reraise then you allmost certainly shouldnt raise utg with 22 for exactly the opposite of what you say above

cooker3

Tbh I fold this utg in this game with these stacks. The biggest problem with this game is the small starting stack
(Sarah make it 3000!)

Raising is not great as you will just get called a lot and and continuation betting will not work as much and considering this can cost you 20-25% of your stack in opening level, it means your are left struggling.
If you limp a lot then it's fine to limp but rather like Shane, I pretty much never open limp so to suddenly open limp is rather exploitable so best to fold for me.

BuChan

Hectorjelly wrote:

This is bad, you dont want info, especially with 22, you want a chance to bust someone with aces. If the stacks are such that you cant call a reraise then you allmost certainly shouldnt raise utg with 22 for exactly the opposite of what you say above

only raising if you can afford to call a reraise, that seems like a good rule of thumb. do you mean that you would only play the hand this way, mostly just mucking 22-66(77?) utg and utg+1? or would you open limp in the situation being talked about here to try to hit the set cheap?

Hectorjelly

BuChan wrote:

only raising if you can afford to call a reraise, that seems like a good rule of thumb. do you mean that you would only play the hand this way, mostly just mucking 22-66(77?) utg and utg+1? or would you open limp in the situation being talked about here to try to hit the set cheap?

It depends on the table, but mostly if its the early stages of a tournament Im probably going to limp, the worse the players the more Ill limp.