FF and the construction industry

DJDC

I was listening to the radio this week and the commentator talked about how FF and the construction industry are "joined at the hip".

I think this could be due to prominent FF families which have been in positions of power since the formation of the free state, having close connections to issues surrounding land ownership/land development.Also the Irish 'cute hoor' certainly doesnt help.Is the rezoning culture that has occured in the last 20 years a result of close ties between those in political power and developers?There has been advantages and disadvantages to this.The construction industry has never been so bouyant creating (argueably unsustainable and low-paid) employment and huge tax receipts are taken every year in construction based taxes.The downsides are obvious;misappriorate rezonings,enviromental destruction,running out of green space etc.

Just wondering is the FF link with the construction industry a major turn-off for voters or is merely a side issue that people dont feel that important.

Interesting to hear peoples stance on this arguement.

Its a nonsense, just an old line to throw at FF again and again. I suspect that traditionally FG has drawn a higher percentage of votes amongst the landed classes, and FF amongst poorer urban areas, which is easily verified by checking constituencies. The building industry has gone through a boom, lazy journalists have thrown up the 'friend of the developer' line. I don't think Lemass was known as 'friend of the industrialist', perhaps he was lucky he didn't live in a time of tabloidesque rubish.

Sleepy

Go to the Galway Races. Look inside the Fianna Fail tent. There you'll find the 'cream' of the Irish construction industry paying a few grand a pop for the 'priviledge' of Cabinet Minister's company.

It's akin to the notion that you're paying an 'escort' for her 'time and companionship' imho.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

...an old line...lazy journalists...tabloidesque rubish.

Sleepy wrote:

Galway Races...tent.

It was only a mater of time before someone threw out the oldest line in the book now.

Incidentally, Sleepy, what did you think about the Labour Party in Government charging rich developers and industrialists for the 'privilege of Cabinet Minister company'...being access to their Finance Minister at a function on the eve of the delivery of a budget speech?

Where are the Labour Party/function for the rich/pay to bend the ministers ear threads?

flurby

Three reasons why I suspect FF is less than, shall we say, impartial when it comes to the construction trade...

• The reluctance (ten years worth) of FF/PD's to properly regulate builders using substandard insulation materials.
• The "holding" of developers land for amenities like schools while the developer builds thousands of houses. Subsequently, the land being bought for a grossly inflated price.
• Gross overspending on projects like Luas and the completed M50.

BTW, I'm equally suss about FG/Labour and the nurses unions. It's just a pity they don't generate much revenue.

flurby

flurby wrote:

The reluctance (ten years worth) of FF/PD's to properly regulate builders using substandard insulation materials.

On the other hand, who introduced the Building Control Act, 1990?

The Building Control Regulations 1991?

The Building Control Regulations 1997-2004?

What legislation has a FG led Government introduced?

I'm not saying FF can claim much credit - I suspect that most Building Control legislation is driven by the need to meet standards set by the EU. And I am in no position to comment about insulation, to be frank. But I think their respective records are such that noone can say a vote for the current opposition will bring about some great changes which FF could not introduce because of some mythical connection to developers.

Heinrich

Deleted User wrote:

On the other hand, who introduced the Building Control Act, 1990?

The Building Control Regulations 1991?

The Building Control Regulations 1997-2004?

What legislation has a FG led Government introduced?

I'm not saying FF can claim much credit - I suspect that most Building Control legislation is driven by the need to meet standards set by the EU. And I am in no position to comment about insulation, to be frank. But I think their respective records are such that noone can say a vote for the current opposition will bring about some great changes which FF could not introduce because of some mythical connection to developers.

Let me guess now...

Was it the same party who introduced the integrity stunt so that MacDowell could bring home the table lamp worth 350 yoyos? Or the criminal justice one

cm2000

DJDC wrote:

I was listening to the radio this week and the commentator talked about how FF and the construction industry are "joined at the hip".

(argueably unsustainable and low-paid) employment .

low paid? is that a p**s take?

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote:

Was it the same party who introduced the integrity stunt so that MacDowell could bring home the table lamp worth 350 yoyos? Or the criminal justice one

Not sure what you are referring to. Or what a table lamp or criminal law has to do with developers.

But for clarification, the FG Labour government did nothing about building control in the 80s. In fairness to them I doubt it was a buzz word at a time when the industry collapsed and many builders went bust. It became relevant, afaik, after the collapse of a corner of a block of flats in Dublin after a gas explosion (much as the Stardust Disaster heralded the adoption of fire safety legislation). Accordingly the 1990 Act and 1991 Regulations were introduced by Fianna Fail. Then followed a break of a few years, the Rainbow Coalition introduced nothing in their time. Noel Dempsey signed in the 1997 Regulations, and there has been a few changes since.

Aesop

Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, The Bailey Brothers, U-Turn on stamp duty for investors 2001, Mahon Tribunal, Ivor Callely, Watered down social housing legislation, McCracken and Moriarty Tribunals, Carrickmines and Jacksons way...

All connect FF to the construction industry? Do others have more examples?

BeatNikDub

I have heard it come from many Builders mouths that FF OWN the construction industry.
Thats just not right.

Heinrich

BeatNikDub wrote:

I have heard it come from many Builders mouths that FF OWN the construction industry.
Thats just not right.

Maybe it's the other way around.:rolleyes:

Aesop

Aesop wrote:

All connect FF to the construction industry?

Yeah.

Indeed Carrickmines Castle, archeaologists have shown, was originally constructed in the 12th Century 'to connect FF to the construction industry'...

BeatNikDub wrote:

I have heard it come from many Builders mouths that FF OWN the construction industry.

I have heard it from many builders mouths that they will vote Fine Gael. That's anecdotal (Ie. useless) evidence for you.

If you want I can give you a pretty accurate property portfolio for the FG and FF candidates challenging for seats here, and in particular the links between the FG candidate and development land. Of course it proves nothing but that his family did well, and fair play to him for that.

Nightwish

I know for a fact the developers in my area hate the FG councillors because they are very stringent on the types of development in the area. FF on the council, however are more than happy to allow anything to be thrown up without debate. A FF candidate here has his election posters in the windows of houses in estates that are being built.

gurramok

Jerry Beades the property developer magnate is on the FF national executive for starters..

Link..
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/05/16/story911550326.asp

Indy wrote:

'A Dublin builder, a member of the Fianna Fail national executive, has made a complaint to the financial watchdog about his dealings with Investec Bank.
Jerry Beades, who runs a construction business in Dublin,..

Beades was elected to the influential `committee of 15', the inner circle of the national executive of Fianna Fail, at the last ard fheis'.

de5p0i1er

The Construction Industry needs to stay in the good graces of the government, if FG/Lab get in next time they'll all flock to the FG tent at teh next Galway races, its just teh way things go.

gurramok

According to this, 2 other members of the Drumcondra mafia Paddy Reilly & Joe Burke., have significant property interests:
http://www.tribune.ie/2007/03/25/83954.html

Another couple of them -Des Richardson & Tim Collins have been either investigated/questioned by planning tribunals on dodgy dealings.

FF tent at Galways races :
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2005/07/24/story6640.asp

'Since it began 11 years ago, big business has always been out in force in the Fianna Fáil tent.

In the past, builders such as Bernard McNamara, Pádraig Rhatigan from Galway, property developers Johnny Ronan, Sean Mulryan and Sean Dunne, impresario Oliver Barry and entrepreneur Paschal Taggart have attended.

Michael Bailey, of Bovale Developments and Flood Tribunal fame, is a regular.

Auctioneer Pat Gunne keeps up a tradition started by his late father Fintan by taking a table each year.'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/newspapers/sunday_times/ireland/article1084208.ece

'The Bailey brothers are expected to be among the guests at the tent again this year. Last month their company, Bovale Developments, paid the highest-ever tax settlement to the Revenue Commissioners, €22.17m. The settlement arose out of the Flood tribunal, which found they had obstructed its work and given false testimony, and the sum included tax of almost €12.5m, and interest and penalties of almost €9.7m'

ronbyrne2005

Any decent government would have aquired vast tracts of land at agricultural/industrial rates and then allow developers to build on it and them make money on building houses and not on land speculation. In America and other countries,cities buy up land on outskirts of the city and allow developers to build on the land which they service, this keeps the cost of housing lower. Low cost housing is more desirable as it lowers cost of living and therefore employing people in this country.

FF have been attached to builders since about the 1950s when construction was a good way to stimulate economic growth and huge numbers of corporation houses were built. The have let the industry away with too much and created an unsustainble economy based on construction.

Zebra3

Was there some connection between some in CJH's mafia and CRH?

Anyway as regards the FF being lapdogs of the constructiuon industry just look at all the tax relief granted to developments in areas that needed no encouragement. Section 23 & 27 were brought in to help develop the likes of Sheriff St, not help give tax relief to the rich for buying in Dundrum.

And when the economy took a downturn after the last GE which did FF cut? Services for the poor or tax avoision on developments for the rich by the rich? :rolleyes:

Can anyone tell me what have Fine Gael/Labour proposed to do that would mark them out as being enemies of the developers, and when will any changes take place?

Macy

Conor, how long has the Government delayed the introduction of the new building regulations at the behest of the construction industry? So much so that several local authorities decided themselves to introduce the higher specs as they were fed up of waiting for the Government to do so.

Surprised people have missed off the list of FF benefits for builders the change in legislation that allowed payment instead of 20% social housing.

Labour say it'll be policy to make the provision of public services like schools and public transport a condition of planning permission, regulation of management companies and no planning for developers that haven't finished previous estates. And the FF proposals are? Probably much the same as the last 10 years...

It hasn't gone unnoticed in our village that a prominent local property developer has all his sites plastered with posters supporting a (previously) prominent Government Minister. It is surely some coincidence that he gets planning, even for one off housing to sell to non locals, far quicker than the average joe soap from the area who when they eventually get planning has to sign 10 year clauses, land freezes etc.

gurramok

Deleted User wrote:

Can anyone tell me what have Fine Gael/Labour proposed to do that would mark them out as being enemies of the developers, and when will any changes take place?

FF have overseen the property bubble for last 10 years hence the interest.

Instead of sidestepping the evidence, why don't FF shed their construction industry links and hence avoid warranted criticism?

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote:

On the other hand, who introduced the Building Control Act, 1990?

The Building Control Regulations 1991?

The Building Control Regulations 1997-2004?

What about the National Monuments (Amendment) Act 2004?
What about the Planning and Development(Amendment) Act 2002?
Both developer led amendments - not done in the national interest!

Zebra3

Deleted User wrote:

Can anyone tell me what have Fine Gael/Labour proposed to do that would mark them out as being enemies of the developers?

Not take bribes?

Zebra3

Zebra3 wrote:

Not take bribes?

So we won't hear evidence in future tribunals about lobbyists giving Pat Rabbitte £3,000 during a rezoning then?

ateam

Fianna Fail are close with the construction industry because the industry employs thousands of people directly and then there are those who gain employment indirectly.

AidoCQS

The big issue in construction is, was and always has been INSULATION, its not as sexy as the stuff above but bear with me, I believe in years to come it will be a bigger scandal

The issue is why were builders not Mandated to build houses with higher U-Values quicker? Compare how the farmers got hamstrung with every kind of regulation imaginable from the 70's onward. Yet there was no mandate or enforcement for the proper use if Insulation in Irish homes untill 2003

Century timberframe claim that this delayed making timber frame houses more economical, that is certainly one issue.

But even if you were to forget about the TIMBER FRAME Vs. TRADITIONAL BLOCK debate, say if you were only to look at traditional block wall houses, why is it only now in 2007 there is any requirement to provide a energy rating cert.

The building regulations were introduced in 1976, the bluebook as it was called was non-obligatory to developers/builders.

The Building Regulations first introduced the statement “a building shall be so designed and constructed as to secure, insofar as is reasonably practicable, the conservation of fuel and energy” in 1991. Reasonably practicable is pretty vague would'nt you say...

1997 – U –Values were reduced, again on a voluntary basis but it was 2002 before part L of the code was enforced in line with Kyoto. The shocking thing is that in real terms, take any bungalow out in the country, and the cost to upgrade from ’97 to ’03 specs, in today’s money is only about €3,000. That’s not a lot of extra cash for a builder to fork out when you consider today’s home heating costs.

Why the velvet glove approach to builders, while the same time the Farmers wer regulated out of business? - aside from tents at racecourses, i'll give you a clue C R H