Tenants rights when house is being sold?

Glenbhoy

A colleague recently signed a 12 month rental lease, the landlady has however decided recently that she wants to sell up - obviously this will mean that the tenant will have to endure the hassle of moving again, not to mention the expense - he has a family and will need to hire a removal company. Does he have any rights here? What is the value of the 12 month lease? Any advice appreciated.

whizzbang

I believe that he has the right to 28 days notice in the case of the house being sold. There are details about it on the www.prtb.ie web site.

Tennants rights are a bit crap here.

On the other side he could offer to stay in the house (at a reduced rent) as she tries to sell it as it may take months.

BC

Depends on how long the tenant has been there but its a minimu of 28 days notice.

Afuera

Unfortunately I don't think he has a leg to stand on. Landlords have the right to terminate a tenancy without even giving any reason for the first six months. Leases cannot take away from the landlord's or tenant's rights.

The notice period of 28 days stands in this case.

robd

One of the big loop holes in the tenancy laws are that a lease can be terminated should the landlord wish to sell the place, occupy it themselves, or let it to a relative. Unfortunately, no provision is made in the tenancy laws for removal or any other kind of expenses.

So I'm afraid there isn't much he can do. He is entitled to 28 days notice within the initial 6 months as already stated. He doesn't have to agree to viewings while the notice period is being served as he is "entitled to peaceful and exclusive" occupation of the premises. As already suggested he could try to negotiate a discount (I'd say 50%) to stay on while the house is being shown if he is prepared to allow the agent to enter at will.

The tenancy laws here are a joke. The whole buy to let craze has meant that three's tons of amateur landlords don't even know or care about there obligations, the little that they have.

talkingclock

I'm in a similar position. I have a one year contract which runs out in September. My landlady informed me in February that she will sell but she said it wont affect me as it is a "settled tenancy". Whatever that means...

From what I understood is that my contract imoves just to the next landlord/lady under the same conditions.

ixoy

Very poor tenant rights are one of the big reasons that I want to get my own place and not constantly live under such threats. I mean what if the tenant has a 12-month contract (or somesuch) with a telecom corp. or a BB provider? How is it fair to receive no compensation?

RIRI

As already mentioned the tenant has the "right" to 28 days notice and nothing further. On the other hand if the tenant wanted to break the lease because they were buying a place of their own they'd technically be liable for the remainder of the lease.

I was in the same position this time last year, I also have a small child. It was a complete nightmare for us to be under that much pressure. We did find a much nicer place (eventually) & our new landlords are the most professional I have encountered in almost 10 years renting here. So it worked out great for us in the end. The old landlord on the other hand has not been so lucky & the house is STILL on the market today

I did ask for my deposit to be returned early, on the pretence that we needed the cash to put down on the new place. The landlord obliged but grudgingly.

Ste.phen

RIRI wrote:

On the other hand if the tenant wanted to break the lease because they were buying a place of their own they'd technically be liable for the remainder of the lease.

AFAIK this is untrue, if you offer to get someone to take over the lease and your landlord refuses, you only have to give 35 days notice. (could be wrong about this figure).

http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Residential%20Tenancies%20Act%202004%20-%20A%20Quick%20Guide.pdf

• Where a tenancy isassignedto a new tenant (i.e.
transferred with the landlord’s consent), a new tenancy
cycle will commence.

{...}

Where a landlord refuses consent to assign or sub-let a fixed term
tenancy, the tenant may terminate the tenancy before the expiry of
the fixed term.

I assume that last part is subject ot the notice periods in the act?

useruser

My understanding is that if your lease does not contain a clause to permit it then the landlord cannot evict you because they are selling. The PRTB protects the tenant in cases where there is no lease I believe (you cannot sign your PRTB rights away in a lease).

This is a point that comes up fairly regularly, I contacted Threshold who agreed with what I state above. I would be very interested to get a definitive answer from someone who thinks that this is not correct.

whizzbang

useruser wrote:

My understanding is that if your lease does not contain a clause to permit it then the landlord cannot evict you because they are selling. The PRTB protects the tenant in cases where there is no lease I believe (you cannot sign your PRTB rights away in a lease).

This is a point that comes up fairly regularly, I contacted Threshold who agreed with what I state above. I would be very interested to get a definitive answer from someone who thinks that this is not correct.

It looks like the PRTB rights only give you 28 days notice in the case of selling (ie the normal 28 days). The landlord selling is a valid reason for the tenancy to be terminated according to this PRTB publication.

http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termnating%20a%20Tenancy%20pdf.pdf

Maybe Threshold were talking about something else?

Afuera

useruser wrote:

My understanding is that if your lease does not contain a clause to permit it then the landlord cannot evict you because they are selling. The PRTB protects the tenant in cases where there is no lease I believe (you cannot sign your PRTB rights away in a lease).

I don't think that this is correct. Landlords have the right to end a tenancy without giving a reason in the first six months. The lease can not remove that right. I think that this is specified in the Residential Tenancy Act 2004.

After six months there are certain circumstances which will allow the tenancy to be terminated such as if the landlord intends to sell, they intend to refurbish, they want the place for a family member etc. No matter what's in the lease (or even if there is no lease), I think landlords always have these rights. It appears that there is no security of tenure for renters in Ireland whatsoever really.

mikemac

No wonder most people want to buy instead of rent
I thought a landlord had to buy you out of a lease but obviously not.

Shocking state of affairs!

robd

micmclo wrote:

No wonder most people want to buy instead of rent
I thought a landlord had to buy you out of a lease but obviously not.

Shocking state of affairs!

Only if it's a long term commercial lease, not residential. Yes it is shocking.

One of a governments main tasks is to provide stable shelter to the citizens of a country. This is either a place to buy or a place to rent at an affordable cost. Given that:

• house prices rose to ridiculous income ratio levels over the last 5 years
• rental prices rose to ridiculous levels in 2000 and are pushing up again now (as predicted) due to a down cycle in the property market
• residential tenancy laws are a joke and rental experience can be very unprofessional if the landlord is of poor quality.

they have failed thoroughly.

sharpsuit

The landlady in OP's case can sell the house but must do so subject to the lease. She cannot get vacant possession of the house during the lease period. The only exception to this is if the lease contains a break clause.

The notice periods in the Act apply when there is no lease in place. The landlady is bound by the lease for the period of the term. The Residential Tenancies Act did not have the effect of abolishing leases.

The OP should contact the PRTB to get their view. Their 'Terminating Tenancy' does not refer to the situation where a lease is in place.

Afuera

sharpsuit wrote:

The notice periods in the Act apply when there is no lease in place. The landlady is bound by the lease for the period of the term. The Residential Tenancies Act did not have the effect of abolishing leases.

The following from the Citizens Information website would seem to disagree with your view of the law.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/housing/renting-a-home/landlord-and-tenants-rights/landlords_rights_and_obligations

Your rights and obligations as a landlord in Ireland come from specific landlord/tenant law. In addition, your rights and obligations stem from any written or verbal tenancy agreement between you and your tenant. Leases or other tenancy agreements cannot take away from your or your tenants’ legal rights. However, you and your tenant can agree on matters that are not dealt with in law.

The main legislation governing these rights and obligations in private rented accommodation is set down in the Landlord and Tenants Acts 1967 – 1994 and the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (pdf). The following is a general overview of your rights, duties and obligations as a landlord.

Rights as a landlord

You have the right to

* set the rent (although the rent cannot be more than the current market rate. See Rent Increases in Ireland).
* receive the correct rent on the date it is due.
* receive any charges associated with the property (this means taxes and duties or payments).
* review the rent annually.
* terminate a tenancy without giving a reason during the first six months.
* be informed who is ordinarily living in the property (this does not include overnight visitors or short stays).
* decide whether to allow the tenant to sub-let or assign a tenancy (however if you refuse to allow a tenant to assign or sublet a tenancy this refusal can gives the tenant the right to terminate a fixed-term tenancy before its expiry date).
* be informed of any repairs needed.
* be given reasonable access to the property to carry out repairs.
* refer disputes to the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) if the tenancy is registered with them.

sharpsuit wrote:

The OP should contact the PRTB to get their view. Their 'Terminating Tenancy' does not refer to the situation where a lease is in place.

I agree that the PRTB and Threshold should be contacted to see what options the OP has. I don't think a lease can remove the rights of the landlord though.

sharpsuit

The law governing the relationship between leases and the notice periods under the Residential Tenancies Act is not self-evident. However, in my view, it is clear that the notice periods under Part 5 of the Act apply only when there is no lease in place (unless the lease provides a break clause or where the tenant has breached his/her obligations).

This has been established in decisions of the PRTB. In cases DR518/05 & DR536/05, the PRTB held "The tenancy was for a fixed period and no failure to comply with any obligation of the tenancy was claimed, alleged or proven therefore, termination by the Landlord within Part 5 of the Act is not applicable."

The information from Citizen's Information simplifies the matter too much and the portion dealing with terminating a tenancy does not address the situation of where a lease is in place.

Afuera

sharpsuit wrote:

The law governing the relationship between leases and the notice periods under the Residential Tenancies Act is not self-evident. However, in my view, it is clear that the notice periods under Part 5 of the Act apply only when there is no lease in place (unless the lease provides a break clause or where the tenant has breached his/her obligations).

This has been established in decisions of the PRTB. In cases DR518/05 & DR536/05, the PRTB held "The tenancy was for a fixed period and no failure to comply with any obligation of the tenancy was claimed, alleged or proven therefore, termination by the Landlord within Part 5 of the Act is not applicable."

This is interesting and would suggest that the OP is protected if they have the tenancy agreed for a fixed period.
http://www.prtb.ie/2006Disputes/DO518&536.doc

Am I right in thinking that if the tenancy is for a fixed period then Part IV does not apply at all? Would that mean that at the end of a fixed period lease tenants can be evicted without any reason, provided that adequate notice is given?

sharpsuit wrote:

The information from Citizen's Information simplifies the matter too much and the portion dealing with terminating a tenancy does not address the situation of where a lease is in place.

Yes you're right. I guess the purpose of the site is to act as a guide for the layman but obviously can't capture all the nuances of the law.

Glenbhoy

thanks for all the info folks, i'll pass it on.

sharpsuit

Quote: Am I right in thinking that if the tenancy is for a fixed period then Part IV does not apply at all? Would that mean that at the end of a fixed period lease tenants can be evicted without any reason, provided that adequate notice is given?

Part 4 is not extinguished because there is a lease in place. A Part 4 tenancy arises after 6 months of occupation and coexists with the remaining term of the lease.

Once a lease expires, tenants have their Part 4 rights. They can notify the landlord of their intention to "overhold" at the end of the lease period. They are, of course, bound by all the obligations of a tenant, eg paying rent.

Afuera

sharpsuit wrote:

Part 4 is not extinguished because there is a lease in place. A Part 4 tenancy arises after 6 months of occupation and coexists with the remaining term of the lease.

Once a lease expires, tenants have their Part 4 rights. They can notify the landlord of their intention to "overhold" at the end of the lease period. They are, of course, bound by all the obligations of a tenant, eg paying rent.

Thanks for the clarification and I'm glad to hear this. This means that a fixed period lease at least gives good security to tenants. It's only Part IV tenancies that are weak then because of all the clauses that allow them to be broken.

useruser

Afuera wrote:

Thanks for the clarification and I'm glad to hear this. This means that a fixed period lease at least gives good security to tenants. It's only Part IV tenancies that are weak then because of all the clauses that allow them to be broken.

So, in summary, the OP should check the terms of their lease carefully because it could well be the case that they cannot be evicted just because the Landlord has decided to sell. Perhaps they might even have the option of having their lease bought out to facilitate the landlord selling?

antoinolachtnai

Yes, the lease should hold water. She will have to buy you out to move you.

Realistically, you hold most of the cards because you are in possession. It would take her months to get you evicted in these circumstances, even if things went her way in the PRTB.

The only problem would be if the landlord were foolish enough to attempt an illegal eviction. That is unlikely though.