Heli engine help wanted

T-Maxx

3DX has inspired me to break out the heli again! It's been a few years now, first a crash and then came the kids...

Anyways. She start up fine, idles good, but as soon as I give it throttle - she dies. I've reset the high speed needle to factory specs (Super Tigre .34H), but still the same thing. It doesn't seem like a too lean fuel starvation, but rather like it's overly rich, so I've leaned her out some, throttled up really slow, double checked linkages and set-ups, replaced glow plug, still the same thing happens. It's kind of like the high speed needle opens all of sudden and floods the motor.

Any help would be appreciated! *winks at Coolwings*:)

syl77

Have you replaced all the fuel lines? Is the needle moving with the vibrations?
Also if using a header tank, take it out of the equation.

trudnai

Last time I had problem like that it turned out that the idle needle had a terrible settings. Because of that I've opened the needle too much to get the idle stable but it was too rich. The matter of fact I could not set the idle needle correctly until I put more nitro into the fuel - but hopefully you don't have the same problem.

coolwings

T-Maxx wrote:

Anyways. She start up fine, idles good, but as soon as I give it throttle - she dies. ...

Assuming it is presently idling ok ......

- if it revs up "lumpy" then one or both needles are too rich.

- if the idle is too lean, it will rev up snappy, then at transition (or slightly before that ) say 20 - 25% throttle it will die from running out of fuel

- if the main jet is too lean, the die off point will be over 30% throttle, maybe 50-75%, not down at 1/4 throttle.

- if the idle is correct or slightly lean, and the main is too rich ... it will idle ok, rev up snappy, then "thin out" at 30% throttle. But by 35% throttle it will begin to get lumpy, demanding a slow revving upwards from there, or a choke-up and cutout would result.

The throttle level (it dies at) at is how you know which area to "work on" ....
The way it dies tells you ... too rich or too lean.

T-Maxx wrote:

I've reset the high speed needle to factory specs (Super Tigre .34H), but still the same thing.

I would guess you have returned your engine to factory setting, but that you haven't returned your "power system" to factory setting.

For example ... if there is congealed thickened fuel lodged in the fuel lines, (narrowing their inner opening diameter) or some thickened fuel lodged inside the fuel intake nipple on the carb case (doing the same at the place where it turns at right angles to go down under the main adjustment needle.
Say this is the case. Then you set your needle at factory. But the tubes are partly blocked, so to get the effect of "factory setting" you would have to set the needles at richer than factory setting to compensate for the semi blockage.
To get a complete cure, clean out the carb with acetone, methanol, and compressed air, and replace the silicone tubing. Then operate at factory settting.

There is another possibility... not so likely as the one above :
Super Tigre engines often prefer to go fast, and show a certain reluctance to run smooth (at idle). It is a feature of that make. There are limits to how much fine tuning you can do at low end on a budget engine. It could be that your personal tuning knowledge has increased since you used it, and "you" have "passed out" your engine's technical specification, speaking in ability to fine tune I mean.
In this event you got started with the ST, but you outgrew it and now you want an OS heli engine to move forwards with. If this is the case higher nitro in the fuel will jolly it along for a year or so by increasing the torque at idle, and widening the tuning power band. So get the same fuel-oil blend, but ask for 5 - 10% higher nitro content in it. Your problem will diminish.

Hope this helps.

The Doktor

Every time I take my heli out after its been lying up for a while, I find all sorts of problems. Always seem to be casued by crap in the fuel lines/carb.
As coolwings says, clean the carb... and replace all yer lines etc.
Then take it from there with the needle settings.

T-Maxx

Thanks for the advice all.

During the re-build i've cleaned the carb and reset all needles to factory specs, also cleaned out the tank, filter and fuel lines. I think that the problem could be a too lean idle setting. I'll richen it up some and have another go at it tonight hopefully.

syl77

Good luck with it.
What type of heli is it?

T-Maxx

It's a Hirobo Shuttle Plus that I've had now for 5 years.

T-Maxx

Hirobo Shuttle Plus with Super Tigre .34H engine FOR SALE.

Engine runs perfectly, just tune for your location. Unwanted gift for last Xmas (hence less than 5 months old), never crashed. Fresh fuel included with sale.

Serious offers only.

Thanks

PS: The way I feel right now I might even give her away free-of-charge to a good home...

g5hn710m4xpdwy

Hi.
I am a good home:D

What price are you looking for? and does it include radio?

syl77

Pull out the engine and put in an OS 37.....

T-Maxx

Right, I've now had it with this thing. :mad: I'm at the point where I'm prepared to pay someone to get it up and running.:(

The Doktor

Whats the problem with it now??:D

coolwings

T-Maxx wrote:

Right, I've now had it with this thing. :mad: I'm at the point where I'm prepared to pay someone to get it up and running.:(

I was assuming right through the thread the supplier had set it up originally ... have you asked? Has it not done a fly/hover yet?

In Green Hobby I would think every single heli we ever sold - we did the settings for the customer after they made it and when they were ready to begin flying it. I would think there has been zero exceptions to that over all the years I am aware of. It goes with the selling, and is necessary if the customer is to succeed at the heli flying hobby.

So if you are on your first heli - you not getting a nitro heli set up right all by yourself is normal, and to be expected.
Lecci helis are easier to set up correctly, but still complex. It is the nitro ones are so difficult as to be impossible for beginners. A smaller 30 size is more difficult, not less difficult, than the bigger sizes of nitro engines.

So you see the onus falls on the seller to provide help, if the beginner is to have a successful experience with his new nitro heli.

If you bought it from a shop, go there and ask. I know it's not Green Hobby because we stopped doing the Shuttle approx 5 years ago. But if it is an Irish outfit, you paid for the backup when you bought the heli.

If you got it online at a cheap price, you underestimated the value of backup included in local hobby shop retail prices, overestimated your ability, and underestimated the complexity of making, setup, start, tune and learn to fly nitro helis. Bad decision. But the cash saving (cheapest price) = the cost of putting it right, is still unspent in your back pocket. So as you said in you last post - you pay someone to get it right for you.

In this event you have no link (and do have make/parts incompatibility) with a nearby shop - forget telephone, email or long distance help, it's useless. You have to see with your own eyes what the guy does when he adjusts it. You need to see it fly in the guy's hands so you have confidence that when it doesn't fly for you that this is your flying inexpertise and the heli is actually fine. Then you can persist learning on it with confidence.

I suppose there is always a club .... but they won't be exactly delighted if they are expected to do it all, they just expect to tweak a few things which are almost right, and then get you going. Some clubs are more helpful than others. Would you happen to be at that stage at this point and just need the final help to get it going?

Consider giving Patrick (shop manager at Green hobby, Dublin) a call at 01 4928776 ... Patrick is a model heli flier himself ... and discuss what seems to be the best way to move forward from the "expensive ornament" situation you find yourself in now? Any suggestion he makes is good advice .

T-Maxx

I've bought it from a respected heli modeller who set it up and test flew it. The engine was always giving problems and he also battled to get/keep it running - just like me now. He went through 4 glow plugs and eventually had to send it back to his supplier who fixed/replaced it. (So I've been told.) At that stage I didn't know diddly-squad about rc's or nitro engines, so I happily handed over the dosh - too keen to get my hands on the model and start flying it.

I continued to battle with the engine, but managed to make it to 1st base (ie hovering), but that's it. Got over confident/ambitious and crashed it, fixed it and put it away on the attic.

I don't want to take it back to the supplier - he charged me €70 the first time to tinkle with it, set it up, tune it and test fly it.

The Doktor

T-Maxx wrote:

I don't want to take it back to the supplier - he charged me €70 the first time to tinkle with it, set it up, tune it and test fly it.

Thats why I buy of the internet. The first time I bought a heli, I spent nearly 2grand on stuff... I bought the heli, radio gear, spare blades, gear box.. starter etc etc etc...
He told me to bring it back when it was built. He spent 40 mins adjusting a few things, test flew it and charged me £100 for the service that as far as im concerned should have been free, specially since he spent most of the 40 mins dealing with other customers.....
And now that I know a bit more, I know now that he really did a half arsed set up, that was fine for him to fly.. he could manage since he was such an expert flyer... but it wasnt good for a learner..

And that was 2 grand in old money.. not euros...

T-Maxx

Are we talking about the same guy here? (Send me a PM)

coolwings

I wonder did you actually get the new engine , seeing as the problem now apppears to be the same problem you had before it was "replaced" ... because based on what you have said my natural response would be to say - get a new engine!
Best alternative - raise the nitro by 5% for the present.

The Doktor

Seems we both bought off the same person, who shall remain nameless!!!
So this is why I have an aversion to Irish model shops! I have not had a good experience with them yet, and each one came highly recommended by other modelers!
Though Green hobby does sound good from what I hear... and Coolwings is involved.. so it must be good:D (and no.. im not bein a smart arse!!)

T-Maxx

I've replaced the fuel tube from the tank to the carb, the o-ring between the carb and the crankcase, new glowplug, new fuel (MT Go-Glo 16%), re-tuned. She ran slightly better, but not consistent enough to take out to the flying field.

New engine, yeah, that's what I've been thinking all along. I'm just trying to convince myself to part with €150.

syl77

part with the money.... and get an OS 37. it will save money in the long run. You dont want your old engine to quit in the air, espesically if you can't auto.
Check out http://fast-lad.co.uk/ , they have got good prices and they come over to Ireland quit a bit to fly in's so if you have any problems they can look at it. OS or YS is the best options for helis, I never have had a problem with OS engines (touch wood), . Sorry we cant be of any more help, its sounds like you have tired everthing though. Have you posted your problem up in runryder?

T-Maxx

I think I might have found the problem.

The main needle's point is slightly bent - I've straightened it as well as I could but it's still not 100% true. I think the only way of solving this would be to Dremel it to a new taper, or alternatively to get a replacement carb. (No luck with eBay so far!)

syl77

Call the guys at http://www.justengines.unseen.org/ , they helped me before with replacing a carb which I broke in one of my OS plane engines.

T-Maxx

Cheers, sent them e-mail.

T-Maxx

Quote from Justengines:

"...we do not tend to do replacement carbs for heli engines because the
carburation is so important."

I'm binning the ST now and leaning towards the OS.37.

Syl77:
What pipe would you recommend for it? I've researched RR and it seems the Hatori 415 / MP2 / Toki 40 is the preferred, but they sell for $80, which is hard for me to justify. Will the standard Hirobo muffler work satisfactory?

syl77

Thats a pitty, I thought they would be able to help you out.
The Hatori pipe would yeild you the best power out of the OS 37, however if you are still in the early stages of learning you wont realy need. If you progress further the money will probably be better spent on 50 size heli.
Not sure what my 37 has on it, think its a thunder tiger muffler, does the job even for beginners 3D, bought the heli all built, selling it now again with radio (ready to fly), otherwise would sell you engine and muffler.
Dont know if Hirobo pipe will fit, if you get it and it doesn't, id say save your money and go with thunder tiger muffler.