How do you disguise your draws?

Primewise

I would like some thoughts on a situation that comes up all the time in poker, and is especially obvious to your opponent in Live Play.

Situation:
Full Ring Cash game
You are on the button heads up against the Pre-Flop Raiser, who makes a continuation bet
You read him for either top pair top kicker, or an overpair.
You have 4 cards to a flush
You are both deep stacked

The following considerations will usually run through my head:

1) if I hit my hand, how likely am I to get paid off;
2) how likely am I to succeed with an immediate semi-bluff raise?;
3) against this specific opponent, if I am called, should I fire a second barrel on the turn, or take a free card; and
4) if I simply call and miss, what is my action?

However in order to run through these questions on the spot when faced with a decision, I would usually need about 10 seconds to decide the best course of action. The trouble is, in Live play it can be dead obvious when somebody spends 10 seconds thinking in this situation, that they are on a draw. This can lead to a clever opponent either sticking a large bet on the turn if you miss, or else successfully folding if the Flush card hits.

The question is: -
Have you any useful tactics (bets/fake tells) for disguising your draw, while at the same time take your time to analyse the options?

Sometimes I will insta-raise … which is usually the best disguise, however it is also the expensive option if you are facing an aggressive opponent or a calling station. Taking 10 seconds to think could save you money, but also alert your opponent that you are on a draw.

Another good one is the suspicious min-raise (which smells like a set)

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Gholimoli

If you only take 10 seconds or any time to think when you have a draw then yeah after a while it will be obvious that you only think on your draws, but are you saying that all your other actions are instantaneous and you don’t think on any other hand unless you have draw?
The solution seems very easy to me…
Move up levels.

5starpool

I think the only real answer is 'it depends'. Each situation differs to be honest. I think the key is mixing up your play so that if you raise/call your opponent isn't likely to know what hand you have.

Mellor

Vary your play

rag2gar

If your drawing to the nut flush I like raising in this spot more often than not. You will often be able to get a free card on the turn considering your in position

rag2gar

Haha just as I finished writing this I got almost exactly the same siuation online as described. I didnt take 10 secs as I had just thought through such a spot!

ditpoker

i like the below alot... (check raising on a draw)

Pro Tip: 75
Check-Raising on Draws
Steve Brecher
August 28, 2006


In No-Limit Hold 'em, drawing hands can be very difficult to play out of position. Most beginners take a straightforward approach when they flop something like a straight or a flush draw; they check, then call a bet and hope the turn brings something helpful. But, simply check-calling can present difficulties later in a hand. If you miss on the turn, you'll probably have to check and, oftentimes, end up facing a turn bet that is too large to call. Any bet of normal size in relation to the pot will be too large because the odds against hitting your hand are typically more than 4-to-1.

The problems don't end there. What happens if you check-call the flop, then hit your draw on the turn? If you check the turn, your opponent might very well check behind you, fearing that you hit. If you lead at the pot, you're pretty much announcing that you made your hand and your opponent might fold. So, even if you hit, you may not get paid in proportion to the risk you took by calling on a draw.

Rather than check-call, I often like to check-raise when I flop a draw out of position. This sort of situation comes up most frequently when playing from the blinds. For example, say that I'm in the big blind with Ad-6d and I call a raise from a late position player who popped it to three times the big blind. The flop, Td-5d-3s, gives me the nut flush draw.

After calling from the blind, I'd expect to check the flop almost every time. It's the natural progression of the hand: my opponent took the lead pre-flop and I'm going to allow him to keep it. I'd expect him to make a continuation bet most of the time, even when he misses the flop completely. Most aggressive players will stab at small pots in these situations.

If he does bet, this is the perfect kind of flop for a check-raise. It's likely that my opponent raised with two big cards - something like A-K or A-Q - and, if that's the case, he's missed this flop completely and will almost certainly fold to the check-raise. Or, if he's got something like A-T or K-T, he may be worried that he's run into a bigger hand and he'll likely just call the raise.

If he does call the check-raise, I can then make a decision on the turn. Sometimes I'll check and sometimes I'll lead out, regardless of whether I hit my draw. If I missed, I may continue the semi-bluff or I may check with the hope that my check-raise on the flop was sufficient to make my opponent nervous and get me a free river card. If I hit, I may choose to continue my aggressive play and put my opponent to a decision or, I may check, deceptively representing fear of my opponent's having the draw.

Of course, things won't always work out. If the initial raiser has something like pocket Aces or a set, I'm likely to be re-raised and shut out of the hand. But nothing works out every time in poker.

Try varying your play when you flop draws. Look for opportunities to check-raise. It may be the best way to proceed with a draw when playing out of position.

Jaden

I count to 12 before making any decision on any street. This disguises the times I'm thinking it through. Drives some players nuts.

jimmii

Best mix it up between playing draws passive or aggressive. Raise the first couple of flush draws then check/call a couple after that. Try take a little longer about all decisions instead of making quick calls or raises in other situations. Its better to think any action through before you make it anyway.

If it is against a weak player then a raise them if you have position and pot any turn if they check all of a sudden there TPTK won't look so nice to them. If it is a decent tight player its better to try make your hand instead.

bops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In my experience, quick calls are more indicative of draws than anything else. Thinking for a period before flat calling a bet is generally something bad players do when they have a decent made hand.

DOT!

1) Just mix it up!

2) My biggest considerations the stack sizes & vunerabilities - do you mind getting your stack in at this point or does he mind getting it in with TPTK etc?

Deepstacked and aggro - more of a tendency to call if you don't want to commit yourself

Deepstacked and tight - Raise - you wont expect to be reraised and you could take it down now

I generally give it a good dwell if im only gonna call for my draw - this generally scares my opponents - they usually expect me to raise with a draw (given my image) - when i call after a good dwell they think i've the nuts!!

ianmc38

rag2gar wrote:

Haha just as I finished writing this I got almost exactly the same siuation online as described. I didnt take 10 secs as I had just thought through such a spot!

Sklanksys book advocates the exact opposite. He says to just call with the nut flush draw, but to semibluff raise the non nut draw.

I tend to raise both alot but varying calling and raising frequencies is of course essential.

robinlacey

one thing to be aware of if you're check raising draws on the flop:at 2/4 and up you will usually need to continue on the turn most of the time (dunno about 1/2 and below but i'd imagine most opponents aren't observant enough for this to be an issue)

i have lots of notes on people that say "c/r flop with draw,didn't follow through on turn",and its a great thing to know about someone.

i'm not so sure that check raising the flop with draws is a great idea in general though,unless you are doing it with your sets a lot too.

bet/3bet pushing with draws out of position was all the rage for a while but it seems to have died down a lot recently,which means it might be time to start doing it again,especially since raising the flop has become a lot more common in the meantime.

as for in position,i've been just calling in position with draws a lot more recently,most of my flop raises these days are either bluffs or hands i'm trying to get all in with.

as with all this type of stuff though,variety is the key.

ianmc38

robinlacey wrote:

one thing to be aware of if you're check raising draws on the flop:at 2/4 and up you will usually need to continue on the turn most of the time (dunno about 1/2 and below but i'd imagine most opponents aren't observant enough for this to be an issue)

i have lots of notes on people that say "c/r flop with draw,didn't follow through on turn",and its a great thing to know about someone.

i'm not so sure that check raising the flop with draws is a great idea in general though,unless you are doing it with your sets a lot too.

bet/3bet pushing with draws out of position was all the rage for a while but it seems to have died down a lot recently,which means it might be time to start doing it again,especially since raising the flop has become a lot more common in the meantime.

as for in position,i've been just calling in position with draws a lot more recently,most of my flop raises these days are either bluffs or hands i'm trying to get all in with.

as with all this type of stuff though,variety is the key.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the cr with a draw on the flop as I think you always have to fire again on the turn. Taylor Caby seems to do it in all his Cardrunners videos (though tbh I think his videos are shockingly bad).

Marq

ianmc38 wrote:

Yeah I'm not a fan of the cr with a draw on the flop as I think you always have to fire again on the turn.

I don't know how anyone can check the turn having check-raised the flop, which should mean that if you check-raise the flop on a draw you have put yourself in a situation where you have to commit a lot of money to the pot when you have nothing.

Having said that check-raise flop/lead turn is a decent line with a draw, as we make a lot of money when we have draws but our opponents fold to aggressive action, while we also build the pot on each street for when we do hit on the turn or river, and even if we miss, our three-street aggression gives us the best image for winning the pot with a river bluff.

If we get three bet on the flop we should drop, and often we should drop to a raise on the turn, both dependent on pot odds after the raise.

the C/R flop seems the most volatile line for playing a draw, but that doesn't necessarily make it bad. It might be the best way of playing certain hands against certain players. As other people have said, Vary your play.

mewso

Just wondering how people vary their play?

Do they slide one across on the abacus when they flat call and decide to raise when they have slid 3 over?

Do they get a spidey sense that they are due a raise this particular time?

ntlbell

musician wrote:

Just wondering how people vary their play?

Do they slide one across on the abacus when they flat call and decide to raise when they have slid 3 over?

Do they get a spidey sense that they are due a raise this particular time?

You have to vary when you vary your play so how and when you vary your play can vary, this keeps them on their toes.

ianmc38

ntlbell wrote:

You have to vary when you vary your play so how and when you vary your play can vary, this keeps them on their toes.

Vary well put