STT Strategy Guide

NickyOD

Here are some tips for playing STTs on line. These are based on my experiences playing $50 and $100 STTs on Party Poker but can and should be applied to STTs on any site. A lot of this is also relevent to multis particularly short stack strategy.

1) When the blinds are small:

Unlike multi table tournament where you have longer blind levels and more oponents to get through. it’s not okay to limp in and see lots of flops early on. Some players like to speculate by limping in with 9T or calling raises with 78s. Don’t do it. The same goes for playing small pairs from early position. They are simply not worth your investment and be careful about overcalling preflop raises with them.

Also don’t bother playing hands like JT/KT/JQ in MP unless there has been limpers. These hands are garbage. Don’t open raise with them unless its folded to you and you are atleast 2 seats from the Cutoff. Fold them in earlier positions and always straight fold KQ, AJ to a raise


2) Don’t go crazy with AK/AQ.

It’s ok to limp with these hands from EP (but I’d probably fold AQ UTG 9 or 10 handed) early on and to cold call raises with them in position (but not all the time) Also you can probably straight fold these hands in MP when faced with a strong UTG raise.

3) Preflop Raising.

I generally raise 3.5BBs until the blinds get big. Any hand I raise with I want to either take the blind, gets heads up or have someone reraise me. There is no hand I would raise with in a STT where I want more than one call and you might be surprised the extra bit of respect raising a little more than the usual 3XBB gets. You are basically announcing. "I have a hand, If you want to play with me you better have something"

20/40 Open taise to 150
30/60 to 200/220
50/100 to 350.
Then always 3BBs on higher levels.

I would never raise light preflop when the blinds are big. I see some players make it 500 when blinds are 100-200 or to 1000 when the blinds are 200-400. I don’t think this achieves anything other than to lessen the chance of your blind steals getting through.

Also when there are limpers you will need to increase you preflop raise considerably to thin the field. Just be certain you hand is strong enough to commit that amount of chips. If not then consider limping or maybe even folding. These sort of hands might be AT or KJ.

4) Postflop.

Generally you should be very consistent with your postflop bet sizing. This will make you unreadable but bet more with your big hands against stations. Alternatively underbet the flop against these players if you feel it will entice a raise. For example. UTG raises and you make a reraise from the button with KK. UTG calls. His range is as bad as KJ and AT here. If the flop is 6-6-2 or Q-7-3r, then one of you is miles ahead of the other, so lets say there is 650 in the pot. Betting 300 is perfectly fine as you don’t mind the villain calling and would love it if he raised. It’s very difficult for any player to release a hand like 99 on either of these flops, so don’t make it easy for him by betting 600. Extracting the maximum from your bigger hands postflop will give you an edge over other above average STT players.

When blinds are big and post-flop the pots begin to represent very big portions of your stack then overbetting the pot by straight pushing with TP (or even with no pair as a continuation bet) when the pot is close to the size of what you have left behind is perfectly fine.

5) Reading what min raises mean.

Be aware that a minimum raise can mean absolutely anything so exercise caution when dealing with them. Generally though they tend to follow certain patterns. A UTG min raise is often a sign of strength while a min raise from MP or the button (especially the button) is more likely to be a weaker hand and you should quite happily reraise here with any hand you would normally open raise with. Also minimum reraises are pretty much always TT-AA and AK/AQ with a greater probability of being QQ-AA.

When you see a min raise take into account several things. Most important is the stack size. A min raise from a short-stack is more likely to be a big hand but sometimes could also be a desperate attempt to pick up the blinds cheaply and add to their dwindling stack.

Min raises from the small blind are tricky and without a note on a player can mean anything. A lot of the time it is no real hand at all but be aware that when blinds are big some players just make a minimum raise with pretty strong hands, even AQ shorthanded. I have sometimes been suckered into pushing over the top of a min raise from the small blind when I'm in the BB with A8 only to be called by AJ.

6) Blind stealing.

Stealing blinds and bullying shorties is absolutely the most important skill in STTs and to miss even one blind steal is considered heresy, so paying attention and picking your spots is imperative.

One thing that is important to realise is that when blinds are big and you are going to raise with the intention of folding to a shove then you should be raising with any 2. Say for example the blinds are 200/400 and you have stack of 5600. The 2 tight players behind you have about 4,200. Neither of them is going to smooth call you. You have A-5 and decide this is a strong enough hand to steal the blinds with so you make it 1200 to go. It’s fine to fold if someone shoves. Now if a player is dealt T-4o in this spot they might decide that this hand is not a blind stealing hand without realising that the cards are irrelevant because there will never be a showdown.

Be careful when blind stealing with bad hands when there are shortstacks behind you. If they are particularly short then it might be profitable to go for a blind steal with any Ace or King or hands as bad as J-T but work out your odds if you are forced to call a RRAI BEFORE you go for the blind steal. Don't pot commit yourself with garbage because doubling up short stacks unnecessarily isn't clever.

On the bubble apply as much pressure as possible on the players looking to blind into the money and be astute enough to realise that when there is a very short stack at the table, you can bully the crap out of the players who don’t want to blow up or get unlucky and have the shortstack outlast them.

Never let your stack get so low that it is gauranteed you will get called when you push. Although this number can change from tournament to tournament, a good guideline is that you want to maintain at least 10xBB. This gives you enough for a sizeable allin raise, and makes it possible that a reraise allin of a 3xBB open raise can make your opponent fold (i.e. so that you can resteal.) I cannot stress how important it is to not fall below 8xBB, especially around the bubble. If you let yourself whittle down to 5xBB, everyone (especially the big stacks) will DEFINATELY bully you around. Your stack won't put a significant dent into their stacks, and it isn't much for someone to call you with mediocre holdings or push on your blind. When you let yourself bleed off you really only leave yourself the chance to get lucky on a double up. It is very hard to steal with a 5xBB stack. And, around the bubble people won't fold to your allin steals as much because it doesn't bust them. When you maintain a 10xBB stack you can get respect and have the chance to accumulate chips when everyone tightens up.

It is especially important to apply this to STTs, where around the bubble you If you have a 5xBB stack, you will get bullied and the blinds will eat your stack faster. If you maintain a 10xBB stack, though, you can target those trying to squeak into the money (and you're not one of them... right?) and steal their blinds.

7) Playing the shortstack.

As a short stack, you want to make aggressive moves that will allow you to build a healthy chip stack, and put yourself in a position to move up the payout ladder. You also want to avoid blinding off without a fight, leading to busting right after the bubble, or worse, bubbling. I am not saying to panic and to start pushing with anything. I am illustrating a way to maintain patience while accumulating chips.

This is really important and probably the biggest hole in most players games so I’ve written quite a bit on this, Even non turbos descend into crapshoots when its 4 or 5 handed, sometimes sooner, so learn how to pick your spots to push. When you have 10BBs or less just go all in preflop except maybe if you have AA/KK where you should probably just make a standard raise. Don’t limp or min raise.

When you have 8BBs or less and its folded to you in the SB you should push into a bigger or similar sized stack with any 2 cards unless there is a very shortstack about to bust that will move you up the money.

Don’t over push with Ace-rag when shortstacked. 5 handed, if you have 8.5BBs UTG with A-5 it is a fold but KQ is a push and with 6BBs I’d probably push with 9T suited from first position 5 handed.

Be careful when calling all-ins from shortstacks. Don’t overcall a RRAI with Ace-Rag. Often when it appears you’re pot committed you might not be. 2:1 might not be enough to call a RRAI with A-2 against certain tight players. The biggest blow ups 3 or 4 handed in STTs are from players over playing Ace rag by overpushing or reraising all-in with them in very bad spots.

Also be careful about pushing into the big stacks with crap hands from the SB when it might be an autocall for them. You may have more success if you wait to push on the button the next hand with any 2 because the big blind is tighter and can’t easily afford to call you.

Let's say the blinds are 100/200 (for easier math.) You have 2000 chips.

In this first situation, you are in the SB with T-9s against an average TAG. They will call your allin with A-K, A-Q, A-J, K-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, J-J, and T-T.

Those hands constitute (.018) + (.048), or 6.6% of possible hands your opponent has been dealt. (I know I am ignoring the fact you have a Ten but that is a minute difference and would only serve to complicate this beyond reason.) This means that you will not be called 93.4% of the time. Your win % against this hand range, when called, is 33.7%. There is 300 in the pot and you have 1900 more. So your expected value is:

EV = .934(300) + .066*.337(2200) + .066*.663(-1900)
EV = +245.99, or slightly less than +1.25BBs on average. So, in this situation, moving in is a correct move.

In this next situation, you are in the SB against a maniac with a huge stack. You have A-4o. You guess the maniac\'s calling range to be any of the 13 A-x hands, any of the 13 pairs, and the other 6 \"Broadway\" hands. This means you will be called 28.7% of the time and will win 42.0% of the times you are called.

EV = .713(300) + .287*.420(2200) + .287*.580(-1900)
EV = +162.81, or about .79 BBs gained on average.

Now you are in the cutoff on the bubble with three very tight players behind you, that will only call with A-A, K-K, Q-Q, and A-K. (I know this situation is unlikely but its just here to illustrate a point) One of the three will pick up one of these hands 2.55% of the time. Ignoring the times when more that one person picks up one of these hands, there is 7.4% one of your opponents has one of those hands. You have 9-2s. You will win only 25.3% of the time you are called. You are moving in for 2000 to win 300.

EV = .926(300) + .074*.253(2300) + .074*.747(-2000)
EV = 210.30, or an average gain of slightly more than one big blind. Surprisingly, this is a positive expected value move.

Finally, you are in EP (Button -4) with 6 people behind you, all of whom are very tight and will only call you with A-K, A-Q, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, and J-J. You have A-Jo. An opponent will get one of these 5.4% of time time, and (once again ignoring repeats) you will get called 28.3% of the time by an opponent. You win % against this hand range when called is 25.6%.

EV = .717(300) + .283*.256(2200) + .283*.744(-1900)
EV = -39.37, or an average loss of more than an eighth of a big blind.

Here, you have a negative expected value even though each individual opponent will rarely call, and you have Ace-Face. An important note is that holding T-9s would make this move have a positive EV of almost one quarter a BB (31.73 chips)

It is important to apply this advice in the correct context. I have given you a few situations and shown you how to do some of the math. I realise that these calculations would be very hard to do within your allotted amount of time. But if you play around with some of the numbers, you can come up with answers to common situations. Personally, I do a quick guestimation based on what I think my opponents will call with and a quick evaluation of what I think my win % will be. As you do more of these calculations, split second guestimations can become part of your game. Until then, evaluate some situations for yourself. You may be surprised with some of the results you get. And remember, as you push in more, people's hand calling ranges open up, so take that into consideration when you make your calculations.

The Sheriff 101

Nice post

insafehands

NickyOD wrote:

Unlike multi table tournament where you have longer blind levels and fewer oponents to get through. it’s not okay to limp in and see lots of flops early on.

?

MacStacked

vnp nicky, fair play.

NickyOD

insafehands wrote:

?

ok, ok I fixed it. Such an obvious typo!!

breadmonkey

NickyOD wrote:

be astute enough to realise that when there is a very short stack at the table, you can bully the crap out of the players who don’t want to blow up or get unlucky and have the shortstack outlast them.



When you have 8BBs or less and its folded to you in the SB you should push into a bigger or similar sized stack with any 2 cards unless there is a very shortstack about to bust that will move you up the money.

Nice post but these two bits seem to contradict eachother.

NickyOD

breadmonkey wrote:

Nice post but these two bits seem to contradict eachother.

They don't.

sikes

You seem to have completely ignored the only concept which is critical to success in SNGs, and how they differ from cash, ICM. There is no point doing usual EV calculations without considering ICM.

Theres some good advice there but some I disagree with.

1)Limping is fine in the early stages becuase bad players generally dont make it too far. Limping hands like 78s etc is fine.

However, you dont want to play hands like JT, KQ, KT in a multiway pot, so you should never overlimp them because they dont play well in multiway pots, unless they are suited of course.

2) Never open limp AK utg in a sng, thats just really really bad. Its very unlikely we are getting raised by weaker hands. We want to play the hand heads up being the aggressor not in a multiway limped pot, or passively heads up.

6) sometimes you have to blind into the money, becuase not doing so is pissing $$ away. Its also very difficult to set thresholds in BB terms without any knowledge of other stacks and total BBs in play.

7) Usually the most important thing is to get onto the ladder before moving up.

ditpoker

nicky, fair play to you for putting so much effort into this, but a few things in your post i disagree with in part or completely. And there are some things that go against what you say in other parts of your strategy. I have no doubt you are a winning STT player but the way some of what you have said is written makes it appear as if it should be taken as gospel, i'm simply advocating for other readers to take your advice with an open mind.

when the blinds are small always straight fold KQ, AJ to a raise.

for me, if i have someone who is playing as you describe to my left i will raise raise raise, knowing that you will only play back at me with a monster. it is profitable for me to steal your blinds or to bet you off pots because when you do finally play back I have so much of your stack that you cutting off one of my raises with your AA wont affect me. to say someone should always fold KQ or AJ to a raise makes you very easy to read and beat.

Also don’t bother playing hands like JT/KT/JQ in MP unless there has been limpers. These hands are garbage.

what do u think limpers are getting involved with? if there are 3 limpers before me, JT goes into the muck. if there are 3 limpers before me, and i have 75suited, i'll stick in a x5-6 bb raise and see how happy theselimpers are with their QJ or KT.

2) Don’t go crazy with AK/AQ.

It’s ok to limp with these hands from EP (but I’d probably fold AQ UTG 9 or 10 handed) early on and to cold call raises with them in position (but not all the time) Also you can probably straight fold these hands in MP when faced with a strong UTG raise.

i don't know where to start. its not ok to limp with AK, folding AQ cos there's a table of players ahead of you!?!? raise more... make your opponents make mistakes! limp folding will not win STT's.

"I have a hand, If you want to play with me you better have something"

by playing as passively as described in sections 1 and 2 this is all you are saying. so you raise to 3.5bb's, you know i know how passive you are playing so you know i know you have a hand... so i stick in 10bb's... so you gotta fold, right?!?

When blinds are big and post-flop the pots begin to represent very big portions of your stack then overbetting the pot by straight pushing with TP (or even with no pair as a continuation bet) when the pot is close to the size of what you have left behind is perfectly fine.

just because blinds have increased doesnt mean we have to go broke with top pair!

alot of what you have posted seems to me that you are the type of player who is uber-tight early on the gamboools as you get close to the money, so your varience for cashing will be quite high. effectively your end of tourney varience is high and early tourny varience is quite low. thats one style. i'm a bigger fan of trying to build a stack early so i can attack the shorter stacks as we get into the money. effectively my end of tourney varience is lower and early tourny varience is higher. thats anotehr style.

i'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere.

breadmonkey

NickyOD wrote:

They don't.

explain

NickyOD

breadmonkey wrote:

explain

In the first instance I'm talking about pressuring other stacks without necessrily committing all my chips.

breadmonkey

NickyOD wrote:

In the first instance I'm talking about pressuring other stacks without necessrily committing all my chips.

ok thanks

NickyOD

ditpoker wrote:

nicky, fair play to you for putting so much effort into this, but a few things in your post i disagree with in part or completely. And there are some things that go against what you say in other parts of your strategy. I have no doubt you are a winning STT player but the way some of what you have said is written makes it appear as if it should be taken as gospel, i'm simply advocating for other readers to take your advice with an open mind.

I'm sorry you think I'm presenting the post as gospel because that's not my intention at all. Everyone is free to poke holes in it. Everyone can play poker whatever way they want to, but I think I'm well qualified to give advice on the subject.

ditpoker wrote:

for me, if i have someone who is playing as you describe to my left i will raise raise raise, knowing that you will only play back at me with a monster. it is profitable for me to steal your blinds or to bet you off pots because when you do finally play back I have so much of your stack that you cutting off one of my raises with your AA wont affect me. to say someone should always fold KQ or AJ to a raise makes you very easy to read and beat.

Would you not fold KQ or AJ in MP when face with an EP raise? Do you tihnk these are premum hands or something?

When you sit down to an online STT you usually have no idea how most of the players at the table are playing and you certainly won't have any clue if the guy on your left is straight fold KQ or AJ when you raise, and you certainly won't be taking much of my stack when the blinds are 20/40!!!

The reason there is so much value in playing very tight early on in STTs is because when the blinds are bigger you have a tight table image and can change gears with a better chance of stealing pots. You also get to see how everyone is playing and assess which players to target before committing much of your stack.

ditpoker wrote:

what do u think limpers are getting involved with? if there are 3 limpers before me, JT goes into the muck. if there are 3 limpers before me, and i have 75suited, i'll stick in a x5-6 bb raise and see how happy theselimpers are with their QJ or KT.

This is not a deep stacked cash game we're talking about. This is a knock out tournament with a starting stack of 50BBs which quickly turns into a crapshoot. If you think raising with 5-7 is profitable here then you are likely to blow up quite a lot early in STTs. I'm not advocating blinding your way into the money, but it's not a 60 meter dash.

J-T has value in a multiway pot because it is a drawing hand and has some top pair value. If you think raising with 5-7 here is profitable then you haven't been palying too many STTs lately. You will be called in atleat one spot and no one is folding TP or a draw.There is very little value in bluffing early in STTs.

ditpoker wrote:

i don't know where to start. its not ok to limp with AK, folding AQ cos there's a table of players ahead of you!?!? raise more... make your opponents make mistakes! limp folding will not win STT's.

Show me where in the OP I said anything about limp-folding? I'm talking about AK in first position 10 handed in the first level.

ditpoker wrote:

by playing as passively as described in sections 1 and 2 this is all you are saying. so you raise to 3.5bb's, you know i know how passive you are playing so you know i know you have a hand... so i stick in 10bb's... so you gotta fold, right?!?

Huh? You know I have a real hand so you'll reraise me? How is this good for you? How often do you tihnk I will fold?

ditpoker wrote:

just because blinds have increased doesnt mean we have to go broke with top pair!

This isn't what I said at all. I'm talking about bet sizing postflop in relation to your stack size.

ditpoker wrote:

alot of what you have posted seems to me that you are the type of player who is uber-tight early on the gamboools as you get close to the money, so your varience for cashing will be quite high. effectively your end of tourney varience is high and early tourny varience is quite low. thats one style. i'm a bigger fan of trying to build a stack early so i can attack the shorter stacks as we get into the money. effectively my end of tourney varience is lower and early tourny varience is higher. thats anotehr style.

i'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere.

I haven't played STTs in maybe a year so my current sample size is small but over my last 49X10 player STTs I have finished ITM 55% of the time so I have no problem with high variance. 12 1sts, 7 2nds and 8 3rds. for $2,155 profit and a ROI of just under 80%. This is high becaiuse the sample size is small. I think my old databse had at least 500 STTs in it with a ROI of about 15% for $50 and $100 STTs.

ArmaniJeanss

Very good post Nicky... I'm struggling to focus on it at the moment due to 4 days alcohol but always good to see STT strategy discussed instead of the usual cashament rubbish.

Out of interest did you see this thread from RasTa on Friday discussing how to play awkward hands in EP in the first few hands of STTs, interested to hear your views.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055088370

Edit. 'Cashament' makes no sense does it, substitute 'donkacash' ?

Hectorjelly

So there seems to be a disagreement as to what is the best strategy. So who has stats to back up their claims?

sikes

Hectorjelly wrote:

So there seems to be a disagreement as to what is the best strategy. So who has stats to back up their claims?

Most of the things that I think are wrong in the post is just basic poker theory. Hands that you dont want to play in a multiway pot etc etc.

However, when you do EV calcs in SNGs you have to use ICM and, bar lenny, i have not seen any discussion about it in SNG hands at all and will be a huge leak in peopling moving up the stakes, perhaps you can get away with it at the $20/$50 level but if you want to play the >100s these days ignoring ICM is going to cost you big time, and people will be making really bad plays on bubbles.

As for stats, when I played SNGs I played them like an idiot but I could still make a decent ROI solely because everyone else was even more idiotic, though it was over a samll sample of about 2k games.

RoundTower

aren't SNGs basically solved after the first three or four levels?

I think section 7 is pretty bad, these calculations don't take into account the payouts and the difference between $ev and chip ev. The rest is pretty fluffy too, without reading it properly I can't say it's outright wrong though, and it might be some good for beginners.

valor

what is this mysterious ICM you speak of?

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

aren't SNGs basically solved after the first three or four levels?

I think section 7 is pretty bad, these calculations don't take into account the payouts and the difference between $ev and chip ev. The rest is pretty fluffy too, without reading it properly I can't say it's outright wrong though, and it might be some good for beginners.

Why is section 7 bad?

NickyOD

valor wrote:

what is this mysterious ICM you speak of?

"The problem with using only chip stacks and chips to determine the correct play in a single table tournament or SnG is that the chips do not correlate to their actual value on a one-to-one basis. An ICM Calcuator computes the tournament equity that a certain chip stack has in relation to the other stacks at the table in order to determine the true value of the stacks. You can then use the ICM equity values to calculate pot odds and get a closer answer to the correct decision in tournaments."

valor

ok cheers

dvdfan

Two very good ICM tools for reviewing hands is:

http://www.sitngo-analyzer.com/

http://www.sngwiz.com/

Personally i like sng wizard better because its more graphical and it also calculates ICM when there is a raise already in wheras sng power tools only calculates ICM when youre open raising all in, but they are both great tools and well worth the money if your playing sngs seriously.

NickyOD

sikes wrote:

You seem to have completely ignored the only concept which is critical to success in SNGs, and how they differ from cash, ICM. There is no point doing usual EV calculations without considering ICM.

The ONLY critical concept?

sikes wrote:

1)Limping is fine in the early stages becuase bad players generally dont make it too far.

I don't understand what this sentence means.

sikes wrote:

Limping hands like 78s etc is fine.
However, you dont want to play hands like JT, KQ, KT in a multiway pot, so you should never overlimp them because they dont play well in multiway pots, unless they are suited of course.

I'm talking about limping in from mid to late position with these hands, after other players have limped and the blinds are small. I would limp with 78s there too, but I'm amazed you actually believe 78s is far superior to the other hands you metioned in this situation. It's not.

sikes wrote:

2) Never open limp AK utg in a sng, thats just really really bad. Its very unlikely we are getting raised by weaker hands. We want to play the hand heads up being the aggressor not in a multiway limped pot, or passively heads up.

In first position very early in a 10 handed SnG and you raise to 150. There are 9 players to act behind you. How often do you think you will get heads up? The answer is not very often.

If you limp in for 2% of your stack and hit the flop, you're still likely to have the best hand against more than one oponent. You hand is also well disguised so you can get some muppet with A9 calling you down. Also if someone raises behind you can always limp raise, but i'm not a huge fan of that unless you're shallow stack.

sikes wrote:

6) sometimes you have to blind into the money, becuase not doing so is pissing $$ away. Its also very difficult to set thresholds in BB terms without any knowledge of other stacks and total BBs in play.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. What thresholds are you setting?

Hitman Actual

NickyOD wrote:

Why is section 7 bad?

Because it doesn't take into account the $EV, just the CEV. The CEV part is right, and is exactly the way I calculate it as well, but you haven't added the $EV part. Some decisions which are marginally +CEV become -$EV when it comes to payout structure.

I assumed everyone used ICM these days in STT's. I know it's only a model and has some flaws, but it's the best $EV method out there. If anyone wants another post on the maths behind it (i.e. the pure maths of how it works, not just how to apply it), then I'll get one going. You need to understand the model before you can really use it. Following it blindly isn't the best way to go, imo.

The_Chopper

sikes wrote:

Never open limp AK utg in a sng, thats just really really bad. Its very unlikely we are getting raised by weaker hands. We want to play the hand heads up being the aggressor not in a multiway limped pot, or passively heads up.

I think this is very bad advice when playing levels under 100 buy in. People will raise with anything from A8 to 56s to small PP, no matter how many limpers or what position they've limped from.

Also if you raise UTG with AK and get 2 or more callers you're going to have to play the rest of the hand OOP, and if you don't hit you might as well say goodbye to the pot. If you're not willing to give the pot up at this point, you might have to play for the rest of your stack at this early stage - cos people are muppet flavoured muppets who play like muppets

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Gholimoli

SNG’s are not solved but do come as close as possible to being solved considering it’s a poker game.

dvdfan

The_Chopper wrote:

I think this is very bad advice when playing levels under 100 buy in. People will raise with anything from A8 to 56s to small PP, no matter how many limpers or what position they've limped from.

Also if you raise UTG with AK and get 2 or more callers you're going to have to play the rest of the hand OOP, and if you don't hit you might as well say goodbye to the pot. If you're not willing to give the pot up at this point, you might have to play for the rest of your stack at this early stage - cos people are muppet flavoured muppets who play like muppets

You need to be pretty sure someone is going to be raising you to be limping UTG as it dosent play well in a multipot, heads up against a random hand youve a 65% chance of having the better hand but with just 1 extra limper your now only 47%, 4 limpers and your AK is only holding up 35% of the time so you can see the importance of getting heads up.

I cant see the advantage of limping to be honest, so often youll see people min raise and then you might end up with a couple of callers then what do you do, start RR 4 limpers OOP and build a big pot, if your raising UTG your announcing you have a hand and will take it down alot of times on a dry flop if you miss heads up.

I can see where limping AA-KK UTG can be good if theres aggressive players acting after you as you can RR them but im not such a big fan of doinf it with AK. If anyone uses this technique can they please run in through the filters on Poker Tracker and let me know if its profitable.

sikes

NickyOD wrote:

The ONLY critical concept?

Its the only critical concept that is unqiue to sng or fast jumping payout structures and where sngs differs to cash. Yeah cash might play deeper but it doesnt have to.

NickyOD wrote:

I don't understand what this sentence means.

We want to get into pots cheaply with speculative hands against bad players when deep.

NickyOD wrote:

I'm talking about limping in from mid to late position with these hands, after other players have limped and the blinds are small. I would limp with 78s there too, but I'm amazed you actually believe 78s is far superior to the other hands you metioned in this situation. It's not.

76s etc are far far superior to JTo and other connected off suit hands in a multiway pot. I wouldnt play them for pair value becuase the reverse implied odds are really bad. JTs is fine, but I make the distinction that it has to be suited becuase the equity gained means we can semi bluff more successfully, and in a limped pot people are often weary and are unlikely to go broke meaning our FE is big.

I never play JTo for pair value in a multiway limped pot. That doesnt mean to say im just going to open fold, but many situations will arise where its not profitable to continue with the hand becuase of the money behind in relation to the money in the pot, even though our hand might be best right now.

Also I would never open limp hands like suited connectors without other limpers in the pot and a good chance of having position on most players in the pot. They suck OOP but you seem to agree with that.

NickyOD wrote:

In first position very early in a 10 handed SnG and you raise to 150. There are 9 players to act behind you. How often do you think you will get heads up? The answer is not very often.

AK is a muck hand multiway when we have loads of chips behind in relation to the money in the pot because all its ever going to really be is top pair, top kicker. When we are OOP this suckiness of the hands gets greater becuase we get into more difficult situations.

I would open fold AK OOP, then to open limp it when there is a high chance that its going to go call/fold/call etc and get a load of limpers. I dont see how thats profitable.

NickyOD wrote:

If you limp in for 2% of your stack and hit the flop, you're still likely to have the best hand against more than one oponent. You hand is also well disguised so you can get some muppet with A9 calling you down. Also if someone raises behind you can always limp raise, but i'm not a huge fan of that unless you're shallow stack.

The problem is you are limping with 2% of your stack with a powerful hand thats going to be mutilway. AK is not to be played this way when the game is passive. If the game is aggro we can limp/call, limp/raise but thats not the way sngs play early.

NickyOD wrote:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. What thresholds are you setting?

I said Im not setting threasholds, you are. Talking about not letting yourself below 8BBs is just crazy without knowing the context it is in. You can have folding equity with 3BBs.

dacman

Just a few questions nicky. Can u let me know what u think. Thanks in adavance

1.Can you give me your taughts on stt bankroll managment
2.When should you move up or down stakes.
3.Whats the best site to play stts.
4.Is multitabling stts a good idea
5.Are cash games more profitable

Cheers

Dac

RoadSweeper

I enoyed the post and found it helpful

Any thing must be read with an open mind.

Good post Nicky!

NickyOD

dacman wrote:

Just a few questions nicky. Can u let me know what u think. Thanks in adavance

1.Can you give me your taughts on stt bankroll managment
2.When should you move up or down stakes.
3.Whats the best site to play stts.
4.Is multitabling stts a good idea
5.Are cash games more profitable

Cheers

Dac

1) I think 20 buy-ins is fine for stakes that you beat comfortably but 25-30 for a level that you move up to.

2) Presuming you're multi-tabling I think it's good idea to mix buy-ins before moving up completely. When I wanted to make the step up from 50s to 100s I'd play 2X50s and 1X100 buy table at the same time. If you make a good start on the 100s then you can gradually phase out the lower buy in and move exclusively to the higher one, but that depends on how high the traffic is on the site you're playing.

I don't know what stakes you are playing but to move from the 20s and 30s to higher levels you should have at least a few hundred STTs under your belt with a minimum ROI 12% but if you're comfortably bankrolled there's no harm in trying them out to see how easy you find them.

3) I hear Everest is very good for STTs at the moment. Super soft with very good structures. I like Party because the faster structure means I can play more in a shorter space of time and I'm good at rolling the dice when the blinds get big. I could probably achieve a higher ROI on Everest or Pokerstars but my hourly rate would be higher on Party. i never play turbos though. I just find them frustrating and on party the turbos are fast to the point of being complete bingo around the bubble.

4) Multi tabling any form of poker online is a good idea. Anyone should be comfortable with playing 2 or 3 tables at a time. Playing more just takes practice and concentration. With STTs though you should try and stagger them so you're not playing several short handed at the same time.

5) i don't think you can compare the two really. Everyone has a game that suits their style. Some players are good at smashing up tournaments but do their brains in cash games. Lately I'm one of those players.

RoadSweeper

Do you ever play LAG or even Gus hansen style in STT? Is there ever a need?

Is it common in higher stakes STT?

RoundTower

NickyOD wrote:

Why is section 7 bad?

"The problem with using only chip stacks and chips to determine the correct play in a single table tournament or SnG is that the chips do not correlate to their actual value on a one-to-one basis. An ICM Calcuator computes the tournament equity that a certain chip stack has in relation to the other stacks at the table in order to determine the true value of the stacks. You can then use the ICM equity values to calculate pot odds and get a closer answer to the correct decision in tournaments."

Hectorjelly

Why dont you guys put 1k on it and play 5k stts each, and see which strategy wins.

sikes

Playing on 20 or 30 buyins is going to cause you a lot of heartache when you have to drop 3 or 4 levels when you go on the downswing which will will always happen in SNGs. A few hundred games breakeven and 20 games without cashing is standard these days. I seem to remember nicnicnic talk about it recently. I wonder where he is?

I would have said 100 buyins for anything above $50 games which arent full of idiots.

Hectorjelly

almost completely off topic, but does everyone not find stts get very tedious?

sikes

yes. When i see numbers that some people play on 2+2 i wonder how they never did their brains.

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

almost completely off topic, but does everyone not find stts get very tedious?

You could say the same about any game you play fora long time. I tend to play 2 multis and 2 SnGs at the same time. 4 tabling SnGs all day definitely does my head in.

NickyOD

RoadSweeper wrote:

Do you ever play LAG or even Gus hansen style in STT? Is there ever a need?

Is it common in higher stakes STT?

No I'd probably never play very loose postflop. When the blinds get big and I have chips I've sometimes just gone all-in every hand because everyone is palying so weak tight.

Higher level STTs are usually all about micro edges. Generally the play is very solid tight but there iare always idiots going crazy, even at the highest stakes.

strewelpeter

Hectorjelly wrote:

almost completely off topic, but does everyone not find stts get very tedious?

Only when they're running bad.