Dublin/Leinster as a Lost Cause in Election 2007?

Transport21 Fan

I might be wrong in this assumption, but to me there seems to be an element particulary mostly from Labour and the Greens that Dublin is basically finished, so "let's get it right with Cork, Limerick, Galway, Mayo etc..."

I find this mentality sickening, they seem to think that the capital, because of the M50 and overcrowded DARTS/Luas is beyond hope and so let's get it right this time in Mayo and Ennis.

Hence, why the crackpot Rathlin Island to Dingle WRC (or whatever is the route this week) is top of the public transport agenda and Navan rail link is not.

DerekP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Hence, why the crackpot Rathlin Island to Dingle WRC (or whatever is the route this week) is top of the public transport agenda and Navan rail link is not.

I have it on good authority that next week its Iceland to the Cape Verde Islands. Trevor Sargent had it terminating in Tralee this week, but Kerry isn't happy as a few heads bought property in the sun, so onwards it goes. Reykiavik aren't too happy as Icelands first railway will run to the Charlestown car showroom.

dermo88

The Western Association of National Knowledge gathered today in Ballyguckian to announce their manifesto for the 2007 General Election.

Their manifesto has been acclaimed as nothing less than revolutionary.

- The forced relocation of all Dublin Residents to a new city in Mayo/Roscommon in anticipation of an increase in sea levels.
- The genetic modification of rice, in anticipation of a growth in global warming to counter food shortages.
- Forced repatriation of all foreigners, who are taking our land and our women, in order to protect the genetic purity of the Irish race.
- Legalisation of all drugs.
- Removal of all taxation on alcohol, tobacco, motor vehicles and fuel.
- The replacement of the Euro by a new currency, called the Pension, which will be floated at 5 Euro to the Pension.
- The invasion of Northern Ireland
- The reconstruction of all closed raiilways in Northern Ireland, with voluntary labour from Dublin.
- Divorce will be made illegal.
- Condoms will be banned.
- Mandatory death sentence for

Their spokesman, Mauris O Ludraman announced this as a "New Deal" for the people of Ireland.

I think this is going to end up in the Thunderdome......

Calina

Believe me,

I'm tempted.

For the record, if you think that Labour, the Green Party et al have given up on the Dublin area in terms of getting votes, this has more to do with Labour, the Green Party et al and you should take it up with them rather than attacking any campaigners on behalf of non-Pale transport initiatives regardless of whether you agree with said initiatives or not. Ultimately, the issue lies with voters in Dublin - of whom I am one - whether Labour and the Green Party et al are electable in that area. It has nothing to do with the social and infrastructures in Dublin. If the votes were there to be taken, then you can be sure they'd be trying.

Given the attitude of some Dublin voters towards people and life outside the capital, I'd be going for forced relocation to Saint Kilda and get them off the island altogether, but hey, that's just me and it's not a transport policy.

That being said, the case in Dublin is of repairing broken things caused by past mistakes and T21, although I don't agree with all of the provisions in it, goes a way to doing quite a lot of that. I'd be surprised if any of the "other" parties could come up with too much better. It is laudable, however, that people look at doing things better in other, growing, cities before, in 15 years time, Cork/Limerick/Galway turn into mini messes like Dublin. Posts like this, however, give me the impression that there are people in Dublin who feel that all other cities should have to put up with the mess they put up with, why should they escape.

If the WRC is top of the political agenda - and I'd venture to say that for a lot of people it really is not - that says a lot about the attitude of the voters in both areas: those pursuing the WRC have made their view count a lot more than those in the Navan route area. For that, I think - regardless of the merit of the WRC plan per se - I think the WRC supporters deserve some recognition for forcing their wishes to the top of their agenda. As for Navan, I'll go along and say yes it's needed. But hell, if the people of Navan and associated stations haven't made their voice loud enough then ultimately, they need to yell a little louder.

But it's easier to attack the supporters of the WRC corridor, isn't it T21 rather than suggest that people this side of the country are being somewhat apathetic in making their views known and count.

Public transport is something which affects the country as a whole, not just Dublin. And although Navan is in the commuter belt, it is not part of Dublin per se, it is not in the M50 basin.

In short, Dublin is a mess, no one seems to be able to agree on how to fix it, anything that gets suggested spends years in planning during which time the mess gets worse. I personally think the country would be much, much better off if all the political parties took the time to learn from the experience and say "we will not let it happen in Cork/Limerick/Waterford/Galway/wherever".

They have to fix Dublin anyway. Why not show a little forward planning for the rest of the country? Something which is - generally - sadly, sadly lacking in this country.

dermo88

I agree with a lot of what you say, but the question with solving these problems is which is first, the chicken or the egg.

Theres more than just transport at stake. Its attitudes. Its behaviour. Its Education. Healthcare. Value for money, especially since Ireland has become so expensive. Our competitiveness is at stake, and our quality of life.

1. The Property Market.

The reality is that the longer that the property boom goes on, the more at risk the property market is of a crash. There won't be a soft landing, despite estate agents, auctioneers, builders, politicians and banks all talking along those lines.

Since World War One, there have been 52 property booms worldwide, and each one has ended in tears. There is a dangerous arrogance, a complacency if you like, that Ireland is different. The Japanese thought they were different as well at the height of their Beburu Kenzai in 1989. They were putting gold flakes on their sushi as a fashion statement. The paralels in Ireland are that the beautiful people are more likely to snort a line of charlie in the toilets. Its Gods way of saying you've got too much money, its irrational exhuberance.

The Irish economy was inbalanced with excessive resources placed on residential property construction. For every 10,000 houses built in one year, 1% is added to Irish economic growth, and in 2006, 90,000 new houses were built. Its already slowing down.

However, the dormitory towns are badly linked by public transport to the capital, and to their respective regional centres. If investment is made in transport links, then their asset values will be protected.

Take a look at DART. During the 1980-1992 period, where property values elsewhere in Ireland were stagnant, or dropped in real terms, properties between Howth and Bray, with the exception of Kilbarrack doubled in price in real terms. This asset growth, and returns to the exchequer in capital gains taxes, profits, stamp duties, estate agent taxes, etc far exceeded the IEP100 Million construction costs, and the IEP33 Million in state grants for the operation of the suburban rail system (pre 1984), and then DART. DART was used as an advertisement by estate agents. So too is suburban rail, and Luas.

The same justification can be used for the Clonsilla to Navan rail link. Just on the basis of property prices alone, its construction is justified.

The same applies to Glounthaune to Midleton, where there has been substantial expansion of the towns on its route.

And theres a lot more places where this can be used as justification.

This is a factor which is completely overlooked in cost-benefit analysis terms. But lets not just focus solely on the rail network. Roads too have a major role to play.

2. Ireland for all, the nation, not just Dublin.

I've seen both sides of the urban-rural divide. I am an Irishman first, a Dubliner second, and if the bad times happen, it will be the rural towns that have prospered during the good times that will suffer most. The key to their prosperity and survival are fast efficient links from the core to the periphery. The key to our nations future is to ditch the GAA colours and look to our flag instead.

I heard rural people mock Dublin, yet this was where they went on December 8th, when the products were not available at the right price in the local stores in Wexford, Ennis, etc. Its simply because when its all available in one location, economies of scale apply.

3. The WRC

Congratulations to the WRC group for their achievements in securing the bit of the WRC that should actually proceed and succeed. That is the Southern portion between Ennis and Athenry. However, many are deeply concerned about the Northern section, for reasons outlined many times before. The property market argument that justifies the other links cannot be used here, it falls flat on its face.

4. The cost of living.

Look at our minimum wage. Its incredibly high by International standards. Now, I am all for looking after the weakest in society, but what happens when the weakest in society are crushed under the burden of an artificially inflated cost of living, through taxes on taxes on taxes. They may pay next to nothing on income tax, but the indirect taxes crush us far harder than we think. Look at that aspect.

The reason in my view is due to a switch from direct to indirect taxation. The EU expansion Eastwards threatens our competitive position as the new Eastern European economies, such as Poland, Estonia have looked to us as their model for economic growth. IF many taxes and levies are reduced or removed, then there is scope for reducing our cost of living, and ensuring that the economy remains competitive. Ireland no longer has the option of going to the printing presses in Sandyford. Our Government can live on less than its taking away.

The model for this strategy are the original Tiger economies, Hong Kong and Singapore, where they reduced their costs when threatened with economic difficulties. It will help restore sanity into our economy. I'm fine with a reverse Keynesian strategy of increasing indirect taxes in the good times, and then reducing them in the bad times, but our Government has never had the fiscal discipline to actually do that before. They do not know how to handle the economic policy that goes with giving away a currency.

It needs teamwork from all sides to do all that.

Why does it cost 10 Euro in Ireland, and 5 everywhere else. We've gone to Scandinavian price levels without Scandinavian service standards.

WhiteAp

excellent post dermo.

Chris_533976

dermo88 wrote:

Why does it cost 10 Euro in Ireland, and 5 everywhere else. We've gone to Scandinavian price levels without Scandinavian service standards.

Sums this country up nicely.

Zoney

We don't have Scandinavian-level taxes (*even* considering indirect taxes). We want the best services without being aware that we are paying for them, and our govt. has been trying to facilitate that mindset. We do of course have large amounts of money to spend nevertheless. I'd ask though, this being the commuting transport forum, whether people would have forgone the much-needed road projects (essentially building a national road network practically from scratch) and gone for schools instead? I doubt it.

The reason there's even an alleged intention of now tackling other areas is probably the fact of road projects being more under control now and not costing millions more than they were costed to. I think the massive overruns that persisted up until 2-3 years ago are not particularly forgivable, as the money has lined the pockets of the construction industry rather than financed the much needed service improvements in areas other than transport.

Low taxation has facilitated prosperity, but as a result it is all the more critical to properly manage the money that the govt. does have to "play" with.

dermo88

Thats correct to a degree zoney. Tax strategy was nicely summed up by Jean Baptiste Colbert in one line ""The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least possible amount of hissing"

Cost overruns happen with major projects. Its happened with the Channel Tunnel, the Japanese Tunnels, Luas, Mini CTC, being the best known examples. Its the nature of the beast.

Its human nature to expect the best for less.

The other thing is, rural voters and lobbyists are much more organised, due to the nature of community life in the regions. Voluntary organisations such as the GAA play a much greater role, and they are better organised on account of the need to ensure that their communities survive by being heard, rather than ignored.

In Dublin, and other cities, that sense of community spirit won't be as strong, due to the variety of recreational outlets available. People will socialise and organise, but they will travel to do that. There won't be a concentration of people with the same outlook in say....Tallaght. Take IRN, or Platform11. There won't be a whole bunch of people concentrated in Tallaght, they will come from all around the region, and meet in the centre.

Thats why the rural lobby is more organised. They are in a smaller number of locations, and are able to lobby better as a result.

I'll be honest, I was being slightly melodramatic on our tax levels, but when you hear someone from Switzerland or Finland complain about "how expensive it is", you do have to ask questions.

Schuhart

Calina wrote:

Given the attitude of some Dublin voters towards people and life outside the capital, I'd be going for forced relocation to Saint Kilda and get them off the island altogether, but hey, that's just me and it's not a transport policy.

In fairness, I'm not sure that this reflects the extent to which Dublin has been vandalised by the rest of the country. An amount of the hostility that you now see symbolised by the WRC debate comes at the end of a long road where Dublin has been at the receiving end of some fairly ****ty sticks, such as the Shannon stopover. These are policies that made no national sense and are only explicable if interpreted as responses to a desire in the regions to see Dublin mutilated at any cost.

Calina wrote:

They have to fix Dublin anyway. Why not show a little forward planning for the rest of the country? Something which is - generally - sadly, sadly lacking in this country.

That's something everyone agrees on. As I see it what is lacking is not only political mobilisation in Dublin, but also in the regional cities. I cannot honestly see why the regional cities join in with the rural anti-Dublin mindset that ultimately frustrates their development. If memory serves, the recent census returns showed that the regional cities were growing slower than rural areas. That sounds like a problem to mobilise around, but it does involve doing things like shutting down the building of one-off housing in the countryside. What's the chances of hearing a strong voice on that agenda from Galway city? Much easier to bang on about Dublin.

dermo88 wrote:

Thats why the rural lobby is more organised. They are in a smaller number of locations, and are able to lobby better as a result.

I think there's an extra element, highlighted by your comment I am an Irishman first, a Dubliner second. I'd share that outlook and I think most Dubliners do - possibly reflecting how many of us have close family links to other parts of the country, making a parochial outlook just plain silly. But go to county X and I think the allegience works the other way around. For the sake of argument, Kerry doesn't essentially give a damn about Cork or Ireland in general until its own interest is looked after. Take Clare and the Shannon Stopover - did they care about the damage they did to the national economy to keep somebody's cousin on a packed payroll.

I've found in some discussion here that you can only understand the mindset of certain contributors when you realise that they have no sense of common bond and feel someone might as well be in London or Boston as in Dublin. Once the county boundry is passed, its all the same to them. You might as well be from the Moon.

I hate to think the only option in this situation is for Dublin and the Mid East region to grow the same kind of 'feck the rest' attitude. But I'm finding it hard to see an alternative.

dermo88

We all lose if we went go the GAA t-shirt road of national development. Remember, Dublin has a young population, and it has grown from 250,000 to 1.5 Million in 40 years. What does that indicate.

It indicates that there are people from the country, who came to Dublin, married Dublin people, and made more Dubliners. It also indicates that many of those Dubliners spent their summers in the countryside. Many Dubliners are aware of rural issues as a result, through their relatives and friends, and have direct personal experience of the good and bad aspects of that.

Dublin needs the countryside to survive, and the nation needs Dublin, and it needs a successful capital for the nation to thrive. We take a lot for granted, but there are'nt many capitals where you can be in pristine countryside in less than an hour.

Slice

In response to the opening post I would agree alot with Callina in that it comes down to what is on the political agenda for voters of each region. and Dublin's neglect in this area is simply a reflection of the fact that perhaps it's not that big an issue in the GDA. There is no excuse for poor transport and infrastructure in the rest of the country especially when there is a marked difference in quality between what's available in the regions and what's available in the Greater Dublin Area. I'm not talking in terms of specific issues like the WRC but more the investment in public transport and new infastructure that is appropriate for the area in question. While anyone can recognise that investment in Dublin has increased in an effort to meet demand can the same be said of the rest of the country? Regardless of whatever form that increase in investment might take, WRC or no WRC.

Dublin has been at the receiving end of some fairly ****ty sticks, such as the Shannon stopover

If the Shannon stopover is the only or the worst example you can come up with to back up this comment I don't think it's enough to validate your point. I'm not in favour of the Shannon stop-over but what detrimental effect has it had on Dublin or the country? And more importantly how does this effect measure up to the effect on the disparity between Dublin as against the regions had the Shannon stopover never existed?

Schuhart

Slice wrote:

While anyone can recognise that investment in Dublin has increased in an effort to meet demand can the same be said of the rest of the country?

I recognise that in the last few years, after its become critical, Dublin’s infrastructure is starting to get attention. I don’t recognise a relative neglect for the regions. What I notice in the regions is resources being used but scattered – every town getting its mile of road, instead of the regional cities being prioritised. That’s what I’m getting at when I wonder at why the regional cities put themselves in the same category as Nenagh. For the sake of argument, in the Cork Airport debt argument, you never hear Cork advocates query why roughly the same amount of money as they need to be debt free was chucked at a half-dozen tiny regional airports that serve fewer people than Cork and simply don’t have the ability to make the same contribution to regional development.

The West of Ireland does get front loaded infrastructure, for what its worth. That’s why the West is paved with airports and Mayo is peppered with rail served towns. The regional cities never seem to connect with that being their problem – the investment they should be getting is spent keeping an unneeded rail service going through Ballyhaunis.

Slice wrote:

If the Shannon stopover is the only or the worst example you can come up with to back up this comment I don't think it's enough to validate your point. I'm not in favour of the Shannon stop-over but what detrimental effect has it had on Dublin or the country? And more importantly how does this effect measure up to the effect on the disparity between Dublin as against the regions had the Shannon stopover never existed?

There’s a physical limit to the amount of material that can be put into a post and for that post still to be digestible. That causes a problem, because if our starting point is really ‘how did the Shannon stopover do any harm to anyone’, there’s really quite a bit of ground to go through. What the Shannon stopover did, briefly, was divert a whole load of business to the UK, particularly Manchester. That business was lost to the State.

This was at a time when the country really needed the business. And this wasn’t something that helped ‘the regions’ to use that blanket term. It was to keep a few hundred Clare people in unneeded jobs. The tax incentives offered in Shannon was what cause the cluster of firms to locate there – and yes I am aware of the ritualistic ‘tick the box’ survey done recently to try to pretend there is some local need for the stopover.

There’s a mindset that seems to assume that anything that’s bad for Dublin is good for the regions, so any wound inflicted on the city must be supported on grounds that surely this reduces the ‘disparity’ between Dublin and the regions as if there wasn’t a ‘disparity’ between Ireland and the rest of the world that provides more pressing grounds for worry. This leads to ludicrous decisions like the stopover or, for the sake of argument, the decision to locate the Garda Training College in splendid rural isolation instead of in a city where it could develop synergies with a third level institution. But once the thing is not in Dublin, that seems to stop the regional cities from saying 'what the **** are you at?'

That’s not a full answer for your point, because that would take a very long time. I’d recommend Tom Garvin’s recent book Preventing the Future: why was Ireland so poor for so long? as a work that does something to address this space.

Its by no means a bible, just a exploration of themes that deserve more study. But we have to start discovering our own country somewhere as we really are tremendously ignorant of our own situation and how we got here (yes, I do include myself in that). Seriously, and I don’t mean this personally as I know you are not alone, but if there’s really people out there thinking in all innocence thinking that the Shannon stopover did some good for regional development it only illustrates the extent to which Irish public debate involves a language of fantasy far removed from the reality of our existence.

Transport21 Fan

Schuhart wrote:

I think there's an extra element, highlighted by your comment I am an Irishman first, a Dubliner second. I'd share that outlook and I think most Dubliners do - possibly reflecting how many of us have close family links to other parts of the country, making a parochial outlook just plain silly. But go to county X and I think the allegience works the other way around. For the sake of argument, Kerry doesn't essentially give a damn about Cork or Ireland in general until its own interest is looked after. Take Clare and the Shannon Stopover - did they care about the damage they did to the national economy to keep somebody's cousin on a packed payroll.

I think there is a lot of truth to this. But it depends on the county. Some parts outside Dublin do contain people whom are actually aware they are living in a country called Ireland.

By at the same time, I have yet to meet a single "Irish" person from Mayo. Being Irish is not how people in Mayo see themselves.

The GAA takes the blame for a lot of this. For a so called national organisation the GAA has done more to disolve the national identify than any other organisation.

What was the most "Irish" event to ever take place at Croke Park? The England-Ireland rugby international. I have been to many GAA finals at Croker were halfway through the anthem the woofing and yelling starts. Now compare that to when the national anthem is played at a rugby or soccer international...you can hear a pin drop and it's sung with passion from start to finished.

One is more likely to meet an alien from another planet than encounter a Mayo person who thinks of themselves as an Irish citizen. They simply do not exsist - being Irish means nothing to them it seems. And it has to be a relatively recent situation as in 1798 people in Mayo went to war against the British Crown as part of a "United Irishmen" uprising. But then again, there was no such administrative county as "Mayo" back then either.

A really good study would be how this replacement of Irish identity was replaced with a GAA county jersey alligence instead. Because it most certainly is very real and getting worse year by year. It's very bad for the social fabric of the country as a whole too.

Slice

Just to counter your point about the Shannon stop-over having a detrimental effect on the country I'd point out that the Shannon Free Zone probably wouldn't have developed as it did without the stop-over. As the website points out about the SDZ; "over 120 companies have chosen to invest in Shannon. These companies employ almost 8,000 people and generate exports of €2.5bn per annum". To the same effect; I'm sure Cork would not be the location of so many pharmaceutical companies had the links to North America been via Dublin as oppose to the West. In case it's not appreciated the pharmaceutical industry happens to be one of the largest in the country. In fact practically every other large industry, except perhaps for tourism but including the construction industry, can attribute its growth to the multinational sector which pharmaceuticals are part of. Around half of the multinationals are based outside the Dublin area.

Of course the stop-over is antiquated today but what would its absence have done to contribute to lopsided development not to mention its effect on the national economy? It's an academic point to be discussing it now but I'm just saying Ireland may be a very different place without it and possibly not for the better. We'll never know for sure but to assume it was entirely detrimental is plain stupid.

Schuhart

Transport21 Fan wrote:

A really good study would be how this replacement of Irish identity was replaced with a GAA county jersey alligence instead. Because it most certainly is very real and getting worse year by year. It's very bad for the social fabric of the country as a whole too.

Agreed. Another factor in the mix is the way that our economic success is driven by foreign companies locating here. Hence, Irish people are really isolated from the strategic decisions that actually drive our commercial life and, ultimately, pay the bills. Someone in Texas decides how Dell are going to try to take on the world, not someone in Ireland. I think this leaves us a bit like the Hobbits - dimly aware there's a world out there, but convinced that in some way it means nothing to us. That allows these local allegiences to thrive, as there's no real awareness of how precarious life is on this little rock.

Slice wrote:

I'd point out that the Shannon Free Zone probably wouldn't have developed as it did without the stop-over. As the website points out about the SDZ; "over 120 companies have chosen to invest in Shannon. These companies employ almost 8,000 people and generate exports of €2.5bn per annum".

You are ignoring the impact of the tax break. The air link is over-emphasised, to try and hitch the future of the packed payroll in Shannon Airport to the companies that have located there. The proof of the pudding is the eating – the stopovers going, but that’s not anticipated to have any great impact on the companies located there.

Slice wrote:

I'm sure Cork would not be the location of so many pharmaceutical companies had the links to North America been via Dublin as oppose to the West.

Why are you sure? And why are you ignoring the costs imposed by the stopover making any possibility of direct flights to Cork Airport impossible? You’ve already walked past the business lost to the UK, and the decision to persist with the stopover even after it was illustrated that many North America passengers were opting to come to Ireland via London. We might also mention in this connection the way that Dublin was left with a runway too short for fully laden cargo aircraft, pushing more business at Manchester. To mention but a few.

We'll never know for sure but to assume it was entirely detrimental is plain stupid.

To ignore the high cost the stopover imposed on the county is plain stupid. There’s simply no reason to scratch around in this desert of a policy to find some justification.

Metrobest

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I think there is a lot of truth to this. But it depends on the county. Some parts outside Dublin do contain people whom are actually aware they are living in a country called Ireland.

By at the same time, I have yet to meet a single "Irish" person from Mayo. Being Irish is not how people in Mayo see themselves.

The GAA takes the blame for a lot of this. For a so called national organisation the GAA has done more to disolve the national identify than any other organisation.

What was the most "Irish" event to ever take place at Croke Park? The England-Ireland rugby international. I have been to many GAA finals at Croker were halfway through the anthem the woofing and yelling starts. Now compare that to when the national anthem is played at a rugby or soccer international...you can hear a pin drop and it's sung with passion from start to finished.

One is more likely to meet an alien from another planet than encounter a Mayo person who thinks of themselves as an Irish citizen. They simply do not exsist - being Irish means nothing to them it seems. And it has to be a relatively recent situation as in 1798 people in Mayo went to war against the British Crown as part of a "United Irishmen" uprising. But then again, there was no such administrative county as "Mayo" back then either.

A really good study would be how this replacement of Irish identity was replaced with a GAA county jersey alligence instead. Because it most certainly is very real and getting worse year by year. It's very bad for the social fabric of the country as a whole too.

Here's a funny thing. On the rare occasions I've stepped into an Irish bar in Sydney, I've seen a bunch of off-their-tits twenty-somethings wearing Mayo and Galways GAA jerseys. Mayo first, Irish second, is the attitude on display here.

Not only are these jerseys a crime against fashion, it's just odd that people travel tens of thousands of miles so that they can put on their Mayo jersey and sup guinness with some other Mayo people. And it's almost always West of Ireland county jerseys that are being worn in Australia.

We are an odd nation in so many ways. I look at all the other European nations and I don't see evidence of this parochialism that blights Irish life.

When the votes are being counted in the Election, the sad truth is that the majority of them are cast for "the local man" who'll fix the pothole and build a new shed for the local school. To most of rural Ireland, things like full employment, hypermodern tram lines that the world envies and the highest growth rates in Europe are abstract concepts that are peripheral to their lives.

I think one reason why this "county nationalism" exists is that the political situation in Northern Ireland has made the Irish flag a badge of shame, not the symbol of honour it is in other countries. In Australia, flags fly proudly in people's front gardens, from the tops of skyscrapers and at any public event. In Ireland, you're lucky to see a flag on an important building, and it always seems to look tatty and unkempt. I don't know why, but with the changed political situation what needs to happen is for the flag to be reclaimed by ordinary citizens as a symbol of pride and not division in Celtic Tiger Irland.

I also think we need new buildings to promote national identity. What I think we need is a new "Ireland museum," as part of the PD's "new heart for Dublin/Ireland" proposal. The museum could be on the scale of the Guggenheim in Bilbao, a bold architectural statement backed up with a quality collection inside the building.

Every tourist on the planet wants to learn about Ireland and this museum could be the killer attraction that would lure them in their millions.

Imagine a spectacular glass building that resembled a giant harp, towering high on the Dublin skyline, glistening in the sunshine. What a wonderful and uniting symbol it would be of how far Ireland has come. Of course that's just my idea; the city could hold an international competition to find the best design.

And what would be inside this amazing new musuem? Alll kinds of everything, as Dana would say. (I hope she's not running in the election!) And little things from the Tara M3 excavations could be proudly displayed in the "Ireland's 21st century infrastucture" section.

Slice

Cork doesn't have any transatlantic flights so that speaks for itself really.

The tax breaks you talk about pay for themselves (and my point is they do more than just pay for themselves) in terms of higher exchequer revenue in other areas of economic activity so it was never a decision to give away free money as you seem to be implying. The decision to locate foreign direct investment in the regions by multinationals is not the same decision as the one to maintain a presence in those regions, the stop-over may have played more of a factor in the first without being as significant in the second given how things have changed. To say that the stop-over should never have been introduced in the first place begs the question what would the Government of the day do to address the shortfall in jobs for those areas? More importantly, how would any difficulty said Government have in addressing this shortfall contribute to increased migration of labour (and consequently resources on capital expenditure) to Dublin, or worse still, migration to other countries thus compromising capital expenditure because of the impact that would have on government revenue? A poorer and more sparsely populated West would be more of a burden on the country than a West that enjoys comparative levels of prosperity to the national average.

bill_ashmount

Schuhart wrote:

I think there's an extra element, highlighted by your comment I am an Irishman first, a Dubliner second. I'd share that outlook and I think most Dubliners do - possibly reflecting how many of us have close family links to other parts of the country, making a parochial outlook just plain silly. But go to county X and I think the allegience works the other way around. For the sake of argument, Kerry doesn't essentially give a damn about Cork or Ireland in general until its own interest is looked after. Take Clare and the Shannon Stopover - did they care about the damage they did to the national economy to keep somebody's cousin on a packed payroll.

:rolleyes: What a load of bullsh*t.
The dubs are looking out for the country first and then themselves second, while the rest of the country are only looking out for themselves????
Are you for real? Get off your high horse.

Schuhart

Slice wrote:

Cork doesn't have any transatlantic flights so that speaks for itself really.

Hardly, if the proposition up to this was a requirement to land in Shannon first.

Slice wrote:

The tax breaks you talk about pay for themselves

I’m not sure you’re following the points here. I’m not querying the tax breaks, which are a proven and quick way of giving an incentive to business. That’s unrelated to the stopover. I think you’ve got into a mindset that the Mid West region is being attacked and you must therefore refute every single statement being made by the person you see as an assailant.

Slice wrote:

A poorer and more sparsely populated West would be more of a burden on the country than a West that enjoys comparative levels of prosperity to the national average.

You’re assuming, without any apparent logic, that such prosperity as we can both acknowledge exists in the West is caused by the stopover and not by the general consistent favouring of the West in public expenditure. As I said a few posts ago

There’s a mindset that seems to assume that anything that’s bad for Dublin is good for the regions, so any wound inflicted on the city must be supported on grounds that surely this reduces the ‘disparity’ between Dublin and the regions as if there wasn’t a ‘disparity’ between Ireland and the rest of the world that provides more pressing grounds for worry.

You seem to be saying ‘the stopover was bad for Dublin, so it must be good for the West’. I rest my case.

Schuhart

bill_ashmount wrote:

:rolleyes: What a load of bullsh*t.
The dubs are looking out for the country first and then themselves second, while the rest of the country are only looking out for themselves????
Are you for real? Get off your high horse.

Substantiate your point.

bill_ashmount

Schuhart wrote:

Substantiate your point.

My point is that your post is a load of bullsh*t. You said the Dubs look after the national interest first and themselves second, while the rest of the country only looks out for themselves. Typical arrogant viewpoint. You then give a ridiculous example of Kerry and Cork. There is massive co-operation between Kerry and Cork in many areas, most notably in tourism with one of the most effective marketing campaigns ever run bringing massive results for the whole region. Education and Helath exchange is also huge between the two counties.

Forgive me for not falling at your feet and thanking you and the rest of Dublin for putting your country first while the rest of us only look out for ourselves.

Schuhart

bill_ashmount wrote:

My point is that your post is a load of bullsh*t. You said the Dubs look after the national interest first and themselves second, while the rest of the country only looks out for themselves. Typical arrogant viewpoint.

If you were a little calmer you might be more coherent.

What I've said is Dublin does not mobilise on allegience to locality to anything like the same extent as other regions. That's pretty obviously a feature of Irish life and relevant examples have been given. I'm not sure that responding by pointing out that Cork and Kerry are in the same administrative regions set down in the tourism and health sectors really refutes that, as that's hardly an example of spontaneous local co-operation.

If you can show an example of Dublin mobilising in defence of some local interest that retained some local pork - something like the Shannon stopover - that might make the point you obviously so badly want to make.

Slice

No I take issue with your point that "Dublin has been at the receiving end of some fairly ****ty sticks, such as the Shannon stopover" when you say Dublin's been "vandalised by the rest of the country". You're using the stop-over as your only example but I still think this is a dubious example for what is a dubious point. All I'm saying is yes the stop-over sucks but to what end? Is there anything more than anecdotal evidence of this and how do you fully measure a negative? And yes the subsidies of regional airports seem ridiculous as I've said many times before but from where I am Dublin appears to have been the greatest beneficiary of capital investment (though poorly directed). Bad planning is across the board so it's not like there's an east/west divide going on here as you're trying to make out. You only need to look at the Dublin Port Tunnel built for a port which we're now thinking of re-locating to see an example of how Dublin is being vandalised not by the country as you put it but simply because of bad planning and bad planning alone. If you want other examples then how does three radial motorways to the north of the city with only ten miles of countryside separating them sound in terms of money wasted? Or corrupt zoning decisions that's resulted in half the city being spread beyond the M50 towards Kildare in the form of uniform semi-D housing? Planning mistakes in Dublin seems to cost allot more than similar mistakes in the west such as 'a road here and regional airstrip there'.

Calina

Schuhart wrote:

What I've said is Dublin does not mobilise on allegience to locality to anything like the same extent as other regions. That's pretty obviously a feature of Irish life and relevant examples have been given. I'm not sure that responding by pointing out that Cork and Kerry are in the same administrative regions set down in the tourism and health sectors really refutes that, as that's hardly an example of spontaneous local co-operation.

If you can show an example of Dublin mobilising in defence of some local interest that retained some local pork - something like the Shannon stopover - that might make the point you obviously so badly want to make.

This is the key point however- and it should not be used to beat the regions up with. Dublin is not sorting out its own problems, but there is a perception out there, that Dublin resents the regions lobbying to sort out their issues and transport policy is maybe a good example of this.

Comments about the Shannon stopover are an excellent example. The other thing I would also add is that there seems to be this perception that what is good for Dublin is good for the rest of the country. This is not necessarily true, tbh. We have a very top heavy population structure here with almost one third of the population squeezed into the GDA due to a policy, which despite all, has still seen most of the high quality job creation in that area despite severe infrastructural issues. I'd venture to suggest that this is extremely detrimental to the country as a whole and to Dublin in particular.

On the other hand I'd also add that Dublin's annual sudden rediscovery of GAA is less edifying than the constant support which most other county teams manage to hold on to their support even when the chips are down.

______________

Meanwhile, back on topic, I'd venture to suggest that no would be government block can hope to get into power without a good chunk of Dublin. If you think Labour and the Green Party are flunking out here, you have options to fight back OP - you're vocal enough here. What about emailing your local candidates and making your views known to them?

Schuhart

Slice wrote:

All I'm saying is yes the stop-over sucks but to what end? Is there anything more than anecdotal evidence of this and how do you fully measure a negative?

There is more than anecdotal evidence of Dublin’s runway being kept too short, of Manchester picking up business as a result, of airlines deciding not to fly into Ireland until the stopover is gone and of American visitors deciding to fly through London. Do we really need to have this discussion? Why the need to pretend its impact was other than what it was?

Slice wrote:

And yes the subsidies of regional airports seem ridiculous as I've said many times before but from where I am Dublin appears to have been the greatest beneficiary of capital investment (though poorly directed).

Capital investment in the capital has been a very recent phenomenon. You’ll know the ritual. How many equivalent cities are so lacking in public transport? On the other hand, how many towns outside Ireland the size of Charlestown have their own airport?

Slice wrote:

Planning mistakes in Dublin seems to cost allot more than similar mistakes in the west such as 'a road here and regional airstrip there'.

I’m not sure this is really catching the political reality. Dublin’s problem is that its politically difficult to plan on the basis of the city growing, as Dublin growing is automatically seen as a bad thing. Hence, the unplanned growth of the city by default without services in place. You are comparing that with the allocation of the resources that might deal with that growth to places where they do no good.

An example of a cost of bad planning in Dublin is a couple of hundred houses landing in Kinnegad as if from outer space without any thought for how those people are going to get to work 30 miles away, find schools when they have families and yadda yadda yadda. I hope you’ll appreciate that’s a very different use of the word ‘cost’ to building an unneeded airport in Charlestown that can only rob Shannon of any hope of getting enough scale to be some kind of alternative to Dublin.

I think the central point – that county based advocacy makes for bad regional development policy, and that Dublin tends not to engage

Calina wrote:

there is a perception out there, that Dublin resents the regions lobbying to sort out their issues and transport policy is maybe a good example of this.

I’m not sure the WRC can be described as ‘sorting out their issues’. The project just makes no sense – I think that objective reality is lost sight of when you choose to see this only in terms of ‘well, sure its just Mayo getting its interest up the agenda’. I think you need to chew and taste the issue and not just swallow.

Calina wrote:

Comments about the Shannon stopover are an excellent example.

Defence of the Shannon stopover is, indeed, an excellent example of something that cannot be described as a region sorting out an issue.

Calina wrote:

The other thing I would also add is that there seems to be this perception that what is good for Dublin is good for the rest of the country. This is not necessarily true, tbh.

Its not necessarily true, but so true that it should hardly give us pause. Bear in mind the growth in population is not due to any planned policy to concentrate in Dublin. It’s the outcome of a failed regional development policy that left Dublin by default as the only location with sufficient scale to be attractive.

Calina wrote:

On the other hand I'd also add that Dublin's annual sudden rediscovery of GAA is less edifying than the constant support which most other county teams manage to hold on to their support even when the chips are down.

I’m sure if I had an interest in GAA or if being from Dublin was at the core of my self-definition, this comment would crush me. What does it actually mean?

Calina wrote:

If you think Labour and the Green Party are flunking out here, you have options to fight back OP - you're vocal enough here. What about emailing your local candidates and making your views known to them?

Very sensible suggestion. I've already banged on at our local Fine Gaeler over the absence of any reference to the Interconnector in their manifesto - which by contrast commits a specific deadline for the WRC.

Victor

I'm tempted to move this to Infrastructure.

Schuhart

The only way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it