Interesting Hand from SE Deepstack

delanec8

I don't normally post many hands here but i thought this hand was pretty interesting and probably will create differing opinions (i may be wrong, it could be clear cut to most, but i don't think so). Anyway i was wondering what people would do in player A's situation? I think it's close between pushing and folding

A and B have only played a couple of times together, but would not have any reason to think the other was not fairly solid.

Level 4: 100/200

Effective Stacks
Player A: 8100 (UTG+3)
Player B: 8600 (UTG+2)

UTG+1 limps as does Player B. A raises to 850 with KJo. It is folded around to B who calls.

Flop(2200) Q92 rainbow

B checks, A bets 1625 and B thinks for a little while and calls

Turn(5450) 6 completing the rainbow

B bets out 1600 leaving over 4500 behind. A has 5600 total at this stage.

Action to A and why?
What hand do we put B on?

Hectorjelly

as soon as B made that bet I would reverse my opinion of him as being "solid"

I dont really know what he has, anything from TJ, KQ to a Set. If he will lay down KQ here I think a push is probably best.

bops

i hate when hands go like this - imo a fold is probably best

bottom feeder

this looks like an interesting hand, would like to hear other peoples opinions....

connie147

Player B's turn bet looks to me like a biggish hand looking to be reraised. Could have 99 or 22 and wants you to push. You still have enough chips to play on with. You mighnt be able to push him off a marginal hand and if he calls with KQ, your drawing to 4 outs. Tough spot but I think its a fold.

You've shown no sign of weakness in the hand, your only read of him is as solid,so what hand is he leading with? Its either a set, Q9(which I doubt on your read) 10-J. or KQ. Surely he hasn't air the way he played it.I think you have to fold.

delanec8

Ok so i was Player B in this hand and bottomfeeder was Player A. I had 66 and insta called his push on the turn. Results dont matter:)

I should say that i would probably not make this bet against anyone i have logged significant hours in with in the SE. My thinking when making the turn bet was that if Wes had an overpair or AQ i was probably getting his stack anyway, whether i CRAI or pushed or led out with a proper bet.

I felt if i weak lead, and leave enough behind, that he felt he could push me off QJs,KQs,QTs,JJ,TT,JTs,A9s (all hands i would consider some random punter to have if he played a hand in this way), that i could commit him with a lot worse. I thought my bet asked to be reraised but since i hadn't played much with Wes, he didn't know i wouldn't play any of the hands mentioned above like this at all.

I know i have been in similar situations to Wes before, and sometimes have done exactly what he did, and i think it works a fair bit of the time because in general when someone makes that bet they do have JJ,TT,JTs,A9s,weakish Qs, and have to fold. As i said i wouldn't have any of these hands in this spot but Wes wasn't to know. It is a very rare bet for me to make.

The real reason for the thread was to get people's opinions on my turn bet, and what a ridiculous bet like that usually means to people, considering our stack sizes.

If anyone has any other comments on how i played the hand or the reasoning for my turn bet, flame away i don't mind.

AKQJ10

connie147 wrote:

Player B's turn bet looks to me like a biggish hand looking to be reraised.

I think that in a tourney this bet is looking for the player behind to shove. If he is a solid player he is never bad enough to make that turn bet unless he thinks he has the best hand.

EDIT: Player B is bad enough! He just got lucky and made a good bet.

Hectorjelly

I think a check has almost the same effect, hes probably going to bet 4 or 5k and possibly call a push, Also any decent player is going to flat call with AQ, KQ or overpair, and then your not going to get their stack since the pot will be too small. Its just a bad bet no matter what way you look at it. It cant really be part of a balanced game because its never a bluff.

Wes is a the perfect target to try and induce a bluff from though.

delanec8

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think a check has almost the same effect, hes probably going to bet 4 or 5k and possibly call a push, Also any decent player is going to flat call with AQ, KQ or overpair, and then your not going to get their stack since the pot will be too small. Its just a bad bet no matter what way you look at it. It cant really be part of a balanced game because its never a bluff.

Wes is a the perfect target to try and induce a bluff from though.

The pot will be plenty big enough to push the river if flatcalled on the turn. The pot would be 8600 and Wes would have 4000 left which i would intend on pushing in on the river.

I am not making a case for it being good as far as a balanced game goes, because its not. As i said i wouldn't make this bet against anyone who has played a fair bit with me because, like you said, its never a bluff. The fact that i hadn't played much with Wes made the decision for me.

LOL @ AKQJ10

BrokenArrows

delanec8 wrote:

...Results dont matter:)

10 on river then?? ul

bottom feeder

lol cormac, as i was saying to you i played this hand so bad, i had no reads on you but do know you are a very good player.
tbh the way the hand played out i didnt put you no where near a set..... imo you played the hand very well and i just sucked out on you...


i actually put you on a Q with a good kicker, but taught you'd be able to lay it down as it was for your tourney life, looking back now i should have seen the set as the bet on the turn was screaming to be raised, [super bet] ...

the 10 on the river to give me a straight... i was about to muck my cards before the river was dealt as i didn't want to show but olliek said wes you might have outs. i will think next time before i try make a move with KJo.

anyway cormac ul dude.

ollyk1

delanec8 wrote:

I don't normally post many hands here but i thought this hand was pretty interesting and probably will create differing opinions (i may be wrong, it could be clear cut to most, but i don't think so). Anyway i was wondering what people would do in player A's situation? I think it's close between pushing and folding

A and B have only played a couple of times together, but would not have any reason to think the other was not fairly solid.

Level 4: 100/200

Effective Stacks
Player A: 8100 (UTG+3)
Player B: 8600 (UTG+2)

UTG+1 limps as does Player B. A raises to 850 with KJo. It is folded around to B who calls.

Flop(2200) Q92 rainbow

B checks, A bets 1625 and B thinks for a little while and calls

Turn(5450) 6 completing the rainbow

B bets out 1600 leaving over 4500 behind. A has 5600 total at this stage.

Action to A and why?
What hand do we put B on?

For me this hand wasn't that interesting except for the result. :eek:

Bottom line for me was that you didn't have a plan if you missed on the turn. Wes was all set for firing another bullet and you seemed weak and you were pretty weak. You cold called off a large percentage of your stack with the look of a guy who was going to fold unless he hit a two outer on the turn. I think you either have to ship it or fold the flop.

As for weak leading the 6 when you hit it, I think if Wes could have seen you (i.e. it wasn't a seat 1 on seat 9 battle) you may have given him a chance to get away from it now that you hit your miracle card. As played he went with his read of preflop and postflop weakness and stuck it in confident in his knowledge that he had a gutshot to the nuts! lol

Nice playing with you Delanec btw. I've played with you a few times but I wasn't sure of your boards name.

bottom feeder

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think a check has almost the same effect, hes probably going to bet 4 or 5k and possibly call a push, Also any decent player is going to flat call with AQ, KQ or overpair, and then your not going to get their stack since the pot will be too small. Its just a bad bet no matter what way you look at it. It cant really be part of a balanced game because its never a bluff.

Wes is a the perfect target to try and induce a bluff from though.

this is so true and it worked....

BigCityBanker

bottom feeder wrote:

i will think next time before i try make a move with KJo.

Wes, you have it all wrong - KJo is a monster.

ollyk1

bottom feeder wrote:

lol cormac, as i was saying to you i played this hand so bad, i had no reads on you but do know you are a very good player.
tbh the way the hand played out i didnt put you no where near a set..... imo you played the hand very well and i just sucked out on you...


i actually put you on a Q with a good kicker, but taught you'd be able to lay it down as it was for your tourney life, looking back now i should have seen the set as the bet on the turn was screaming to be raised, [super bet] ...

the 10 on the river to give me a straight... i was about to muck my cards before the river was dealt as i didn't want to show but olliek said wes you might have outs. i will think next time before i try make a move with KJo.

anyway cormac ul dude.

Shaking my head in disbelief here. You thought he was strong and you tried to get him off it with 50% of his tank in there??? :eek: :eek: I thought his hand looked exactly like an underpair on the flop and you felt that way too.

I don't think I stole your blinds half enough Wes on reflection!!

bottom feeder

ollyk1 wrote:

For me this hand wasn't that interesting except for the result. :eek:

Bottom line for me was that you didn't have a plan if you missed on the turn. Wes was all set for firing another bullet and you seemed weak and you were pretty weak. You cold called off a large percentage of your stack with the look of a guy who was going to fold unless he hit a two outer on the turn. I think you either have to ship it or fold the flop.

As for weak leading the 6 when you hit it, I think if Wes could have seen you (i.e. it wasn't a seat 1 on seat 9 battle) you may have given him a chance to get away from it now that you hit your miracle card. As played he went with his read of preflop and postflop weakness and stuck it in confident in his knowledge that he had a gutshot to the nuts! lol
Nice playing with you Delanec btw. I've played with you a few times but I wasn't sure of your boards name.

bottom feeder

BigCityBanker wrote:

Wes, you have it all wrong - KJo is a monster.

Noel its the way you play them

bottom feeder

ollie we have to get our stories straight man...

Hectorjelly

delanec8 wrote:

The pot will be plenty big enough to push the river if flatcalled on the turn. The pot would be 8600 and Wes would have 4000 left which i would intend on pushing in on the river.

I must of been asleep this morning, I didnt notice either the 6 was on the turn. Why call the flop?

delanec8

ollyk1 wrote:

For me this hand wasn't that interesting except for the result. :eek:

Bottom line for me was that you didn't have a plan if you missed on the turn. Wes was all set for firing another bullet and you seemed weak and you were pretty weak. You cold called off a large percentage of your stack with the look of a guy who was going to fold unless he hit a two outer on the turn. I think you either have to ship it or fold the flop.

As for weak leading the 6 when you hit it, I think if Wes could have seen you (i.e. it wasn't a seat 1 on seat 9 battle) you may have given him a chance to get away from it now that you hit your miracle card. As played he went with his read of preflop and postflop weakness and stuck it in confident in his knowledge that he had a gutshot to the nuts! lol

Nice playing with you Delanec btw. I've played with you a few times but I wasn't sure of your boards name.

My plan for the turn if i missed was if he bet a reasonable amount i would fold the hand and give him credit. Im not sure what i did to give away how weak i was but obviously there was something. I'll understand if you don't want to reveal it:) . Probably full of live tells but i think i act relatively the same when i have a monster or a bluff(not breathing). Wes wasn't looking at me so its negligible whether i looked weak or not, of course weak means strong but then i know that, so maybe weak means weak etc and it gets very confusing after that.

The board was very dry, so there are no draws i can really have. I am overrepresenting my hand by making the call and figured if he had missed Wes would slowdown and the river would either go check check or i would check call a non ace or king, more than likely. Apparently i am wrong in thinking Wes would have slowed down.

Nice playing with you too Olly, seat 2 yeah??

delanec8

Hectorjelly wrote:

I must of been asleep this morning, I didnt notice either the 6 was on the turn. Why call the flop?

The board was very dry and he cbets on this flop almost 100% of the time. Im not ready to go broke with an underpair by pushing but i think folding is a little weak aswell. I don't particularly like calling but i like raising or folding less. Weak passive ftw:) .

EDIT: Maybe pushing is better; he calls me with maybe 5 hands in his range(AA,KK,QQ,AQ,KQ)

Gholimoli

i was the first limper in this hand.

anyway i think the call on the flop with 66 was very bad.
if you think you are ahead raise him but i suggest a fold here .
a call is just to costly against some 1 who is not a total nit.

most players can often bet the turn even if they dont hit just by using position and unless you hit your 6 you are checking any turn.

i didnt like the bet on the turn by you at all cuz often you are taking away from the other players bluff frequincy.as in he will now not bluff due to the fact that he thinks he does not have any FE.
and also this is a perfect spot to induce a bluff.

i thought Wes push here was extreamly bad as to me the bet looked like exactly what it was.

ollyk1

delanec8 wrote:

My plan for the turn if i missed was if he bet a reasonable amount i would fold the hand and give him credit. Im not sure what i did to give away how weak i was but obviously there was something. I'll understand if you don't want to reveal it:) . Probably full of live tells but i think i act relatively the same when i have a monster or a bluff(not breathing). Wes wasn't looking at me so its negligible whether i looked weak or not, of course weak means strong but then i know that, so maybe weak means weak etc and it gets very confusing after that.

The board was very dry, so there are no draws i can really have. I am overrepresenting my hand by making the call and figured if he had missed Wes would slowdown and the river would either go check check or i would check call a non ace or king, more than likely. Apparently i am wrong in thinking Wes would have slowed down.

Nice playing with you too Olly, seat 2 yeah??

I was in seat 3. Strewelpeter was seat 2 and Wes seat 1 as i recall.

I don't know if it was a specific live tell but you didn't seem happy calling at any stage until the turn and maybe you do that with a monster too but that would be very good acting.....

Goodluck2me

Gholimoli wrote:

if you think you are ahead raise him but i suggest a fold here .
a call is just to costly against some 1 who is not a total nit.
.

i disagree with this advice. you think your ahead why raise? your turning your hand into a bluff. call and reevaluate the turn is better.

Also a call is WAY worse here against a total nit, its becomes more a neccessity the laggier they play.

NITS dont cont bet, so youd never be ahead.

Hectorjelly

goodluck2me wrote:

i disagree with this advice. you think your ahead why raise? your turning your hand into a bluff. call and reevaluate the turn is better.

Also a call is WAY worse here against a total nit, its becomes more a neccessity the laggier they play.

NITS dont cont bet, so youd never be ahead.

Raise because there are a tonne of hands in between that are beating us but cant call a raise, and also because we have no idea what cards we dont want to fall. If we had QQ calling would be ok, not with 66

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

Raise because there are a tonne of hands in between that are beating us but cant call a raise, and also because we have no idea what cards we dont want to fall. If we had QQ calling would be ok, not with 66

just looking at it again, we are oop, so should we check raise? or check call or bet out? hwo much?

Russh

For me, Player B needs to bet out on flop here probably what Player A has bet (good bet BTW). If your called or raised and don't hit..your done..If you hit..push...if he has a hand your getting the chips..if he hasn't or if he's drawing he may quit..

I can't flat call on this flop...bet out or be prepared to muck to a bet..

Gholimoli

goodluck2me wrote:

i disagree with this advice. you think your ahead why raise? your turning your hand into a bluff. call and reevaluate the turn is better.

Also a call is WAY worse here against a total nit, its becomes more a neccessity the laggier they play.

NITS dont cont bet, so youd never be ahead.

this is extreamly bad post due to reasons HJ gave.
check raisin is also very bad here if u think u are ahead cuz he may take the free card and not bet.

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

Raise because there are a tonne of hands in between that are beating us but cant call a raise, and also because we have no idea what cards we dont want to fall. If we had QQ calling would be ok, not with 66

you mean on the turn or flop?

Goodluck2me

Gholimoli wrote:

this is extreamly bad post due to reasons HJ gave.
check raisin is also very bad here if u think u are ahead cuz he may take the free card and not bet.

extremely bad? your some man for the hyperbole.
Please explain to me then how a call here is better against a NIT than a LAG?

Raise because there are a tonne of hands in between that are beating us but cant call a raise,

So you agree we are effectively bluffing now then?thats what i was saying. If this is the way we want to play it then it doesnt matter we have 66. if you want to get to showdown and think you are ahead then calling > raising. for winning the pot obv the line coudl be different.

Gholimoli

goodluck2me wrote:

extremely bad? your some man for the hyperbole.
Please explain to me then how a call here is better against a NIT than a LAG?

So you agree we are effectively bluffing now then?thats what i was saying. If this is the way we want to play it then it doesnt matter we have 66. if you want to get to showdown and think you are ahead then calling > raising. for winning the pot obv the line coudl be different.

if he is a total nit then you can call and know that he will not fire another barrel on the turn as a bluff.
you know that if he bets the turn then you are deffo beat and that he will check something like AK,or another hand that you are currently ahead of.
that's the only reason why you would ever call here in this spot and TBH i dont think there are that many nits in the game.

again as i said in the other post if you think your 66 is good here then you have to push cuz its not a situation where you are miles ahead or behind where if you are ahead then villain has only a few outs.

you could be ahead here but basically any card above 6 can be a bad card for you on the turn and the problem is that you dont know it.
so villain can either hit or represent the turn or river card as a total bluff and you have no way of knowing which is which.
calling here is very bad as i said if you think you are ahead.

Goodluck2me

Gholimoli wrote:

if he is a total nit then you can call and know that he will not fire another barrel on the turn as a bluff.
you know that if he bets the turn then you are deffo beat and that he will check something like AK,or another hand that you are currently ahead of.
that's the only reason why you would ever call here in this spot and TBH i dont think there are that many nits in the game.

again as i said in the other post if you think your 66 is good here then you have to push cuz its not a situation where you are miles ahead or behind where if you are ahead then villain has only a few outs.

you could be ahead here but basically any card above 6 can be a bad card for you on the turn and the problem is that you dont know it.
so villain can either hit or represent the turn or river card as a total bluff and you have no way of knowing which is which.
calling here is very bad as i said if you think you are ahead.

fair point. the only thing i would say though is that, the fact that you think you are ahead isnt all that relevant. You are bluffing if you raise here. the point i was tryin to make was that if you wanted it to get to showdown and you thought you were ahead, then you should call. personally i believe a raise is better because our line looks stronger, but i dont raise because i think i haev the best hand, i raise becuase i think i can get him to fold a better one.

delanec8

Gholimoli wrote:

if he is a total nit then you can call and know that he will not fire another barrel on the turn as a bluff.
you know that if he bets the turn then you are deffo beat and that he will check something like AK,or another hand that you are currently ahead of.
that's the only reason why you would ever call here in this spot and TBH i dont think there are that many nits in the game.

again as i said in the other post if you think your 66 is good here then you have to push cuz its not a situation where you are miles ahead or behind where if you are ahead then villain has only a few outs.

you could be ahead here but basically any card above 6 can be a bad card for you on the turn and the problem is that you dont know it.
so villain can either hit or represent the turn or river card as a total bluff and you have no way of knowing which is which.
calling here is very bad as i said if you think you are ahead.

While I agree that its probably a push on flop, i don't think that everyone but a total nit bets any turn here as a bluff, considering the stack sizes. Any normal bet puts him almost allin, and because of that, i felt that unless he had a hand he would slowdown.

My problem is that he would slowdown with JJ,TT,A9,88,77 and still have me beat and this is why a push is better as he would more than likely fold these hands, and i see that now.

Gholimoli

goodluck2me wrote:

fair point. the only thing i would say though is that, the fact that you think you are ahead isnt all that relevant. You are bluffing if you raise here. the point i was tryin to make was that if you wanted it to get to showdown and you thought you were ahead, then you should call. personally i believe a raise is better because our line looks stronger, but i dont raise because i think i haev the best hand, i raise becuase i think i can get him to fold a better one.

you are missing the point here.

OP said in his original post that he called the flop bet cuz he thought he was ahead.
my argument is that it is a mistake to call a bet here if you think you are head and you should shove to protect your hand and win the pot .

you are saying that you will raise here to get him to fold a better hand.
how can you think you are ahead and at the same time thinking you can get him to fold a better hand than yours?

check raising there flop may lead to villain folding a better hand but that is another argument.
what i was discussing was how to best play the hand if you think your 66 is good not if you think its no good.

Goodluck2me

Gholimoli wrote:

you are missing the point here.

OP said in his original post that he called the flop bet cuz he thought he was ahead.
my argument is that it is a mistake to call a bet here if you think you are head and you should shove to protect your hand and win the pot .

you are saying that you will raise here to get him to fold a better hand.
how can you think you are ahead and at the same time thinking you can get him to fold a better hand than yours?

check raising there flop may lead to villain folding a better hand but that is another argument.
what i was discussing was how to best play the hand if you think your 66 is good not if you think its no good.

i think we`re looking at it from 2 perspective, im lookin for value your looking at it from protection. If were ahead, calling is best for value let him push the turn its unlikey to have helped them, but its best to protect i agree. easier to call the push on the turn if its lower than a 9, only 2 of cards above T are his, so even then it quite likely we`re still ahead. another thing is that if a J/T comes and we were ahead before, they will hardly push with one bcoz our hand looks like a queen, no?
Also i would raise here anyway for reasons above, i just dont think calling is too bad only if we think we`re ahead.

Hectorjelly

goodluck2me wrote:

you mean on the turn or flop?

on the flop

Goodluck2me

Hectorjelly wrote:

on the flop

you obv realise QQ has a set? a call is pretty much always better with QQ, if we think we`re ahead with a pair of 66, why would we get rid of him? whats your line here with JJ and KQ? on the flop

Hectorjelly

goodluck2me wrote:

you obv realise QQ has a set? a call is pretty much always better with QQ, if we think we`re ahead with a pair of 66, why would we get rid of him? whats your line here with JJ and KQ? on the flop

Sorry I meant JJ, as in an underpair to the top pair on the board.

The reason I think calling with 66 on the flop with the intention of going to showdown is bad, is that wes will always have at least 6 outs, and we dont know what they are. Crucially, the OP says he called the bet on the flop because wes c-bets a lot. Thats not really enough info to call a bet on the flop. Wes actually had 10 outs on the flop to beat us. All the time we are behind wes is drawing very live, but we only have 2 outs to improve when behind. If we just call there are a lot of hands that currently beat us but would of folded to a raise. IE 77 88 and so on. It just isnt worth calling here, when a raise is going to be an effective bluff. If he has something like A7 he will never call a raise, but against our hand he has 6 outs.

If I wanted to play the hand, I would just make a raise on the flop. I would of definitely considered just dumping it preflop. Wes range is quite wide so we dont know we are getting paid off if we hit a set, and we are out of position which makes the whole hand crap.

With JJ especially calling the flop would be good, its a perfect opportunity to let wes overplay/bluff or whatever. KQ similarly

Gholimoli

goodluck2me wrote:

i think we`re looking at it from 2 perspective, im lookin for value your looking at it from protection. If were ahead, calling is best for value let him push the turn its unlikey to have helped them, but its best to protect i agree. easier to call the push on the turn if its lower than a 9, only 2 of cards above T are his, so even then it quite likely we`re still ahead. another thing is that if a J/T comes and we were ahead before, they will hardly push with one bcoz our hand looks like a queen, no?
Also i would raise here anyway for reasons above, i just dont think calling is too bad only if we think we`re ahead.

Protecting the current pot and building the pot bigger are not two different views.
At the end of the day we are looking for the play that has the highest EV for us so you can t really say we are looking at the hand with different views.
While I agree that flat calling with 66 will further build the pot ,I disagree that it is the right play and I believe it’s EV is deffo less than shoving here(if we think we are ahead or that villain can fold a better hand).
Building the pot with a vulnerable hand that can potentially already be behind or if its not villain has 40% or so chance of out drawing is not good poker.

Goodluck2me

Gholimoli wrote:

Protecting the current pot and building the pot bigger are not two different views.
At the end of the day we are looking for the play that has the highest EV for us so you can t really say we are looking at the hand with different views.
While I agree that flat calling with 66 will further build the pot ,I disagree that it is the right play and I believe it’s EV is deffo less than shoving here(if we think we are ahead or that villain can fold a better hand).
Building the pot with a vulnerable hand that can potentially already be behind or if its not villain has 40% or so chance of out drawing is not good poker.

Sorry I meant JJ, as in an underpair to the top pair on the board.

yeah i figured as much, you call a push on the turn with JJ, say blank 2s?

The reason I think calling with 66 on the flop with the intention of going to showdown is bad, is that wes will always have at least 6 outs, and we dont know what they are. Crucially, the OP says he called the bet on the flop because wes c-bets a lot. Thats not really enough info to call a bet on the flop. Wes actually had 10 outs on the flop to beat us. All the time we are behind wes is drawing very live, but we only have 2 outs to improve when behind. If we just call there are a lot of hands that currently beat us but would of folded to a raise. IE 77 88 and so on. It just isnt worth calling here, when a raise is going to be an effective bluff. If he has something like A7 he will never call a raise, but against our hand he has 6 outs.

If I wanted to play the hand, I would just make a raise on the flop. I would of definitely considered just dumping it preflop. Wes range is quite wide so we dont know we are getting paid off if we hit a set, and we are out of position which makes the whole hand crap.

With JJ especially calling the flop would be good, its a perfect opportunity to let wes overplay/bluff or whatever. KQ

both very valid points as ive said already i would raise here too as the norm but calling maybe 10% of the time isnt bad as a variation. nice to see some proper discussion though for a change. (at least on tournments). ty