How would you play this hand (Strategists)

smurph

The SE €100 freezeout Monday Game,
In the first level , table is very passive alot of limping going on only player I know at table is Flushdraw who is very quiet due to sleep deprevation.

Blinds are 25 50, 4 limpers to pot and I make it 250 to go with A8 suited on the button, 3 callers.

Flop comes down 7d 8d Qh (sorry edited) (pot circa 800)
Checked to me and I bet 600 (opinions please, too much?)
folded to player who reluctantly calls

Turn is 7s he checks I bet 1,600 (opinions? I put him on a flush draw) he calls

River is a brick, he checks, what do you do, bet? how much? what would you put him on?

Pot now circa 5,00.

Marq

smurph wrote:

I put him on a flush draw

check behind.
flop bet and turn bets are good sizes.

5starpool

Absolutely check behind. If he had a flush draw he isn't calling you anyways, and won't call with a worse hand so not a lot of point in betting I think. If he has a Q then he hasn't folded so far, so not much reason to think he will now.

bubbleking

what are the stack sizes??

its a bit early in the tournament to be going to war with a marginal hand dont you think?

this decision is player dependant (probably too early in the tournament to have any reads though)

i think you have good fold equity if you fire a third bullet as its doubtful he called a large bet with bottom pair on the flop??

id view this as a weak Q or maybe a draw and i think one more bet would push him outta the pot

Marq

bubbleking wrote:

its a bit early in the tournament to be going to war with a marginal hand dont you think?

no.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bubbleking

Marq wrote:

no.

care to expand on that a bit?

PokerPissTaker

I think the bets were fine but a check on the river for sure Your only getting called by a hand thats beating you. If he has a bad Q (KQ, QJ, Q10) he'll talk himself into calling because he called the first 2 streets.

HiCloy

I'd raise more preflop (350 or so), or not at all

Check behind river

rest of hand is fine

Rnger

I would often check behind on the turn.. im not all that sure why though, to keep the pot small with a weak holding i guess. Is that bad?

Ste05

How many chips do you start with in this tournament, I assume you both had near to the starting stack for the hand. I'm sure most people know but I never play them so I was just wondering. I'd probably have raised more Pre-Flop also.

It looks fine, I may have checked the turn depending on stack sizes and I'd check behind always here on the River.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bops

i think you played it fine up to now

check is probably the best option, he isn't gonna call a bet with a busted draw, and he may have a 7 !!!!

if you feel he had a week Q or maybe TT or 99 - do you think you can get him to lay it down?? - it will probably cost you most of you stack - i'm guessing you started with 10k

if i was to bet, you're lookin at 4k leaving 3.5k behind

ntlbell

Can I just ask what made you decide to raise preflop?

bops

ntlbell wrote:

Can I just ask what made you decide to raise preflop?

passive limpers, button, and being an aggro little smurph

delanec8

bubbleking wrote:

care to expand on that a bit?

I think he might have meant that it makes absolutely no difference how early in a tournament it is, as far as going to war is concerned.

I could be wrong, it could just be a cryptic way of saying move up levels

Ollieboy

I know I'm going to hate posting this, but anyway.

I'm really supprised at the replys to this hand and Im wondering the same questions as NTL, why raise preflop with position. If you hit a flush draw or 2 pair or even flop a pair of aces, we want to keep players in the hand to get paid. If you have suit connectors or small pp's I like to limp as this keeps players in the hand for action rather than raising and forcing them out preflop. By raising your trying to steal the blinds or player the aggressor preflop so you can take any pot down on the flop.

You also post a hand similiar to this recently in the monthly Fitz game. I think you played this hand far to aggressive preflop and on the flop/turn. Now that we got to the river I think you have put 2.5k in the middle, not sure what your stack was before the hand start, but can you afford to leave that amount in there....?

Another point, when a player reluctantly calls your bet on the flop, it usually means he as a monster...

I dont like this play at all preflop, the bet on the flop is fine as you have to continue the aggression, but when your called, I would have slow down and kept my stack for another hand, playing a hand like this will get you knock out of tourneys early.

I do agree if he's on a flush draw you have to fire on the turn a pot size bet, but if you think he as a bust flush draw now, than checking is now fine on the river, if you think he as KQ or KJ would a push get him off, I bet he had a suit K7...lol. Also, in the early stages of these games, poor players like to limp with AA/KK etc.

5starpool

Ollieboy wrote:

Another point, when a player reluctantly calls your bet on the flop, it usually means he as a monster....

This is certainly not true in games around Dublin. Of course it is the case sometimes, but usually when a random person in a Dublin club grumbles as he is calling, it means he has a less than premium holding but can't let it go.

Ollieboy

5starpool wrote:

This is certainly not true in games around Dublin. Of course it is the case sometimes, but usually when a random person in a Dublin club grumbles as he is calling, it means he has a less than premium holding but can't let it go.

I agree with that, but in general players act weak when they are actually strong, most of them are looking for a Oscar more than a pot. And I did say it usually means they have a monster, not always.....lol

A quick call usually means a flush draw, hence why I always make a effert to mix these actions up so good players can't identify or misread a tell, you can do the same online by time involved to make a discison

sikes

I dont like preflop tbh, if I had a hand like J6o then I would think its ok if the size of the raise was a lot bigger but A8s is a good hand to take in position in a multiway pot.

cardshark202

I think preflop is pretty bad. If you're going to raise, I would raise much more. I think limping here is better though.
On the flop, the pot is about 1100 if my calculations are correct, so you bet little over half the pot, which is probably just about ok if you were going to bet, though I would not bet here. I would check behind after getting 3 callers. I might bet a blank turn for value.
As it stands, once you bet the flop and are called, I would check behind a lot on the turn. There is not much point in betting here imo, your hand is too weak to play a huge pot with.
I def check this river though.

Lissavalley

I hate the raise preflop. You're in position, why bloat the pot with a marginal hand.

Check behind on river. No worse hand than yours will call a bet unless he's a complee donkey. Someone with a queen won't fold now either.

Primewise

Ollieboy wrote:

I agree with that, but in general players act weak when they are actually strong, most of them are looking for a Oscar more than a pot

hahahah. love it.


there is nothing more satisfying though than when you successfully convince somebody you have nothign, and get his whole stack. I personally can't help bursting out laughing after this works for me. Usually a bad time to laugh when I've busted somebody for all their money lol

smurph

Thanks for the replies, yeah I did have the magic moment of "they were soooooteeed". Starting stacks were 7k. I fired the last bullet bet of 2.5K and he called after a long think.

My original post was actually wrong the Flop was 7d8dQh, sorry,

He turned over KdQd. The bet on the river was stupid as I was only getting called by something that is beating me. The reason I raised preflop was that there was alot of limping and folding to a raise going on. I should have raised more, and slowed down a bit after.

Thanks for replies.

Solksjaer

Hmmmm,
So you raised 5 bb and got 3 callers lol....Looks like they don't slow down in the 100 game either in the good ol SE. (I do like the place though).

PreFLOP..mad bet for paltry pot. (done that meself doh!)
FLOP You bet the A 8 very agressively but it's a good sized pot for the blind level so why not.
TURN. This guy called your flop bet, so he must have hit his Q with K or J kicker...(standard 5xBB call LOL)
RIVER. If he checks I check . The only thing to scare him is a push. Do you want to take that risk. If he was trapping, you have done less damage by calling the check. Hopefully it was A 7 v A8 ...:-)



Ooops saw the reply. ...who calls a 5bb raise anyway, they must all be loons.....

smurph

Solksjaer wrote:

Ooops saw the reply. ...who calls a 5bb raise anyway, they must all be loons.....

Ah sure if one calls they all have to "sure theres value now"

Shadowless

It's all fine puttin him on a flush draw on the flop but surely after he calls the turn bet we reckon we're behind alot here. I don't think our hand has much show-down value at all.

If I read him as weak and think he'll fold to a shove then I'm shippin the sherbert here. If he doesn't have the fold in him then it's a check obv.

I can't see that he'd be trapping here all too often. That's all a bit Matt Damon to me.

dacman

If i was in this hand i would have.

1.Either limped or made it 150 preflop.
2.Bet 350 on the flop.
3.Bet 950 on the turn.
4.Checked the river


Maybe some people will disagree but i dont like making big pots unless i have a big hand.

Gholimoli

i dont like the raise pre-flop if you are raising though raise more.
check behind on the flop when you get called ,check behind on the turn as well and check behind on the river.
use your position dont abuse it.

smurph

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont like the raise pre-flop if you are raising though raise more.
check behind on the flop when you get called ,check behind on the turn as well and check behind on the river.
use your position dont abuse it.

Yep, yep and "Sir Yes Sir".......

Gholimoli

smurph wrote:

Yep, yep and "Sir Yes Sir".......

lol i did deserve that Smurph:D
i should have added please to the list of my requests

Hectorjelly

You people are all genuinely mad. Preflop is absolutely fine. You have position and a good hand, punish those people for limping in. I think the raise size is fine, you dont mind getting callers. You have something like 140bbs, this is just like a cash game hand, and I would NEVER limp with a hand like that in a cash game in that position. Just limping along would be ok, but raising is better.

Post flop there are decisions to make. The flop bet is ok, but I would definitely consider checking. You got three callers preflop, so I would expect to usually not have the best hand here. One of the big advantages of raising preflop is it puts you totally in control of the hand, so you can take a free card here. Betting is ok here, but if you bet and get called you really need to check the turn. On the turn unless you have a specific read, its bad thinking to just nominally put someone on a flush draw. What they have is a range of hands, and against this range (Flush draw, set, Q) you should check. This does not mean you are giving up on the hand at all, as lloyd mentioned, it means you are exercising pot control with a mediocre hand. On the river had you checked you could call a bet happy that you may of induced a bluff. As played the river should definitely be checked behind, your hand looks like a bluff and if he folds you probably had the best hand.

ianmc38

I think the PFR is absolutely standard here.

River is an easy check. You will rarely to never get called by a worse hand and your hand has showdown value. If you bet he'll fold all missed draws and probably call with all queens. if he has an 8, your kicker is probably better....

sikes

I dont mind bloating the pot, however, we can do it cheaper than a 5x raise preflop having the same result but giving us better implied odds. Alternatively we can raise more and get the pot heads up with people incorrectly putting us on a big pair thinking they are getting the implied odds to call, which they arent. For whatever reason we are raising, I dont like the size of the raise.

robinlacey

sikes wrote:

I dont like preflop tbh, if I had a hand like J6o then I would think its ok if the size of the raise was a lot bigger but A8s is a good hand to take in position in a multiway pot.

raising with J6o here would be total lunacy.

the issue of whether to raise at all with A8s is a stylistic thing,i don't think either is right or wrong,personally i would be more inclined to raise,as a child of the jack charlton era i like a style of putting 'em under pressure while in position,others prefer trying to get in for cheap and hoping to make a hand.

i prefer my way because the other way relies on (a) making a hand - more often than not you dont, and (b) someone else making a hand thats good but not quite as good as yours at the same time,which is a bit too much of a coincidence to be hoping for as far as i'm concerned. i prefer to take the bull by the horns and actively try and create a situation rather than passively hoping for one to occur,however i don't think just limping along is terrible here,especially if you're not experienced playing postflop agressive poker. another point is that my style is probably higher varience.

in this hand i would raise more if i was raising.also,is the turn bet a bluff or what? as played i usually check the river unless i get the feeling he is calling with top pair and will be able to give up on the river if i push,this obviously depends on stack sizes as well as reads.

Solksjaer

a lot of peple have said raise more preflop...

The pot is 225 (4 limps plus sb) . So what is a good sized preflop bet here that's profitable a high percentage of the time ....800?

Goodluck2me

i think raising 78s > A8s. A8 imo is -ev, especially when we got to war with middle pairs.

mdwexford

Solksjaer wrote:

a lot of peple have said raise more preflop...

The pot is 225 (4 limps plus sb) . So what is a good sized preflop bet here that's profitable a high percentage of the time ....800?

425-500

Flushdraw

Hey Smurph,

It was a strange table we were at. Being more of a regular, I knew a few at the table and they are very limp/call with any 2 pretty cards. I would have raised a little more preflop. I dont mind the flop bet, but i would have checked behind on the turn and river.

You're already after putting in over a third of your stack before the river, and in this deep stack game, betting another 2.5k and leaving yourself with less than 2k is going to severely cripple you. Checking the river is by far the better option although i dont know if the A8 hand happened before or after this hand, which may have swayed you

Player in question and another each got in 4k when blinds were 25/50 on an Axxxx board. They both held A8 and chopped it up. Based on this, Smurph may have been called by a worse hand.

mewso

I'm absolutely mad. I would limp more often than raise here. I prefer punishing raisers when the blinds are higher and I know the enemy a bit better. As robin said it's a style thing. At the 25/50 level I'm pretty much doing bugger all except watching the play and limping with the odd hand to see cheap flops. Having said that if it's a very passive table then I'm happy enough to step up and be more agressive. Situation dependent I suppose but to be general I'm a limper at this stage.

robinlacey

i don't think we need to go crazy with raising more,but something like 300 or 350 would seem better to me.

sikes

robinlacey wrote:

raising with J6o here would be total lunacy.

I disagree. If we are raising to punish limpers i think theres very little difference between A8s and J6o, obviously a small amount, becuase we want to thin the field to one player or to take down the blinds now we are rarely getting to a showdown.

However with J6o we are never taking it multiway becuase its crap, thats why I would prefer to raise to isolate with that rather than with A8s which can play well enough multiway.

If we are raising to bloat the pot then A8s is prob fine,depending on how deep we are, but theres no need for the raise to be that big imo.