Baptism Question

Winters

When I was a baby, just only a month old, I was baptised. Now, being a young child I was clearly being introducted into the world of christinity unknowingly. My question is, now that I am older, smarter, wiser and educated ... is there any way to reverse a baptism?

robnubis

Ive wondered about that too...

Nevyn

You can defect.

Under Vatican II, it is even noted that a person has the right to choose
one's own faith, and the church gives you the choice to formally defect.
Just write to the Archbishop of Dublin, or possibly the bishop of the
diocese you were born in, and explain that under VII you are excercising the
right to defect. You will need to state where you were baptised, date of
birth and/or baptism, the names of your parents and Godparents also.

You may get a response explaining the 'consequences' of this, like not being
able to marry in a church etc., but simply reply explaining that you do not
believe in the Christian teachings because you are either gay, Athiest, or
of Pagan faith. Soon enough you will get your baptism certificate returned,
but amended with DEFECTION stamped all over it. Its rather simple, and you
will no longer be counted amongst their numbers.

Rev. Dr Diarmuid Martin
Archbishop of Dublin and Primate of Ireland,
Archbishop's House,
Drumcondra,
Dublin 9.

PDN

You learn something new every day. I have never heard of the Catholic Church allowing anyone to defect. Does this, however, mean that you are officially defective?

I am intrigued as to why anyone would want to reverse something that is meaningless anyway.

I also find it interesting that atheists would wish to defect. Wouldn't it make more sense to remain on the roll so that, in case they do something really wicked later in life, other atheists can blame it on a Christian? Hitler would make a much less plausible straw man if he had actually had his baptism certificate returned with a cancellation stamp.

Sean7

I wouldn't call it meaningless. It's a statement, written in black and white, that you are of aparticular religious faith.

You could get yourself excommunicated by doing something very offensive to Catholic beliefs. Although, I don't think they do that any more. Forgiveness and all that.

philologos

well it has huge meaning for Christians, being given new life through Christ.

PDN

Jakkass wrote:

well it has huge meaning for Christians, being given new life through Christ.

As a baby?

robnubis

Jakkass wrote:

well it has huge meaning for Christians, being given new life through Christ.

But people, like myself, dont beleive in this man who lived 2,000 years ago...

So it means nothing to us. This defection thing sounds kinda cool...

Mrs. MacGyver

Winters wrote:

When I was a baby, just only a month old, I was baptised. Now, being a young child I was clearly being introducted into the world of christinity unknowingly. My question is, now that I am older, smarter, wiser and educated ... is there any way to reverse a baptism?

Baptism can never be revoked. It's one of the main principle of Christian initiation. Remember doing an essay on it when i was in college.

Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Mt 28:19

'Baptism is the first of the three sacraments of Christian initiation. Baptism brings the individual to a new life in Christ and to membership of the Church. Baptismal grace carries with it a number of effects including the remission of original and all personal sin, and sharing in the priesthood of Christ. The newly baptised is born to new life and so becomes an adopted child of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. Baptism imprints an indelible mark on the soul, consecrating the baptised for Christian worship. Therefore baptism can not be repeated or revoked.

Baptism is a grace and a gift of God that does not depend on human merit. Therefore from the earliest times Baptism has been administered to children (as well as adults) despite their lack of understanding.'

Winters

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Baptism can never be revoked. It's one of the main principle of Christian initiation.

I understand how it cannot be "revoked" as per say. I cant rub normal water on my head and make it go away or anything. But im sure the whole 'act' and religious merits to it can be revoked as-per what Thead said.

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Baptismal grace carries with it a number of effects including the remission of original and all personal sin

So baptising a child is useless? A month or so old child really does not have any "origional" or "personal" sin. Why introduct a child that does not understand religion into a religion and indoctrinate it into those beliefs? Would it not be better to let the child grow into an educated teen or adult and let them make their own choice?

Mrs. MacGyver wrote:

Baptism imprints an indelible mark on the soul, consecrating the baptised for Christian worship. Therefore baptism can not be repeated or revoked.

This sounds somewhat, well .. medival. Because I had something done to be at such a young age, that I did not understand or comprehend I am locked into something I have no belief in? Im sure your God would much rather see people make their own choice about joining his religion insted of children being immediatly indoctrinated into it when they do not understand it.

I do not mind most religions, many do good things (Except Scientology which is nothing more then a dangerous cult). However I do not believe that something like baptism should be "irrevesable" as you descript and lock me or my inner 'spirit' into a belief I nor it believes in. Clearly irraversable baptism of a baby and the supsiquent indoctrination of a child into a certain belief would go against what any 'God' one would believe in would want.

It would immediatly take away our own free will which is what truly makes us unique.

Nevyn

Sean7 wrote:

I wouldn't call it meaningless. It's a statement, written in black and white, that you are of aparticular religious faith.

You could get yourself excommunicated by doing something very offensive to Catholic beliefs. Although, I don't think they do that any more. Forgiveness and all that.

That is very easily done.

"Excommunication can take two different forms. A ferendae sententiae
excommunication comes after a formal canonical trial, and is often a
matter of public record. A latae sententiae excommunication is
incurred automatically, under the terms of the Code of Canon Law, as
the punishment for certain offenses. In the case of a latae sententiae
excommunication, there is no requirement for formal trial or
announcement; in fact, the individual brings the punishment upon himself.

Excommunication latae sententiae is the canonical punishment for
offenses such as heresy, violation of the seal of confession, or
procuring an abortion. Catholics guilty of these offenses are
excommunicated automatically, even in cases when Church authorities
are unaware of their offense. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication#Roman_Catholic_Church

Automatic excommunication ("latae sententiae excommunication")

There are a few offenses for which Latin Rite Roman Catholics are
automatically excommunicated:

1. Apostasy (canon 1364),
2. Heresy (canon 1364),
3. Schism (canon 1364),
4. Desecration of the Eucharist (canon 1367),
5. Physical violence against the Pope (canon 1370),
6. Attempted sacramental absolution of a partner in a sin against
the sixth commandment of the Decalogue (canon 1378),
7. Ordination of a bishop without papal mandate (canon 1382),
8. Direct violation of the sacramental seal of confession by a
confessor (canon 1388),
9. Procurement of a completed abortion (canon 1398), or
10. Being a conspiring or necessary accomplice in any of the above
(canon 1329).

Nevyn

PDN wrote:

You learn something new every day. I have never heard of the Catholic Church allowing anyone to defect. Does this, however, mean that you are officially defective?

Nope I was excomnicated and am now a member of another religion.

Matthewthebig

Did you kick the pope? Please say you did

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Winters wrote:

When I was a baby, just only a month old, I was baptised. Now, being a young child I was clearly being introducted into the world of christinity unknowingly. My question is, now that I am older, smarter, wiser and educated ... is there any way to reverse a baptism?

I was in the same boat and I formally renounced my faith (RC). I live in Galway, so I wrote a letter to:
Diocesan Secretary
Reverend Ian O'Neill
Diocesan Office,
Galway Cathedral,
Galway
I realise you live in Dublin, but I'm giving that address for the benifit of anyone else who's reading this thread and wants to do the same.

I explained why I wanted to have nothing to do with the RCC. I stated my DOB and the parish I was baptised in. A week later I received a letter saying they were dealing with my request. 2 weeks after that I received another letter from the local parish priest where I was baptised.

Thaedydal wrote:

You may get a response explaining the 'consequences' of this, like not being
able to marry in a church

I didn't get this. I'm getting married to a RC in a RC Church this summer. I've explained to the priest that is marrying us that I am an atheist and he's still happy to marry us. I am not promising to bring up our kids in the RCC, and I have told him I do not want to receive communion, bless my self or perform any other such superstitious rituals on the day. He's happy with that ... in fact, he said he'd prefer if I didn't do any of the above.

Sean7

Well there you have it OP, request that your Parish/Diocese allow you to 'defect' (sounds very Cold War) or failing that, commit heresy in public. I think if I was formally leaving the church, I'd make a local priest listen to me read all of Thus Spoke Zarathustra, I don't know how I'd keep him there for the whole thing without it becoming illegal but I'd give it a shot.

kelly1

Winters wrote:

When I was a baby, just only a month old, I was baptised. Now, being a young child I was clearly being introducted into the world of christinity unknowingly. My question is, now that I am older, smarter, wiser and educated ... is there any way to reverse a baptism?

Winters, I would appeal to you not to throw away your salvation! The ransom for your soul was paid for by the Blood of Christ. How can you despise such a wonderful act of love!?

To my mind the effects of original sin are obvious. You only have to look at the news each evening to see the consequences. Please read:

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/7-8-98/SACRAMENTS.html

God bless,
Noel.

Nevyn

Douglas Gorgeous Rabies wrote:

I was in the same boat and I formally renounced my faith (RC). I live in Galway, so I wrote a letter to:
Diocesan Secretary
Reverend Ian O'Neill
Diocesan Office,
Galway Cathedral,
Galway
I realise you live in Dublin, but I'm giving that address for the benifit of anyone else who's reading this thread and wants to do the same.

I explained why I wanted to have nothing to do with the RCC. I stated my DOB and the parish I was baptised in. A week later I received a letter saying they were dealing with my request. 2 weeks after that I received another letter from the local parish priest where I was baptised.


I didn't get this. I'm getting married to a RC in a RC Church this summer. I've explained to the priest that is marrying us that I am an atheist and he's still happy to marry us. I am not promising to bring up our kids in the RCC, and I have told him I do not want to receive communion, bless my self or perform any other such superstitious rituals on the day. He's happy with that ... in fact, he said he'd prefer if I didn't do any of the above.

They will let you marry but what are the conditions, usually there has to be a promise that any children of the union will be baptised and raised in the church and you are not allowed take part in the sacrements you are not getting married in the church but by the church.

robnubis

Can you renounce breakfast?

Winters

kelly1 wrote:

Winters, I would appeal to you not to throw away your salvation!

I really dont think you can actually comprehend this. I do not believe in any way in a God or even in the existance of God. I cannot be "saved" as I do not believe there is anything to be saved from. You have clearly been brought up believing that everyone has to be saved from hell and that you somehow believe that such a place exists.

I do not believe in the place, I do not even beleive in the existance of a heaven or hell. I cannot be saved from something that in my mind does not exist and that there is no actual evidance to prove that they ever did or ever shall exist.

kelly1 wrote:

The ransom for your soul was paid for by the Blood of Christ. How can you despise such a wonderful act of love!?

But this once again is like the above. You believe that there was a person named "Jesus Christ" who daid for *my* sins. I do not believe in the existance the person nor his 'miracles'. To me saying that is like saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster cut off one of his noodley arms so I could live on and not go hungry. There is no actual factual based evidance to prove either right or wrong.

kelly1 wrote:

To my mind the effects of original sin are obvious. You only have to look at the news each evening to see the consequences.

Yes, there are murders, rapes, robberys and countless other acts of sin on the news each night. However 2000 years ago there were also countless murders, rapes and robberys etc. This is more along the lines of human nature. If the whole world believed whole heartedly in the Catholic Church (example) and took its teachings as a rule of thumb, due you really honestly believe that all crime would be eradicated and we will live in a utopian society?

We would not.

robnubis

Mrs. MacGyver

Winters wrote:

I understand how it cannot be "revoked" as per say. I cant rub normal water on my head and make it go away or anything. But im sure the whole 'act' and religious merits to it can be revoked as-per what Thead said.




So baptising a child is useless? A month or so old child really does not have any "origional" or "personal" sin. Why introduct a child that does not understand religion into a religion and indoctrinate it into those beliefs? Would it not be better to let the child grow into an educated teen or adult and let them make their own choice?



This sounds somewhat, well .. medival. Because I had something done to be at such a young age, that I did not understand or comprehend I am locked into something I have no belief in? Im sure your God would much rather see people make their own choice about joining his religion insted of children being immediatly indoctrinated into it when they do not understand it.

I do not mind most religions, many do good things (Except Scientology which is nothing more then a dangerous cult). However I do not believe that something like baptism should be "irrevesable" as you descript and lock me or my inner 'spirit' into a belief I nor it believes in. Clearly irraversable baptism of a baby and the supsiquent indoctrination of a child into a certain belief would go against what any 'God' one would believe in would want.

It would immediatly take away our own free will which is what truly makes us unique.

The religious merits of the act as far as i'm aware can't be revoked. But as was said in an earlier thread you can opt out of the Catholica Church and not be counted amongst it s members. Michael Drumm's book on the Sacraments of Christian Initiation has a good bit in it about this topic (for extra info on the subject).

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Thaedydal wrote:

They will let you marry but what are the conditions, usually there has to be a promise that any children of the union will be baptised and raised in the church and you are not allowed take part in the sacrements you are not getting married in the church but by the church.

I have told the priest that if we do I children, that I do not intend to have them baptised. He's OK with that.

When I got talking with the priest, I found he thinks First Communion and Confirmation are performed at a wrong age and they should be left until the person is old enough to decide for themselves. I agreed completely. He still thinks infant baptism is OK ... I couldn't follow his logic there. How can he think the age for Communion/Confirmation is wrong but the age for baptism is OK?

Asiaprod

Douglas Gorgeous Rabies wrote:

He still thinks infant baptism is OK ... I couldn't follow his logic there. How can he think the age for Communion/Confirmation is wrong but the age for baptism is OK?

If he is as liberal as you say, he prob. is referring to the danger of a young infant passing away in a state of Original sin.

Winters

Asiaprod wrote:

Original sin.

Can someone please define for me what this "original sin" is? It would be my understanding that a baby born would be free of sin. Or is everyone born a sinner under Christianity and that baptism just an excuse to get rid of it?

Nevyn

Orginal sin was bestod on all the decendants of Adam and Eve after they ate the apple from the tree of evil.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

Under christain doctrine all babies are concived with orginal sin which is washed away at baptism and women used to have to be blessed or church after being a vessel of oringal sin.

Mary was the exception having being born with out original sin and having gestated a devine child and did not have sex to concieve him.

kelly1

Winters wrote:

Can someone please define for me what this "original sin" is? It would be my understanding that a baby born would be free of sin. Or is everyone born a sinner under Christianity and that baptism just an excuse to get rid of it?

Original sin is the hereditary imperfection in all souls resulting from the first deliberate sin of the first man (Adam). Effectively this means we are all born without sanctifying grace.

Sanctifying grace is what makes the soul holy, gives it supernatural life and makes the soul just in God's sight. Without this grace we are unable to enter Heaven because only holy souls can exist in God's infinitely holy presence.

Original sin had the effect of making man mortal and giving him a strong tendency to sin. Baptism erases the guilt of original sin and makes up adopted sons and daughters of God.

Just to clarify, all babies are born with original sin but without actual sin of course.

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

Thaedydal wrote:

Under christain doctrine all babies are concived with orginal sin which is washed away at baptism and women used to have to be blessed or church after being a vessel of oringal sin.

Mary was the exception having being born with out original sin and having gestated a devine child and did not have sex to concieve him.

That would be Roman Catholic doctrine, but most non-Catholics would disagree.

For example, my own church would teach that we are all born with an inbuilt and inherited tendency to sin, but that would be no impediment to going to heaven. Once we reach an age of accountability we become responsible for the sins that we commit, and these sins need to be cleansed by faith in Christ. Baptism, for us, is a voluntary act undertaken as a believer to witness to others and to symbolise that your sins have been forgiven and washed away.

While we believe that Mary did give birth as a virgin, we hold that Mary was a sinner just like anyone else (even though God favoured her wonderfully by choosing her as a vessel to carry His Son). The issue of Mary having sex or not would not be a problem for us as far as her purity was concerned since e believe that sex is a wonderful and pure thing when enjoyed in its proper context of marriage.

robnubis

kelly1 wrote:

Original sin is the hereditary imperfection in all souls resulting from the first deliberate sin of the first man (Adam). Effectively this means we are all born without sanctifying grace.

Sanctifying grace is what makes the soul holy, gives it supernatural life and makes the soul just in God's sight. Without this grace we are unable to enter Heaven because only holy souls can exist in God's infinitely holy presence.

Original sin had the effect of making man mortal and giving him a strong tendency to sin. Baptism erases the guilt of original sin and makes up adopted sons and daughters of God.

Just to clarify, all babies are born with original sin but without actual sin of course.

God bless,
Noel.

So babies are evil?

BrianCalgary

robnubis wrote:

So babies are evil?

Read PDN's post for a clarification.

Nevyn

PDN wrote:

That would be Roman Catholic doctrine, but most non-Catholics would disagree.

You are right my apolgises.

tasky

http://amazingfacts.org/Resources/Download/PBLib/BK-BRN.pdf