Better schools or teach those with learning diabilities?

Kipperhell

I was talking with a friend and the issue of schools came up. WE spoke about how the government failed to deleiver the places they said but instead delivered beter treatment for those with learning disabilities.
WE just couldn't decide if that was the best use of resources. Being very uncaring you can argue that in the interest of best results for future earnings of the country it must make most sense to get the best educated work force.
Being caring for the best quality of life it only seems fair to try and help thosue who need it such as those with learning disabiolities and other such problems.
I can't help thinking that money spent on the majority to make them educated rather than the minority so they can function a better but not contribute, financially at least.
Yes, there would be savings when long term care is considered but It doesn't sound like a feasability study has been done in the calious way.
I am not decided and I can see that both views have merrit what do others think?

spurious

What exactly do you mean by special needs?
How severe a disability?
Would dyslexia be one?

kittenkiller

I think that focussing on the educational needs of those with learning difficulties/dissabilities can only help the majority in the process.
In many schools kids with learning problems are just dumped in with the rest of the kids their own age.
This leads to frustrations on everyones part.
The kids with difficulties are lost in the regular classes, the kids without difficulties are losing their teachers time as some kids need more attention and to go at a slower pace and the teacher feels like they're teaching two classes at once.

Ploughing money into better training for more teachers to be able to better facilitate kids with difficulties and forming special dedicated classes will free up other teachers to focus on progressing with the rest of the class at a pace that challenges and stimulates them more.

Yes, more resources need to be given to the majority, but start with the people who need it most first and we can all benifit from the result.

thebaz

i think all kids should get an equal educational chance -- children with special needs should get adequate help -- what i think happens now, is a small minority of kids with learning difficulties and a very diligent parent , fight tooth and nail to get the state to pay for incredibly expensive one to one teaching -- i don't think this is right , as i know for sure that the majority of kids with special needs are getting left behind -- each school in Ireland should be equipped to handle its share of special needs children , and not just expect only certain schools to do so.

Kipperhell

spurious wrote:

What exactly do you mean by special needs?
How severe a disability?
Would dyslexia be one?

Personally I would say anything that requires an extra teaching assitant for the individual.
Dyslexia, AFAIK, is generally not that intesive.
I would be thinking more along the lines of autisim. I would agree with the government decision to provide a certain level of education but not what some claim is the best. I know it is not nice and I feel for the families but I think it is more important to make sure the majority of society is catered for. Is it right to have a leaking class cramed with students or one child trapped in their own personal world. It a tough choice and I can't quite decide.

watsgone

Kipperhell wrote:

I can't help thinking that money spent on the majority to make them educated rather than the minority so they can function a better but not contribute, financially at least.

I think It is more important to provide for the children with special needs and learning support. In Ireland these are grossly inadequte.
Many children in need in support be it small assistance in language and maths to does who need a lot more supervision at left undiagiosned and without help with the majority at the moment.
This slows down the class as a whole and can leave those with a small need so far behind that they can develop a much greater need.
This can leave a child with very low self esteem ( I dont understand the stuff my class does) and this can create its own problems in later life.

A soceity can only truely be judge by the way it treats the more weaker members.

crazy_dude6662

i am dyslexic. i found that my primary school were kinda useless, i would get a small amount of help, but at the rate i was going my parents were told i would be lucky to master 3 letter words and that i would never be able to do the junior cert.

my parents refused to give up on me as my school had basically done so they got me a tutor, twice a week i had sessions with her and i went to some dyslexic night school (which was a pain in the ass)

the extra help teacher i had in school was really useless, she focused on irish only and we barely did the english language. in 5th class i was exempt from irish and that was a great improvement, i would have help during the irish class and be with my class the rest of the day so i didnt feel stupid/like an outcast as i had done the previous years. the new resourse teacher was brilliant, and she helped so much.

so in my opinion it depends on the teacher, the teachers need better training and it does depend on if they are capable of handling children with disabilities.

i am pleased to say that i got an A in my junior cert english last year, and i was a member of D.C.U.'s C.T.Y.I. (Center for the Talented Youth of Ireland) programme.


there is a problem in secondry school though, i have gotten virtually no help in my new school if i hadn't come along so well previously i would have just slid back until i had the same problems. the teachers all think i am stupid (exept one or two) so i find that im quite lazy when it comes to school, i dont bother becuase there is no pressure on me from the teachers to do better because they just assume im doing my best or that i am struggling, but i know that i can get A's in all my subjects if i actually tried, but i really dont feel the need to study because nobody is telling me i can do better, or that i have to improve.
my parents dont push me to study because they know that there is no panic until the leaving sylabus (i have no clue how to spell that).

but i do plan to start studying soon (really just so i can get 600 in the leaving and basically tell my teachers they were wrong(that is the only thing that is encouraging me to actually study))


-CD

Catari Jaguar

Kipperhell wrote:

I was talking with a friend and the issue of schools came up. WE spoke about how the government failed to deleiver the places they said but instead delivered beter treatment for those with learning disabilities.
WE just couldn't decide if that was the best use of resources. Being very uncaring you can argue that in the interest of best results for future earnings of the country it must make most sense to get the best educated work force.
Being caring for the best quality of life it only seems fair to try and help thosue who need it such as those with learning disabilities and other such problems.
I can't help thinking that money spent on the majority to make them educated rather than the minority so they can function a better but not contribute, financially at least.
Yes, there would be savings when long term care is considered but It doesn't sound like a feasability study has been done in the calious way.
I am not decided and I can see that both views have merrit what do others think?

Hmm... You're really getting into a complicated issue here and unless you're familiar with the Dept. circulars 24/03 and 02/05 (sess.ie) you prob shouldn't start a thread. They list the conditions and how much extra time a child deserves to get (based on their condition) in a school.

Basically the dept has 2 categories, Specific Learning Disabilities and General Learning Disabilites (borderline-severe).
There are also "gifted children", "visually/hearing impaired" and "speech and language disorders" listed in Special Needs circulars.

SLD have at least average IQ and include the dys' like dyspraxia/dyslexia... and also Autism. These children are usually in a mainstream class and may receive learning support from a resource teacher (3-5 hours p/w) but generally are manageable for a class teacher and don't hold back the rest (as some people would think).

GLD have significantly low IQ and generally have several learning disabilites (e.g Downe's Syndrome). For a child to be classed by the dept as having an "emotional behavioural disturbance" (ADHD etc) they must be receiving of "outside treatment" (whatever that is) and have a psychological report to receive help from schools.

Schools have to apply for resource teachers for children with S/GLD. There's a circular on that too (08/03). There are 3 stages and the percentile rank has to be taken into account. It's seriously red taped, complicated stuff.


A class teacher can differentiate and create an intervention plan template of 2 terms for a child to help in whatever area (academic, social, motor skills etc). A child must have a diagnostic test and parental permission before getting special needs help in a mainstream school and they get an SNA (special needs assistant). Over 4000 new SNAs were sent out over last few years.

Most parents don't want their child in a special school. The government can't just build say, an ADHD school in some county for all children with ADHD. They are in main stream classes and catered for as best as can at the moment (by teachers, the State is pretty useless). This is all fairly new and circulars change very frequently. There are excellent special schools for children with physical special needs but a lot of parents want their children to go to a normal school.

In college, my class has been first class to ever complete a 3 year Spec. Ed. course.. Older, untrained teachers might not recognise a child with a special need, which is a shame, considering how every class in the country has at least one child with a learning disabiliy of some kind. But inservice and courses are being created for them.

Catari Jaguar

watsgone wrote:

This slows down the class as a whole.

Bull****

spurious

Given that the vast majority of Irish second-level schools discriminate on intake and do not take kids that need extra help (at varying levels of 'special needs'), the only people who can really report on what the situation is like is someone who attends or works in a school that does not 'recommend' to special needs kids (or their parents) that they 'would be better off' elsewhere.

I teach a number of classes with children with special needs in them. The majority have behavioural or learning problems, some have physical issues. For some, we can have an extra person in the class. Some have their own personal assistant. For many, the best we can offer is an IEP and a hope for the best.

Language and maths support is quite well covered as we would have a large number of such children to whom our school has been 'recommended' by other local schools. It's one way to keep your results up I suppose. Since we have substantial numbers of these children, we can have Maths and English 'splits' to allow for different abilities. There is less support available for other subjects, as allowances are used on a school-wide basis and there is a bit of swings and roundabouts goes on.

That said, we have children who go from non-reading to passing an Ordinary Level Junior Cert., so whatever we are doing works.

ALL schools should have to take their fair share of kids with difficulties.

crazy_dude6662

Lil Kitten wrote:

Bull****

well it does. if you have to stop to explain somthing to one child that everyone else has gotten it slows down the class.
likewise if you have a foreighn child that knows only how to speak english and you have to teach them how to punctuate and spell, it slows down the class.

Catari Jaguar

Do you teach? There's a thing called differentiation. You do realise that not all children do the exact same thing? Different worksheets, different exercises, pair work, group work, one to one explanations while the others are working on another task. Some of the children are lucky enough to get learning support too. You don't know what you're talking about. If you do teach, you must be poor at it.

I'm not saying it's the perfect situation, but you make do. This whole "weak kids fcuk up school for the rest, lets throw them all together in a special school" closed minded attitude annoys me.

If the effort at home and school and by the govt is made, it should work fine. All kids have the right to an education that suits them.

So to answer your poll, pump money into training teachers about spec. educational needs and into regular schools, because thats where the majority of children with special needs are. There's no us vs. them competition.

watsgone

Well thats one way of looking at it.

Distruptive children feeling frustrated are always going to be a reality. And there will always be a child who will not ask for help due to shyness etc.

Distruption bore out of frustratation and a what and need for extra help slows down the class.
If the issues are addressed there is no reason why main stream schools cannot cater for children with extra needs, without leaving anyone behind.

I am very pleased to hear it isnt a problem for you and your teaching method. Not all schools and teachers are as lucky.
And even the younger teachers can miss problems this is only human.

crazy_dude6662

Lil Kitten wrote:

Do you teach? There's a thing called differentiation. You do realise that not all children do the exact same thing? Different worksheets, different exercises, pair work, group work, one to one explanations while the others are working on another task. Some of the children are lucky enough to get learning support too. You don't know what you're talking about. If you do teach, you must be poor at it.

I'm not saying it's the perfect situation, but you make do. This whole "weak kids fcuk up school for the rest, lets throw them all together in a special school" closed minded attitude annoys me.

If the effort at home and school and by the govt is made, it should work fine. All kids have the right to an education that suits them.

So to answer your poll, pump money into training teachers about spec. educational needs and into regular schools, because thats where the majority of children with special needs are. There's no us vs. them competition.

no, i dont, but i am speaking from my experiances. in my old school the kids with problems (including me) slowed down the class. e.g. the teacher might have to take time out of another subject becuase i couldnt do a sum and it had to be explained to me, then more time is wasted while i argued i was right and the book and teacher was wrong.