a couple of ruling questions

boogey man

I think this really comes under bad etiquette but your opinions please

1/2 live cash game stacks range from 200-1200 euro 8 handed
I’m utg raise 15 2players call and BB goes all in for 430 euro
I call and BB then proceeds to turn over his cards he is stopped before they are seen he then tells the other players that he only has a pair
the player in question was drunk and being a bit of a pest and consistently taking ages to make simple decisions he had also moved all in pre flop several times previously my problem here is that the players to act can make there decision based on more information I had I was furious and mucked my cards (stupid I know cutting off nose to spite face stuff) the dealer gave my cards back and called manager.

Hand 2
200 live mtt

after flop 3 players I last to act player 1 raises 350 player 2 throws a 1000 chip into pot I presume a call and announce raise player 2 then claims that the 1000 was raise the dealer rightly insists it is only a call and my announcement of raise must stand.
My problem here is that if I was aware of player 2 intention to raise I would have folded as I was only reraising the call and my decision was completely based on this.
The fact that I was now aware player 2 intended to raise completely changed my decision and I was forced to raise.
Player 1 called and player 2 moved all in hence I folded and lost chips due to another player’s mistake.

I know this may come under bad etiquette but I think there should be some kind of ruling.

cooker3

boogey man wrote:

I think this really comes under bad etiquette but your opinions please

1/2 live cash game stacks range from 200-1200 euro 8 handed
I’m utg raise 15 2players call and BB goes all in for 430 euro
I call and BB then proceeds to turn over his cards he is stopped before they are seen he then tells the other players that he only has a pair
the player in question was drunk and being a bit of a pest and consistently taking ages to make simple decisions he had also moved all in pre flop several times previously my problem here is that the players to act can make there decision based on more information I had I was furious and mucked my cards (stupid I know cutting off nose to spite face stuff) the dealer gave my cards back and called manager.

.

You mucked, are you insane!
Are you often in the habit of giving away 430 euro for no reason as you have just done that.
As for ruling, just play it out, can't see what else to do. Calling his hand dead would be harsh, just give him severe warning.

Hand 2, hmmn I think I would allow you to just call giving his mistake

5starpool

Hand 1, your cards should have been killed and pot awarded to BB. He should be warned to let action complete before he reveals his hand, and if he persists he will be removed from the game. You should reevaluate whether you should be playing poker if you are liable to muck, pre flop after calling a 430 bet. You getting your cards given back to you by the dealer is wrong on his part.

Second hand, ruling is that he called and that you must raise. If you don't like it then minraise and lose the minimum. I presume you were trying a squeeze of some sort, but without knowing stack sizes I can't really say what you should do afterwards from a strategy point of view.

Mellor

Hand one, your acted like an idiot, there was no reason to do that, at all. Do were lucky, (and it was wrong) to get your cards back.

Hand two, it was your fault again, if the player who threw in the 1000 chip had smaller chips behind then you should of asked before you made a move. even if he says at that stage it was a raise, its only a call, and you are at an advantage.

insafehands

Hand one is -EV.

Bandana boy

boogey man wrote:

I think this really comes under bad etiquette but your opinions please

1/2 live cash game stacks range from 200-1200 euro 8 handed
I’m utg raise 15 2players call and BB goes all in for 430 euro
I call and BB then proceeds to turn over his cards he is stopped before they are seen he then tells the other players that he only has a pair
the player in question was drunk and being a bit of a pest and consistently taking ages to make simple decisions he had also moved all in pre flop several times previously my problem here is that the players to act can make there decision based on more information I had I was furious and mucked my cards (stupid I know cutting off nose to spite face stuff) the dealer gave my cards back and called manager.

Hand 2
200 live mtt

after flop 3 players I last to act player 1 raises 350 player 2 throws a 1000 chip into pot I presume a call and announce raise player 2 then claims that the 1000 was raise the dealer rightly insists it is only a call and my announcement of raise must stand.
My problem here is that if I was aware of player 2 intention to raise I would have folded as I was only reraising the call and my decision was completely based on this.
The fact that I was now aware player 2 intended to raise completely changed my decision and I was forced to raise.
Player 1 called and player 2 moved all in hence I folded and lost chips due to another player’s mistake.

I know this may come under bad etiquette but I think there should be some kind of ruling.

neither of these make any sense

NickyOD

Bandana boy wrote:

neither of these make any sense

lol! was thinking the same thing. Where the hell was this game?

5starpool

Bandana boy wrote:

neither of these make any sense

I had to read it about 5 times before I figured it out.

NickyOD

5starpool wrote:

I had to read it about 5 times before I figured it out.

Can you translate please?

boogey man

i totally agree idiot move to muck cards and i was lucky. i only embarrassingly put that part in so you could understand how annoying and unmannerly this person was. If you were there it may be a bit clearer when i asked him to stop commenting he laughed and was abusive back i said his hand would have been dead if he had not been stopped from turning them over he continued to be abusive and comment on his hand it was at this point i threw my hand in(to avoid an assault charge) called him a fcuking idiot and walked out my hand never hit the muck as one of the players stopped it i was called back by the other players and the manager was called. I must say a strong dealer would have diffused the situation immediately and not let it get as out of hand. hindsight says i should have just left the table earlier as i was getting more and more angry with this person as the night went on.

The point i am trying to get across here is that there are 2 situations where speech play collusion and bad etiquette are not easily definable and combined with inexperienced weak dealers it is only disaster. whereas i have no reason or suspicion to think collusion was the motivation behind these it could easy have been do not get me wrong to completely ban speech play would be ridiculous we all enjoy banter but there should be some guide lines.

i think in cash games there should be some std that dealers have to adhere to as large sums of money can be very easily lost due to bad rulings / judgments and a lot of these are and should be situation Dependant.
and i think a strong dealer and card room manager is a necessity and they should make these decisions based on the situation and fairly for the benefit of all involved.

ollyk1

Is Boogey Man = BBJ?

Hand 1

You are playing with a drunk. Sh1t happens. Concentrate hard on hitting your outs.

Hand 2

How can you call this bad etiquette? The guy made a mistake. The dealer ruled correctly. Would you feel any better if he just flat called and then pushed following your raise? Next time don't be so quick to announce raise and clarify the bet if in doubt.

Bandana boy

5starpool wrote:

I had to read it about 5 times before I figured it out.

could you enlighten me ?

in Hand 1 he has called 430 all inpre flop againsty a player and now wants to muck his hand before seeing the flop becuase two players left to act MIGHT call the 430 with better info than he had !!!!!!!!!!!

In Hand 2
Is confusing in that it looks like there wsa a ruling that didnt allow our friend to go back in time and change a poor decision and he wasnts to know if that is fair ?

5starpool

NickyOD wrote:

Can you translate please?

Hand 1.

1/2 cash game.
Hero raises UTG to 15. Couple of callers. BB goes all in for 430. Hero calls. Before anyone else has a chance to act BB tries to show his cards as he is drunk. Hero stops him in time. Villian then says 'I only have a pair'.

At this point, hero is enraged and mucks his cards, despite having called. The dealer gives the cards back to hero.

/end of information.

Hand 2.

Tournie, 200 buy in. A flop has been dealt with a mystery amount in the pot at this point. Villian A bets 350. Villian B throws in a 1k chip, but says nothing. Hero goes to raise and presumably puts in less than 2k, at which point Villian B says 'Hold on, I raised to 1000'. The dealer then says 'No you didn't, it is only a call as you didn't say anything'. Hero is dismayed at this point as he was only making a squeeze with air presumably, and if he had known that villian B was raising, he would not have made the squeeze.

/ end of information.

kakak1

boogey man wrote:

I think this really comes under bad etiquette but your opinions please

1/2 live cash game stacks range from 200-1200 euro 8 handed
I’m utg raise 15 2players call and BB goes all in for 430 euro
I call and BB then proceeds to turn over his cards he is stopped before they are seen he then tells the other players that he only has a pair
the player in question was drunk and being a bit of a pest and consistently taking ages to make simple decisions he had also moved all in pre flop several times previously my problem here is that the players to act can make there decision based on more information I had I was furious and mucked my cards (stupid I know cutting off nose to spite face stuff) the dealer gave my cards back and called manager.

Back to an old hobby horse of mine. Players should not be allowed play when drunk, end of story, stops all this ****e.

boogey man

hand 2 i have no problem with dealer or decision it is more to enlighten the point of how speech play can be used to cheat in this case it was a genuine mistake

Mellor

boogey man wrote:

.

i think in cash games there should be some std that dealers have to adhere to as large sums of money can be very easily lost due to bad rulings

Sexually transmitted diseases are rarely the solution.

As for hand one, what was the hand that you mucked? For some reason I have a feeling it was in the 22-44 range

kakak1 wrote:

Back to an old hobby horse of mine. Players should not be allowed play when drunk, end of story, stops all this ****e.

I honestly think this is a rather silly statement. Sure they are disruptive, and annoying, but they provide most of the value in the games,
if they were banned it would belong before statements like "people should be allowed to play drunk or not, its their choice" popped, most likely as a result of all the games getting alot harder to beat.

bops

i am a poker buddy of the OP - he is a very good player and is also very literate!!

firstly, on a sidenote, i'd like to say that i believe that the condesending responses to a new member of this forum are a f*cking disgrace - i really mean that - with special reference to the mod in the mix who should know better - the lot of you really can be a shower of clicky cnuts imo - rant rant etc etc wa*kers!!

Anyway back to the important stuff:

Hand 1: You should know better when dealing with a locked muppet - simple as that - i also expect your hand not to be mucked as per say, but more of a slam on the table in disgust kinna thing right??

Hand 2: Boring answer but always be sure if the 1 chip in the pot is an intentional call or raise - it's hard to believe the amount of people who still don't understand that basic rule - as played min raise and get the fk out


UP WEXFORD POKER - Bringing standards to a new level!!


ps did you win the hand?
pps was this before/after I cracked your Aces??

kakak1

Mellor wrote:

I honestly think this is a rather silly statement. Sure they are disruptive, and annoying, but they provide most of the value in the games,
if they were banned it would belong before statements like "people should be allowed to play drunk or not, its their choice" popped, most likely as a result of all the games getting alot harder to beat.

Well if you are only capable of winning money from a drunk maybe you should consider taking up a different pastime.
Supposedly called "poker players" can say what you like but it is morally / ethically wrong to allow or to play against someone who is not capable of making decisions because they are drunk.
How can you say it is their choice, they are not capable of making rational decisions. Sure they made the decision to get drunk, that doesn't give us the right to take advantage of a fellow human being.

Bandana boy

Apolgies if my post offended anybody
i didnt look at how many post op had i just said what i thought

sikes

kakak1 wrote:

Well if you are only capable of winning money from a drunk maybe you should consider taking up a different pastime.
Supposedly called "poker players" can say what you like but it is morally / ethically wrong to allow or to play against someone who is not capable of making decisions because they are drunk.
How can you say it is their choice, they are not capable of making rational decisions. Sure they made the decision to get drunk, that doesn't give us the right to take advantage of a fellow human being.

I agree 100%, and this is the main reason I dont play live cash anymore. In fact I think I have only played live cash about 5 times.

Mellor

kakak1 wrote:

Well if you are only capable of winning money from a drunk maybe you should consider taking up a different pastime.
Supposedly called "poker players" can say what you like but it is morally / ethically wrong to allow or to play against someone who is not capable of making decisions because they are drunk.
How can you say it is their choice, they are not capable of making rational decisions. Sure they made the decision to get drunk, that doesn't give us the right to take advantage of a fellow human being.

Can you please point out where I said that I, or anyone, can only win money from a drunk? I agree that it is wrong to play with a player who is totally wasted and is has people queuing up to call-in all-in. But most players with drink on them do not fall into this group,
Also where did I say it was their choice, please read replys before you quote them. I said that if drinking was banned at or before poker tables then that is the attitude that would emerge.
For the record, I don't play cash live, only tourneys atm, so the drunk player situation isn't really an issue.
I wasn't commenting on weither or not they should play, more on the fact that if the minority that felt they shouldn't be allowed go their way, it wouldn't take long before the rest of the players start complaining to the contrary.

boogey man

bops wrote:

i am a poker buddy of the OP - he is a very good player and is also very literate!!

firstly, on a sidenote, i'd like to say that i believe that the condesending responses to a new member of this forum are a f*cking disgrace - i really mean that - with special reference to the mod in the mix who should know better - the lot of you really can be a shower of clicky cnuts imo - rant rant etc etc wa*kers!!


thanks bops
Always nice to welcomed by all
sorry if i did not conform to the boards recognised abbreviated lingo(pm me for free dictionary and spell checker)
I thought it was a good point for discussion.

5starpool

This isn't a question of newbie bashig, it is a question of the OP being in very unclear language and people being confused, and also amazed by the action of OP in hand 1.

Solksjaer

Hey bobs, speaking as someone who has/will NEVER be part of a clique (click) in my life. I have to say the OP is a tad difficult to follow. Full stops... and commas,,,,, do help. The actual play itself is subject to the normal mauling that you'd expect on a poker forum. I think Mellor got more grief anyway and he isn't a newbie.

nicnicnic

If the OP would take those fcuken headphone's off we might be able to understand him better.:)


Hand 1, looks very annoying to me and while some might consider your action to be extreme I can totally understand how such a reaction can occur in the heat of the moment.


PS "don't bring your emotions to the table"


Hand 2, looks like the dealer made the right decision doesn't look like the 1k chip guy is angling but there is an opportunity to do so here. I.E throwing one big chip into a pot knowing it will be considered a call then pretending you wanted to raise and as such representing a bigger hand. A lot of the time this will allow you to see the next card free.



As for the OPs post structure I can think of a couple of regulars whose structure of posts are much worse and don't get stick for it

kakak1

Mellor wrote:

but they provide most of the value in the games,

What do you mean by this then

I'd read it as a soft touch

Lazare

Howya Boogey man, welcome to boards.



.....................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Your comma and full stop keys are obviously broke, here's a few to keep ye goin for a while. Copy n paste as required. If ye need more send me a PM.

Mellor

kakak1 wrote:

What do you mean by this then

I'd read it as a soft touch

I would imagine that drunk players lose more than sober players. This isn't related to where I feel the value should come from, its a statement of the reality of the game, they lose money more often, and which is why If they were banned the games games would be harder, and i imagine they would be welcomed back by alot of players, the ones that don't mind playing against them now.
If players with morals got their way and they were banned,
the players who couldn't care would be calling for their return immediatly.

As I said, I dont play cash live so it rarely affects me. I was never commenting on weither or not they should or shouldn't be allowed play, but on the fact that its currently a pointless idea, as players who have no problem playing with them far outweigh the players who think its unfair, and if those few voices managed to get them banned for their own good, the rest of the players would kick up a bigger fuss.

bohsman

kakak1 wrote:

Back to an old hobby horse of mine. Players should not be allowed play when drunk, end of story, stops all this ****e.

My general rule on this is - they walk in the door, I tell them theres a seat in the cash game, if they can make out where the cash game is and possibly have to pull up a chair themselves I let them play, if they stand there looking confused I let them stand there, pointing them towards a cup of coffee if theyre still standing there a few minutes later.

kakak1

bohsman wrote:

My general rule on this is - they walk in the door, I tell them theres a seat in the cash game, if they can make out where the cash game is and possibly have to pull up a chair themselves I let them play, if they stand there looking confused I let them stand there, pointing them towards a cup of coffee if theyre still standing there a few minutes later.

That's not a rule, it's actually a load of s h i t e

If you even gave some thought to the problem you wouldn't have come up with something as stupid as that.

Might help solve the problem in a club which has several games going, all though I imagine no matter how drunk they are they will find it soon enough.

What about an establishment that ONLY has a cash table going.

boogey man

Lazare wrote:

Howya Boogey man, welcome to boards.



.....................................................................................................
.....................................................................................................
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Your comma and full stop keys are obviously broke, here's a few to keep ye goin for a while. Copy n paste as required. If ye need more send me a PM.

LOL, appreciate that.
ty.