CBT Compulsory Basic Training

pa990

Whats the story with Compulsory Basic Training, for bikes.. is it on or still being talked about..

if its in, where can i find info on it .. (i've tried google, but its all UK stuff)

gipi

I understand it's due to commence in July, along with the changes to provisional licences (becoming learner permits) for persons applying after that date - don't think it affects existing prov. licence holders, apart from those of us who want to get some training and haven't booked yet!

galwaytt

yes, it's coming in July, and it's going to cause problems..

For a start, a number of (very well qualified) instructors may no longer be able to continue, as the requirments are that the CBT be conducted on a site, without public access, of 25m x 37m, and washroom/changing (and I presume class room) facilities must be available.

I was told this by a well-known instructor currently evaluation whether it's viable to stay in the business.

And, of course, who has access to places like this ? Gone are the days when you could use Dunnes' Stores' car park on a Sunday............there'll also be the headache of public and employer liability for the premises. It's all going to get, very, very...........expensive. I expect getting your licence will then cost, as per mainland europe, up to, and possibly over, Eur1000 all-in.

I bet you haven't heard any of the usual bike importers getting involved, or doing something constructive about it.........it is their bread & butter, after all........... with the exception of one (possibly), I'd be shocked if any of the mainstream ones do anything.............

For all of the above reasons, if you haven't done so already, get your Theory test done now, and get your provisional before July. Don't say you weren't told !!

btw, my sister-in-law is doing her DTT on 23rd June.........here's hopin' !!


p.s. naturally, you can stroll in and get a car licence without any complications.........one rule for them etc etc etc......

pa990

i was just curious..

i never drove a bike in my life.. but wanted to get one, and having read about CBT and the 3rd European Directive on Driving Licences, i decieded that now was the time to get a licence

so i got 8hrs of lessons and did my test... (passed (clean sheet.. not one tick))


i also did C licence and D this year

only EC to do now

faceman

galwaytt wrote:

yes, it's coming in July, and it's going to cause problems..

For a start......

i heard july too but where did u hear that other info?

Hotblack Desiato

It was in my sig for weeks :rolleyes:
here it is
The so-called "Consultation" we've-already-made-up-our-minds process ended at the end of April
MAG Ireland made 2 submissions
Actually I meant to post my one on here, I will if anyone's interested.

galwaytt

lash away, nothing on telly.........could do with a read.........

Hotblack Desiato

You asked for it...

My name is Eoin Kirwan and I'm the chairman of MAG Ireland, the voluntary body representing the interests of Irish motorcyclists.

Marc O'Loideoin of MAG Ireland and a highly qualified and experienced motorcycle instructor has made a submission focusing on the details of implementation of the proposed Compulsory Basic Training scheme. I propose to highlight the concerns of MAG Ireland in relation to the CBT proposal as a whole and in particular its restriction to motorcyclists only.

First of all, there are the usual statistics trotted out to justify this scheme. It is true that motorcyclists are at more risk than car occupants in an accident, however fundamentally this will always be the case simply because motorcyclists are not surrounded by a large metal cage which protects its occupants even as it injures or kills those outside it. The very concept of making casualty rate comparisons between car occupants and motorcyclists is fundamentally flawed.

The sentence in Section 2 "Motorcycles represent less than 2% of licensed vehicles but motorcyclist's[sic] account for 12% of road deaths, which means that motorcyclists are 6 times more likely to be killed on Irish roads than any other road user" is revealing of the mindset of its author. For starters the 12% figure is incorrect, at least as far as 2006 is concerned. More importantly, the "2% of licensed vehicles" comment is completely misleading because it puts forward the ludicrous conceit that the numbers of drivers of vehicles of a particular type should have a bearing on casualties. This ignores the safety impact of not only car passengers, but also cyclists and pedestrians. It is a fact that pedestrians are at the most risk of all, and their proportion of road casualties in Ireland is rising significantly. It is also a fact that cyclists are at least, if not more, at risk per kilometre travelled than motorcyclists are. Pedestrian and cyclist safety are real issues which need addressing. Other countries are formulating strategies to improve the safety of "vulnerable road users" (cyclists, pedestrians and motorcyclists) as a group, rather than trying to impose restrictions on them because they are perceived to be at more risk than car occupants.

We do not dispute the OECD figures that in Ireland, motorcyclists are 2 -3 times more at risk of being killed than in other European countries. It would be instructive if the RSA, rather than trotting this out as a glib statistic would look into the reasons behind this. Poor rider training is undoubtedly one factor but others are certainly poor driver training and poor road design and maintenance. If you took a highly trained German motorcyclist and put him or her on Irish roads they would still be at higher risk, simply because they would then have to contend with Irish roads and, in particular, Irish drivers.

In recent years MAG Ireland obtained figures from both of the motorcycle insurers operating in Ireland at that time which stated, based on their claims data, that in over 75% of collisions between a motorcycle and another vehicle the motorcyclist was not even partially to blame for the accident. No doubt some of these collisions could be avoided by an overall improvement in rider training standards, but that still leaves a huge proportion of motorcycle accidents caused by car drivers which can only be addressed by an improvement in driving standards and compliance with the law on the part of car drivers. Yet there are no proposals for CBT for anyone other than motorcyclists. Motorcyclists are being in effect blamed for the failings of other road users and being penalised (to some extent in inconvenience and red tape, to a large extent financially) by a training scheme which will not prevent more than a small proportion of car-bike accidents.

It is interesting, to say the least, that Germany and the UK have been chosen as comparator countries to Ireland and details are given of their motorcycle CBT schemes. It would have been instructive to examine their training regimes for other classes of vehicle also. Germany requires extensive CBT for all motorists, while the UK (in addition to a driving test which is superficially similar, but in reality more stringent than our own) imposes and enforces a regime where unqualified drivers are simply not allowed on the road unsupervised. The driving environment that novice motorcyclists face in these countries is fundamentally different because all road users are either qualified or under supervision. By far the biggest contribution to motorcycle safety that the RSA could make would be to address the issue of untrained, untested and unsupervised drivers roaming the roads of Ireland at will.

In addition, both Germany and the UK have measures in their car driver training/testing systems designed to enhance the awareness of car drivers towards motorcycles - in Ireland this is totally lacking.

The regulation of Approved Driving Instructors is much overdue. However as the motorcycle training market in Ireland is quite small, the requirement of minimum annual hours of instruction risks forcing part-time trainers out of business, particularly in rural areas, reducing choice for novice riders and increasing costs. It is essential, too, for the same reasons that the recurring costs of instructor testing and registration are kept at as low a level as possible.

Finally, there is a fundamental problem with the CBT scheme as proposed, which MAG Ireland has been raising since day one of the CBT Working Group, and that is the lack of availability of off-road training areas. Securing suitable venues at an affordable cost will be difficult in many areas and insurance costs are likely to make many otherwise suitable venues unviable. This is a fundamental problem specific to motorcycle basic training and can realistically only be addressed by substantial Government funding.

The proposed scheme, as it stands, is fundamentally unjust in that it will impose severe financial penalties on a class of road users simply because they are frequently collided with by another class of road users. It does not address the fundamental fact that by far the largest cause of death and injury on Irish roads (to all classes of road user) is car drivers. It will make motorcycling unaffordable for many if not most novices when the cost of CBT, particularly along the German model, is added to the cost of insurance on the Irish model. It will result in more young people being unable to take up educational and employment opportunities because they cannot afford basic personal transport. It will increase the numbers of cars on the roads, worsening congestion and pollution. For a number of compelling reasons, Ireland simply must encourage greater use of alternatives to car commuting, and most other European countries recognise that motorcycles are an important part of this.


Regards

Eoin Kirwan
Chairman
MAG Ireland - The Irish Motorcyclists' Action Group Ltd.

faceman

ninja900 wrote:

It was in my sig for weeks :rolleyes:
here it is
The so-called "Consultation" we've-already-made-up-our-minds process ended at the end of April
MAG Ireland made 2 submissions
Actually I meant to post my one on here, I will if anyone's interested.

have u the other submission?

MrPudding

ninja900 wrote:

You asked for it...

Excellent work.

I presume they will simply ignore it.

MrP