[May 13] NTSA 25m Standard Pistol National Championships 2006

Sparks

From the NTSA website:

NTSA 25m Standard Pistol National Championships 2006
Written by SmallborePistolCoordinator
Friday, 27 April 2007

NTSA National Standard Pistol Championships 2006

To be held at the Indoor Range: Rathdrum Rifle and Pistol Club, Rathdrum, Co. Wicklow.
Sunday 13th May 2007

Championship: 60 shots at 25 metres

To be shot using .22lr calibre semi-automatic target pistol with five shot magazine or .22lr calibre revolver with five shot capacity (larger magazine or revolver capacities must be loaded with five shots only before each series).

Entry Fee: €15 to include NTSA levy of €2

Prizes for 1st to 3rd in Championship

Course of fire:

* 5 sighters in 150 secs,
* 4 series of 5 shots in 150 seconds each,
* 4 series of 5 shots in 20 seconds each,
* 4 series of 5 shots in 10 seconds each.
* There will be a 60 second loading period and 7 second attention period before each series.
* There weill be a two (2) minute preparation time before each detail.
* Details will last approximately 30 minutes each.

Targets used will be ISSF Precision 25m (200mm aiming mark, 50mm 10 ring) on the Megalink electronic target system.

Ties (from 4th place) to be broken by countback, highest number of 10's, 9's, 8's etc. or the highest number of inner tens, in that order. Ties from 1st to 3rd place to be broken by shoot-off in one 10 second series with a 150 second sighter series.

Sunday 13th May
Range Opens at 09:30

* Detail A - 10:00 (course of fire as above)
* Detail B - 10:45
* Detail C - 11:30
* Detail D - 12:15

20 Shot Final for top seven shooters – 13:00 (4 series of 10 seconds each) with a 150 second sighter series.
(A final will only be held if there is a possibility of a change in the finishing order should such a final be held)

To book a detail, go to www.rathdrumrpc.org and choose 'Book Detail' from the menu on the left. Follow the steps to book date, firing point/detail. A confirmation email will be sent to you to confirm your booking. Only available firing points/details will be displayed.

Vinniew

Since when have the NTSA been involved in Rimfire pistol shooting? or has it been going on all along and just another closely guarded secret in the world of irish shooting?
Coz I know the last time i asked about it I was told nothing was in place yet but suddenly we're about to see a national comp next weekend?


Vinniew

rrpc

Vinniew wrote:

Since when have the NTSA been involved in Rimfire pistol shooting? or has it been going on all along and just another closely guarded secret in the world of irish shooting?
Coz I know the last time i asked about it I was told nothing was in place yet but suddenly we're about to see a national comp next weekend?
Vinniew

Well.. always really, being the ISSF governing body in Ireland

But seriously Vinnie, we haven't been able to hold competitions until relatively recently due to there being no pistols allowed. The first competition was held in 2005, but the problem with venues has meant that the 2006 championship is only now being held in Rathdrum, since Rathdrum have now got the targets to hold the competition on.

As for closely guarded secrets:

http://targetshootingireland.org/content/view/180/2/

I note you have an AW93, thinking of taking part?

OK I see you've booked... Question answered

Kryten

Hi RRPC,

Is this match open to any pistol shooter with an interest and a half decent
.22 pistol or is it closed shop only for NTSA affiliated clubs.

Just need to know, as I am interested and have a half decent .22 pistol.

Cheers

Kryten

Sparks

We got asked this before Kryten - the answer is that if you want to shoot and have a half-decent .22 pistol, show up and we'll sort out the paperwork (you're meant to be a member of the NTSA to shoot in the NTSA nationals after all).

Thing is ... how decent is half-decent? RRPC ran some tests...

On Saturday afternoon, I ran a test on the pistol targets using a Walther P22 (belonging to one of our members). The pistol concerned is an ordinary .22 semi-automatic pistol, but fitted with a 6" barrel.

At no point whether shooting freehand (one-handed as per ISSF discipline) or benchrested was he able to achieve anything like a competitive score. Freehand the best score was 41/100, Benchrested the best score was 62/100.

In addition, the target frame was struck about seven or eight times. (one round even struck the light at the top of the target).

In view of this, we are not in a position to allow anything other than ISSF target pistols to be used at this event. I am aware that this will reduce the field considerably, but there are safety issues at play here as well as the strong possibility of targets being damaged to a significant extent.

There may well be other pistols in circulation that could be used effectively, but we would have to insist that proof of accuracy be presented before they would be allowed on the range. I'm not sure how this could be done, but it's something that will have to be insisted upon.

Given that the targets cost the club somewhere on the order of €25,000 you can't really blame them for wanting competitors to have pistols that are at least capable of hitting the target.

So basicly, if you have a .22lr pistol (revolver or semi-auto) that has a magazine capacity of 5 rounds and can hold a group size of say, 25cm at 25 metres from a rest, then come to the match. The pistol will have to have a trigger weight in excess of 1kg though. The rest of the rules can get waived for the first few matches, but that one's too important - if one person has a 1kg trigger and the other has a 50 gram trigger, it's not even close to a fair match.

(Rules for the match are on the web here by the way)

rrpc

Results and some photos

National 25m Standard Pistol - 13th May 2007
Name..............150 Second....20 Second....10 Second....Total
.........................1...2...3...4...1...2...3...4...1...2...3...4
Joe O'Donohoe...48.49.46.49..44.42.42.47..43.41.38.47....536
PJ Harding.........41.41.40.44..28.32.36.40..28.35.29.37.....431
Alan Kelly..........34.44.35.36..31.32.20.37..32.40.38.37.....416
Mark Dennehy....38.36.24.42..39.30.30.39..35.40.34.28.....415
Liam Crawford.....40.37.35.40..34.35.42.35..27.32.31.27....415
Vincent White.....28.44.31.21..24.30.41.39..38.35.34.38....403
Vjollca Neli.........45.38.46.43..42.41.41.39..33.36.35.34....473

The competition went off without any hitches and was enjoyed by all. Joe O'Donohoe is the National Champion for the second year in a row!

Detail B

Detail C

Joe O'Donohoe (DFST) receives his medal from NTSA Chairman Liam Crawford

Alan Kelly (CDPC) receives his medal from NTSA Chairman Liam Crawford

Joe O'Donohoe

Sparks

Good bit of fun, that match (and thanks again vinnie for the use of the AW93 - lovely piece of kit!).

Sparks

It's interesting, by the way, what does and doesn't carry over from air pistol to .22 pistol. The sight picture, the trigger control, all of that is a straight carryover - but straight after the shot's released, the recoil is a completely new element. Which meant that in the 150-second series, you were grand, and you could even manage the 20-second series if you stayed calm enough to count two seconds between shots, but the 10-second series was a right pain because there's no time for the initial settling. Lost a medal 'cos of that
Oh well. There's another championships due towards the end of october (more details later), so maybe there's be better luck then

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

but straight after the shot's released, the recoil is a completely new element.

The more modern pistols compensate quite a bit for the recoil in their mechanisms. The lads using the old Walther GSP's had a bit more of a fight on their hands, even though the extra weight is a help, it's still hard to get the machine back on target in the time.

Makes Joe's score all the more impressive :cool:

I believe the Walther SSP is quite good at reducing recoil, to such an extent that it is even lighter than the 'light' model of the Feinwerkbau AW93. The SSP is 970g, the AW93 Light is 1080g the Morini CM22 Light is 20g lighter at 950g, but it utilises an Aluminium frame.

Anyway, there are a few more competitions in the pipeline. Brendan has to figure out when they should be run, but there's also the ISSF 25m Pistol competition which is run in a precision stage and a rapid stage (30 shots each).

You have five minutes for each 5 shot string in the precision stage, and 3 seconds per shot in the rapid stage.

Now there's a challenge!

Vinniew

Sparks wrote:

Good bit of fun, that match (and thanks again vinnie for the use of the AW93 - lovely piece of kit!).

No probs..... Glad someone put it to better use than I did yesterday...

Vinniew

Many thanks for all at Rathdrum for yesterday's shoot.....most enjoyable......lookng forward to the next one....

rrpc

Vinniew wrote:

Many thanks for all at Rathdrum for yesterday's shoot.....most enjoyable......lookng forward to the next one....

Thanks Vinnie, it was nice to be able to put faces to a couple of the names on here. You're assistance on the day was greatly appreciated, certainly by me, and I'm sure Sparks will definitely agree having just pipped the chairman on countback.

Liam wants to run a couple more competitions in the summer, so watch this space. The 2007 Championship has to be moved back a bit, so you'll have plenty of time to practice!

We're going to try and get a club pistol for Rathdrum, and I'm going to be investigating getting one myself. So the competition should heat up a little

Sparks

I'm sure Sparks will definitely agree having just pipped the chairman on countback.

I'd agree even more if I'd gotten off the last two shots, or wound the sights the right way, and taken the bronze medal instead of missing it by a point...

rrpc

A question for you Sparks. You were saying something about the sights needing adjustment because you were aiming with a different eye. I don't quite follow that seeing as you will automatically aim with your dominant eye and the sights are far enough away that it should make no difference which eye you aim with????

Sparks

If I'm shooting with my left eye and my right hand (I'm cross-dominant) on a pistol set up for the right eye and right hand (as vinniew's is), I'll group nicely in the white at three o'clock. If I then set up the pistol sights for me, and vinnie goes back onto it, he groups nicely in the white at nine o'clock.

If you think about the way I have to hold the pistol and the way he has to (and particularly about the angle the barrel makes with the forearm and how you have to turn your wrist), it makes sense.

rrpc

If I'm shooting with my left eye and my right hand (I'm cross-dominant) on a pistol set up for the right eye and right hand (as vinniew's is), I'll group nicely in the white at three o'clock. If I then set up the pistol sights for me, and vinnie goes back onto it, he groups nicely in the white at nine o'clock.

Well I'm cross-dominant also, and I've used the Walther GSP's and the AW93 with no adjustments to the sights and although I was a bit to the left with the AW93, I was more or less (taking into account inexperience) in the centre with the Walther. (actually all over the place the first time)

I scored 138/180 the first time I fired the Walther.

I can't see where the difference arises. You would certainly point the pistol at a different spot if you were using you're non-dominant eye, but if you lined it up again with the target, the change in the sight alignment would have to be miniscule. It would be the same as if you fired you're rifle at a target from slightly different angles.

Or at least that's how I figure it. :eek:

Sparks

That's not quite how it works for me rrpc, if I use my right eye, I have to adjust the angle of my wrist to get the pistol on target with my arm naturally straight. End result is that I have to adjust my sights if I switch eyes.

You might not have that problem. It might just be the way I hold the pistol grip, of course, or any one of a dozen other variables.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

End result is that I have to adjust my sights if I switch eyes.

And believe me folks, that is one stomach churning sight

But seriously, I always believed, and I'd nearly want to start doing the maths on it, that pistol shooting was the one area where us cross dominants didn't have a problem.

I have noticed Brendan pushing his head over to look down his arm with his left eye, but that's just the rifle shooter struggling to get out. You can shoot perfectly naturally, right handed with a dominant left eye (or at least I can).

It may be Mark, that like Brendan, you're trying to shoot rifle with the pistol, when you should do what is the most natural thing and just point.

I really will have to do the maths.......

Sparks

the one area where us cross dominants didn't have a problem.

Well, practically speaking (no, not that practical, the other one), we don't - 16 clicks on vinnie's sights and I'm on target.

And I don't know how you shoot rifle rrpc, but I just point that as well

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Well, practically speaking (no, not that practical, the other one), we don't - 16 clicks on vinnie's sights and I'm on target.

16 clicks at 25m is 112mm :eek:

There's no way your eyes are that far apart

And I don't know how you shoot rifle rrpc, but I just point that as well

I could tell

Kryten

Sparks wrote:

I'd agree even more if I'd gotten off the last two shots, or wound the sights the right way, and taken the bronze medal instead of missing it by a point...

Yeah, you were robbed there. Your scores were a lot more repeatable than mine. I was impressed at the setup there. An enjoyable shoot and many thanks to Rathdrum and the NTSA, I am also looking forward to the next shoot. I can see this getting popular.

Sparks

Well the next shoot's date has been set for Sunday, July 8, so start practising...

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Well the next shoot's date has been set for Sunday, July 8, so start practising...

*Sigh* No rest for the wicked

I'll talk to Brendan and see what he has in mind. We might look at the 25m Pistol event for a change. By the time the year is out we'll have run just about every competition possible on those targets bar 300m

fat-tony

Vinniew wrote:

Many thanks for all at Rathdrum for yesterday's shoot.....most enjoyable......lookng forward to the next one....

PM me an email address and I'll send you some piccies from the competition. They will be compressed to hell for email, though. If you want to send me a postal address I'l send you on a DVD of the stuff that was video'ed...

Sparks

A few more photos:


The scores display PC for the spectators out in the prep area...


...and what it displays.


Register Keeper (aka Range Officer) station.


Changing the targets over from 25yd rifle to 25m pistol.


vinniew shooting


First detail loading...


...and firing.